Do you believe in evolution?

[itom37]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Fore-knowledge does not exclude Free Will.
I can imagine where you're intending to go with that. But to me, it seems that if god knows what exactly what I'll be doing at some point in the future, in addition to knowing every intricate detail about how I arrived to that point, my free will is severely compromised if not completely absent. How can I say that I have any sort of power over making any decision if the entire course of my life is laid out for me? Free will, to me, is the idea that I can make any decision at any point in time. If there is a god who knows what my decision will be, I can hardly say that that is true.

 

[darknes]

Originally Posted by Jerthunter
I think too many people get caught up on this, "What are the chances" arguement. But if you were to win the lottery lets say, it wouldn't matter what the chances where because it happened. So, sure, it might have been highly unlikely that actions would unfold like this but since they did it shouldn't matter that it was unlikely.
But the chances are SOOO small, it would be like winning the lottery three days in a row. I'm pretty sure if that happened, the cops would be knocking on your door.

 

[itom37]

Originally Posted by DeltaBlack22
Call it what you want - its the definition of the types of evolution.
yeah the definition is fine, but using those two terms to somehow make people believe they are unrelated and that one is not made up of the other is misleading.

 

[deltablack22]

Originally Posted by itom37
I can imagine where you're intending to go with that. But to me, it seems that if god knows what exactly what I'll be doing at some point in the future, in addition to knowing every intricate detail about how I arrived to that point, my free will is severely compromised if not completely absent. How can I say that I have any sort of power over making any decision if the entire course of my life is laid out for me? Free will, to me, is the idea that I can make any decision at any point in time. If there is a god who knows what my decision will be, I can hardly say that that is true.

If I have prior knowledge of your activities during any given day does that negate the fact that you have free will to carry out those activites?

 

[darknes]

Originally Posted by itom37
I can imagine where you're intending to go with that. But to me, it seems that if god knows what exactly what I'll be doing at some point in the future, in addition to knowing every intricate detail about how I arrived to that point, my free will is severely compromised if not completely absent. How can I say that I have any sort of power over making any decision if the entire course of my life is laid out for me? Free will, to me, is the idea that I can make any decision at any point in time. If there is a god who knows what my decision will be, I can hardly say that that is true.
Did you read my explanation?
God lives outside of time. I remember reading a good explanation somewhere, but God knows everything; Yet at the same time, we have the free will to make our own decisions. God isn't a fortune teller, all time is the present to him.

 

[itom37]

Originally Posted by Darknes
But the chances are SOOO small, it would be like winning the lottery three days in a row. I'm pretty sure if that happened, the cops would be knocking on your door.
So this is a truly silly analogy, but if the lottery is won by someone every week, over the course of 15 billion years (appx age of the universe) everyone on earth now (est. 6 billion) would win the lottery 130 times. The point is evolution has had a helluva long time to work itself out.

 

[jerthunter]

Originally Posted by Darknes
But the chances are SOOO small, it would be like winning the lottery three days in a row. I'm pretty sure if that happened, the cops would be knocking on your door.
There was a congressman who has now won the lottery 3 times, not in a row but I thought I would mention it.
It doesn't matter how unlikely something is, if it happens it happens. Me being born is very unlikely but here I am. I do not question my existence just because it was unlikely.

 

[jerthunter]

Well I would love to stay and spend my time discussing this, unfortunately I need to get some sleep so that I can wake up all bright eyed and bushy tailed so that I can go listen to one of those crazy people who think they have found fossils of human ancestors in Ethiopia teach.
Good luck everyone.

 

[bill109]

in bio we learned tht whales actually have a vestigal hip bone..
which they dont use..
this has to hint to something.. i mean come on!
btw my post number is 109.. wierdd lol

 

[deltablack22]

Originally Posted by itom37
yeah the definition is fine, but using those two terms to somehow make people believe they are unrelated and that one is not made up of the other is misleading.
They ARE completely unrelated.
The concept of micro-evolution - or diversification of species - is a fact of nature. Species do vary and change, but only on a small scale. We have many examples of Darwin's finches and even the breeding history of dogs which supports the notion of micro-evolution.
Macro-evolution would be more like: rock, protozoa, fish, lizard, bird, etc., etc., human...

 

[itom37]

Originally Posted by Darknes
Did you read my explanation?
God lives outside of time. I remember reading a good explanation somewhere, but God knows everything; Yet at the same time, we have the free will to make our own decisions. God isn't a fortune teller, all time is the present to him.
I read it... I get what you're trying to say, but I think it's an illogical way to address the issue. Who says god "lives outside of time" and even if that were true and somehow made sense, how does it bolster the idea that we have free will? To me, if we are at all times living in the past present and future, then every time we approach a situation in one time frame we've already made that same decision an infinite number of times... this is free will?
(I apologize if i misunderstand you. The "all time is present to him" bit made me think of the tralfamadorians of slaughterhouse-five. it does seem that that's what you mean to say for god's point of view, at least.)

 

[nietzsche]

Originally Posted by itom37
I read it... I get what you're trying to say, but I think it's an illogical way to address the issue. Who says god "lives outside of time" and even if that were true and somehow made sense, how does it bolster the idea that we have free will? To me, if we are at all times living in the past present and future, then every time we approach a situation in one time frame we've already made that same decision an infinite number of times... this is free will?
(I apologize if i misunderstand you. The "all time is present to him" bit made me think of the tralfamadorians of slaughterhouse-five. it does seem that that's what you mean to say for god's point of view, at least.)
hey sorry to be so off topic, but am i the only one seeing that you only have 0 posts???? weirdddd

 

[deltablack22]

Originally Posted by nietzsche
hey sorry to be so off topic, but am i the only one seeing that you only have 0 posts???? weirdddd
Banned maybe? I see "0" too. Thats what believing in evolution gets ya...

 

[itom37]

Originally Posted by DeltaBlack22
They ARE completely unrelated.
The concept of micro-evolution - or diversification of species - is a fact of nature. Species do vary and change, but only on a small scale. We have many examples of Darwin's finches and even the breeding history of dogs which supports the notion of micro-evolution.
Macro-evolution would be more like: rock, protozoa, fish, lizard, bird, etc., etc., human...
Microevolution results in macroevolution... even if you don't believe that macroevolution occurs, this relationship is clearly implicit in the idea of macroevolution.
I still struggle with why it's such a leap to get beyond "microevolution" and conceive "macroevolution". I think it's because microevolution is much less easy to deny since it's observable in human lifetime. None of us will live long enough to see the day that great danes and chihuahuas will no longer be able to mate (with human assistance, which is already basically required) but it will happen as these two sub-species are reproductively isolated. It'll take awhile, but if those species persist, they will change dramatically and perhaps give rise to species that are as different as a lizard and a fish. It's just not observable over the course of a human's lifetime.
there are plenty of examples of speciation events occurring since the concept was conceived. subspecies give rise to distinct species... it's only a matter of time before distinct genera evolve and then families and so on...
ps... explain the evolution of rocks to me ;-)

 

[meleerock]

Originally Posted by reefreak29
and john kerry would have won the election if he didnt lose
lol

 

[deltablack22]

Originally Posted by itom37
ps... explain the evolution of rocks to me ;-)
You see, what happens is, you have a rock, and then more rocks in space, and then the rocks come together, and the "BANG", and then all of a sudden from the rocks the life is formed. That is your beautiful theory in a nutshell.
Its all bogus anyway, nothing I say on a saltwater fish board is going to convince you otherwise. I believe in a young earth and that in and of itself doesnt support Macro-evolution. There is plenty of scientific evidence that supports a young earth. Its actually a really interesting theory that you might want to look into; broaden your horizons if nothing else.

 

[darknes]

Originally Posted by itom37
I read it... I get what you're trying to say, but I think it's an illogical way to address the issue. Who says god "lives outside of time" and even if that were true and somehow made sense, how does it bolster the idea that we have free will? To me, if we are at all times living in the past present and future, then every time we approach a situation in one time frame we've already made that same decision an infinite number of times... this is free will?
(I apologize if i misunderstand you. The "all time is present to him" bit made me think of the tralfamadorians of slaughterhouse-five. it does seem that that's what you mean to say for god's point of view, at least.)
I recently read a book called "The Science of God" by Gerald L. Schroeder. Yes, this is written by a theist physicist, but it addresses some very good questions including "How can we have free will if God is omnipotent and knows the future?"
I don't have time to type out his whole answer, but the book is a very good read if you are interested. It also addresses statistics on random mutations, and different concepts of evolution.

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by reefreak29
Allow me one last argument for God’s existence. How do I know God exists? I know God exists because I speak to Him every day. I do not audibly hear Him speaking back to me, but I sense His presence, I feel His leading, I know His love, I desire His grace. Things have occurred in my life that have no other possible explanation other than God. God has so miraculously saved me and changed my life that I cannot help but to acknowledge and praise His existence. None of these arguments in and of themselves can persuade anyone who refuses to acknowledge what is so plainly clear. In the end, God’s existence must be accepted by faith (Hebrews 11:6). Faith in God is not a blind leap into the dark, it is safe step into a well-lit room where 90% of people are already standing.
Reply With Quote
God's existance is a "leap of faith". I asked my cousin, who is an athiast, If I jumped off a cliff, and asked God to save me, if I suddenly grew wings and fly back to the top...would you believe in God then?
She replied..."No".
I praise and thank our heavenly father every day for what he has blessed me with. NOT all he has given me are good, mind you. I once thought that if you asked Jesus for anything he would give it to you, but that was a very misguided lesson I learned in Sunday school. Just as I need to be a stern, but loving parent to my children, so must our heavenly father be stern, and just with us. I threw God out of my life when he failed to save the life of our puppy. That was over 20 years ago.
I met my Husband, Brian, when we were 14. His family is devoted to Christ. After dating for 2 years i accepted god back into my life, but I was still angry at God. Why hadn't he been there when I needed him!!!!
Brian always reminded me, pray to our Lord when you are in need.
I always smiled and nodded, but inwardly I did not believe that God would help....but I loved Brian, so i tried to learn to love God again....
I have always been a stubbron as they come...I wanted PROOF from God that he was there...
I used to go out into the hay fields on my parents farm and scream at the sky. At God...and how angry I was that if he existed why didn't he have the guts to make his presence known...oh sure...on paper..in a book....NOPE~I wanted physical proof of God's presence.
I waited...I prayed about it...half heartedly...
then one cold January morning... it was hardly 10 degrees above zero, in my senior year...I was late for school. My parents let me park my old dodge in the garage to make sure it would start.
I threw my book bag into the back seat...and started the car. I closed the door, but it wouldn't shut...moisture must have gotten into the lock somehow, and now it was frozen and wouldn't close...Grand..JUST GRAND...now I'd get written up for missing my first block class...my frustration was boiling over when I heard Brian's calming voice reminding me~ "Rykna, if you ever need help...pray to God."
Yeah right I thought

...okay fine...I'll humor Brian...
I stopped trying to slam the driver's door shut and left it hanging open and bent my head in prayer...a very sarcastic pray i might add..."Dear Lord, i pray you will close my door so i can get to school on time img" /> amen...humph I thought..like that's going to help...
I reached back to get my seat belt on before I tried to close the door again. As I did, the door slammed shut.
I know who shut my door that day. God had had quite enough of his little stubbron red head...so Rykna..you want proof...here it is my dear.
The garage was closed except for the door, which faced south..so nothing of this earth closed the car door for me.
Faith is not something you get out of a gum ball machine. It's not something you can buy or earn. God is here every day with us. You have to listen, he speaks softly...yet with direction and love. I could tell you of countless experiences and conversations I have had with God, but it is up to you to take that "Leap of Faith." If faith were tangible, then Jesus's sacrifice and death on the cross would be worthless.
Life is a journey, taken by all creatures of this earth. We know it all to well, babies are born...we grow up, we grow old, and we die. In the short time we have here on this earth it is up to you who you choose to travel with. God, and my faith is the first thing I choose to take with me when I step out into the world.
I pray that all of you who are searching, traveling, wandering and wondering...will take that "Leap of Faith".
In Jesus Christ's blessed name I pray,
Amen.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by DeltaBlack22
I believe in a young earth and that in and of itself doesnt support Macro-evolution. There is plenty of scientific evidence that supports a young earth. Its actually a really interesting theory that you might want to look into; broaden your horizons if nothing else.

The "young earth" has Biblical explanation, too. Adam was not created as an infant. He was created as a man. Had you "dated" Adam his first day on earth you would have found him to be older than 1 day. Yet Adam was but one day old. God created the earth in an aged fashion, meaning that on day one it was as if it were very old.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by Jmick
PLEASE show some evidence and don't base it on faith.
In my opinion it takes much more faith to believe that the universe was formed from nothing (which has never occured since) than to believe in God.
The Bible is a tool to help us know God...not a history of the universe textbook. I have a peace that is beyond words. I always feared death. Now I will welcome it when it comes because I know that it is only the beginning. My 90 yrs here is a blink in the eye of eternity.
If you research the evidence (on both sides) for youself with an open mind it is hard to accept the evolution of species to new species.
This is why we have endangered species lists. If these animals would just evolve they would be fine.