Electricians? Grounding probe or no grounding probe?
- Thread starter sleasia
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phishface
Guest
OK Thanks. Ill have to get one. Couldnt hurt. Safety first.
wattsupdoc
Active Member
If your concerned about it use it. However it can cause a false sense of security if you dont have an allready adequete ground in your home. Code states that a cold water pipe ground must be supplemented. This is because it may not have a potential of 25 ohms or less to earth. In reality most homes only have 1 ground rod at the service and then a cold water bond. The ground rod outside may not be adequate either. It should have less than 25 ohms to earth also. Here in the Ozarks at least we dont allways meet that requirement. i allways install prefferably a euffer ground wich is encased in the concrete footer and bearing down with all the homes weight. This is the ultimate ground. However since theres no way of doing this on an existing building what we do is add an additional ground rod at the service and connect the two together. (min. of 6' apart) Now you have a good ground. If you dont have an adequete ground then even with the probe you CAN BE SHOCKED! Period!
What we are concerned about is potential to ground. Or for a better word Earth. You're meter can read depending on the cirumstance either way you put it in the tank. Not likely to read very well with both probes in it, but it will read some eddy currents.Too many scenarios to describe here. Having the probe in the tank would be a good thing I suppose as long as you have an adeqeute ground. Just connecting to the ground wire on the receptical would not be the ultimate connection. However it may be adequaete.If the ground is lost between the recep and the earth then it would be of no use. Might not ever happen but its possible. Also If you have an inadequete ground at the service and a short (ground fault) occures elswhere in the circuit then you've just energized the tank water. To properly install a probe go to the outside of the home with a copper solid wire #6 prefferablly and connect it to the services ground rod then add the other ground rod as described.
Use the gfi if you like, it wont hurt anything except maybe trip while your gone and possibly cause havoc on the inhabitant. (it wont reset itself). It may save you're life. If it trips find the fault and remove it. If your like me and dont want to have youre setup down for maybe 8-10 hours while youre at work or maybe while your gone on a holiday or something to come homeand find everything dead. Heres an idea. Turn everything off by flipping the switch on the powerstrip! Easy enough? Or another idea, we do routine maintenance on our setups right? Why not not install the probe, not install the gfi.and when your hands are in the tank then turn the switch off on your plug strips. Thereby eliminating the possibility of a shock. Then when you need to put your hands in it with the equipment on, plug the plug strip into your plug in gfi and then you're good to go. every time you do a water change then plug your equipment into the plug in gfi and see if anything trips. If not you're good to go. Yes theres a scenario that the gfi wont trip without the rod until it gets you but if it gets you it WILL trip without the rod. In like 1/20th of a second or so. I like the plug in GFI the best because you dont have to worry about the gfi tripping while you're gone. Course you're gonna have to crawl around you're setup to plug and unplug and can get shocked there too. Ideally you would need a seperate gfi for EVERY piece of equipment to protect it with least amount of risk. But you still need to test you're GFI periodiclly to make sure its working. Best practice of all is to turn the equipment off when you're hands are in the tank!
You can be electrocuted when making toast in the kitchen if you stick a fork down in it to get a peice of toast out. But you learned not to do that didnt yiou? So anytime you're around electricity there is a risk involved and it can be life threatening. TURN THE POWER OFF!
What we are concerned about is potential to ground. Or for a better word Earth. You're meter can read depending on the cirumstance either way you put it in the tank. Not likely to read very well with both probes in it, but it will read some eddy currents.Too many scenarios to describe here. Having the probe in the tank would be a good thing I suppose as long as you have an adeqeute ground. Just connecting to the ground wire on the receptical would not be the ultimate connection. However it may be adequaete.If the ground is lost between the recep and the earth then it would be of no use. Might not ever happen but its possible. Also If you have an inadequete ground at the service and a short (ground fault) occures elswhere in the circuit then you've just energized the tank water. To properly install a probe go to the outside of the home with a copper solid wire #6 prefferablly and connect it to the services ground rod then add the other ground rod as described.
Use the gfi if you like, it wont hurt anything except maybe trip while your gone and possibly cause havoc on the inhabitant. (it wont reset itself). It may save you're life. If it trips find the fault and remove it. If your like me and dont want to have youre setup down for maybe 8-10 hours while youre at work or maybe while your gone on a holiday or something to come homeand find everything dead. Heres an idea. Turn everything off by flipping the switch on the powerstrip! Easy enough? Or another idea, we do routine maintenance on our setups right? Why not not install the probe, not install the gfi.and when your hands are in the tank then turn the switch off on your plug strips. Thereby eliminating the possibility of a shock. Then when you need to put your hands in it with the equipment on, plug the plug strip into your plug in gfi and then you're good to go. every time you do a water change then plug your equipment into the plug in gfi and see if anything trips. If not you're good to go. Yes theres a scenario that the gfi wont trip without the rod until it gets you but if it gets you it WILL trip without the rod. In like 1/20th of a second or so. I like the plug in GFI the best because you dont have to worry about the gfi tripping while you're gone. Course you're gonna have to crawl around you're setup to plug and unplug and can get shocked there too. Ideally you would need a seperate gfi for EVERY piece of equipment to protect it with least amount of risk. But you still need to test you're GFI periodiclly to make sure its working. Best practice of all is to turn the equipment off when you're hands are in the tank!
You can be electrocuted when making toast in the kitchen if you stick a fork down in it to get a peice of toast out. But you learned not to do that didnt yiou? So anytime you're around electricity there is a risk involved and it can be life threatening. TURN THE POWER OFF!
wattsupdoc
Active Member
Originally Posted by SaltFan
Lets make this short but sweet.
If using a grounding probe, you are giving the current a way through your tank and out of it. If you are not using a probe, we are just talking about stray voltage here, its not goiong to kill you. Give you notice that its there yes. If it was that bad, it would have hard grounded the outlet and kicked out the breaker.
If your going to use a Probe, use it this way......Before doing any maintenance on your tank, Plug in your Probe first(to outlet GFCI) then probe into the water. By doing this, you jump the current out before you stick your hands into the water, thus not shocking yourself. Then when you are done, take the Probe out of the water until you need it next time. This make you guys feel better about using a Probe? But btw, I'd never use one myself. If you are using any type of tank utilizing water, and you do not have grounds on your plugs, your just plain nuts for doing this.
The groung probe if properly installed will in effect drain the current from the tank.Thats a good thing.
The current in the tank if a short occurs without the rod most likely WILL NOT triip the breaker or gfi, with the properly installed probe it most likely WILL trip the breaker or gfi. You can be killed by this sleeping giant(current in the tank) under the right circumstances. I wont get into why I know what I know because I have been accosted on other messages for stating so. But Saltfan I think you may be about a 2 or 3 year apprentice, is this so?
Lets make this short but sweet.
If using a grounding probe, you are giving the current a way through your tank and out of it. If you are not using a probe, we are just talking about stray voltage here, its not goiong to kill you. Give you notice that its there yes. If it was that bad, it would have hard grounded the outlet and kicked out the breaker.
If your going to use a Probe, use it this way......Before doing any maintenance on your tank, Plug in your Probe first(to outlet GFCI) then probe into the water. By doing this, you jump the current out before you stick your hands into the water, thus not shocking yourself. Then when you are done, take the Probe out of the water until you need it next time. This make you guys feel better about using a Probe? But btw, I'd never use one myself. If you are using any type of tank utilizing water, and you do not have grounds on your plugs, your just plain nuts for doing this.
The groung probe if properly installed will in effect drain the current from the tank.Thats a good thing.
The current in the tank if a short occurs without the rod most likely WILL NOT triip the breaker or gfi, with the properly installed probe it most likely WILL trip the breaker or gfi. You can be killed by this sleeping giant(current in the tank) under the right circumstances. I wont get into why I know what I know because I have been accosted on other messages for stating so. But Saltfan I think you may be about a 2 or 3 year apprentice, is this so?
wattsupdoc
Active Member
Originally Posted by phishface
OK Thanks. Ill have to get one. Couldnt hurt. Safety first.
Install the probe, install a plug in gfi would be my sugestion then you can just unplug the gfi before you go for an extended time.
JMO
Charlie
OK Thanks. Ill have to get one. Couldnt hurt. Safety first.
Install the probe, install a plug in gfi would be my sugestion then you can just unplug the gfi before you go for an extended time.
JMO
Charlie
shu-perman
Member
Let me ask this question....which is more harmful to the tank inhabitants...stray voltage or copper???
a grounding rod inserted into your tank will introduce copper to the water which is extremely harmful to corals but will reduce stray voltage....so which is worse??
a grounding rod inserted into your tank will introduce copper to the water which is extremely harmful to corals but will reduce stray voltage....so which is worse??
zman1
Active Member
Originally Posted by Shu-perman
Let me ask this question....which is more harmful to the tank inhabitants...stray voltage or copper???
a grounding rod inserted into your tank will introduce copper to the water which is extremely harmful to corals but will reduce stray voltage....so which is worse??
I think you might be misinterpreting wattsupdoc. The copper ground he is refering to is a earth contact ground outside and not in the tank.
Let me ask this question....which is more harmful to the tank inhabitants...stray voltage or copper???
a grounding rod inserted into your tank will introduce copper to the water which is extremely harmful to corals but will reduce stray voltage....so which is worse??
I think you might be misinterpreting wattsupdoc. The copper ground he is refering to is a earth contact ground outside and not in the tank.
zman1
Active Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
They are made of titanium or stainless steel.
I use Won heaters which have a grounded titanium heating tube, so it's sort of a two-fer. .
SCSInet - I guess I am using a ground probe and never realized it. You are spot-on with the WON titanium heaters. Just metered one of mine out.
They are made of titanium or stainless steel.
I use Won heaters which have a grounded titanium heating tube, so it's sort of a two-fer. .
SCSInet - I guess I am using a ground probe and never realized it. You are spot-on with the WON titanium heaters. Just metered one of mine out.
bang guy
Moderator
I will admit that I don't trust the GFCI not to trip when I'm gone. That's why I use two circuits for my system. I realize this isn't practical for most people but if you can swing it then it's the way to go. I have two main pumps each plugged into different circuits. The rest of the equipment is also split between the circuits where practical.
scsinet
Active Member
Yeah the two circuits thing would be a nice idea... I even have the means to do it but am too lazy to snake more romex through the walls.
Another thing with my tank that causes me concern is my water levels. I use a siphon overflow and it occasionally gets sluggish, causing water to near overflow the tank. One day it will.....
One thing I thought about trying was a voice dialer... for those of you who don't know, these dicky-doos attach to an alarm system and will call your cell phone and play a pre-recorded voice alert through the phones, so your alarm system can call you and tell you that your alarm system is going off, rather than just a central office.
Hopefully the mods won't make me take down this link since this place doesn't sell fish, but look at this: http://www.safe-mart.com/li2au.html
I'll bet it's easily doable to rig this up with a power supply so it calls you when the power cuts out, and in my case, with a float switch as well (since it's two channel) to let me know if something's amiss with my water levels.
Another thing with my tank that causes me concern is my water levels. I use a siphon overflow and it occasionally gets sluggish, causing water to near overflow the tank. One day it will.....
One thing I thought about trying was a voice dialer... for those of you who don't know, these dicky-doos attach to an alarm system and will call your cell phone and play a pre-recorded voice alert through the phones, so your alarm system can call you and tell you that your alarm system is going off, rather than just a central office.
Hopefully the mods won't make me take down this link since this place doesn't sell fish, but look at this: http://www.safe-mart.com/li2au.html
I'll bet it's easily doable to rig this up with a power supply so it calls you when the power cuts out, and in my case, with a float switch as well (since it's two channel) to let me know if something's amiss with my water levels.
wattsupdoc
Active Member
Of course if you really wanted to get involved then you could build a battery/inverter set big enough to handle youre setup and a relay to control it, but I think thats a whole 'nother thread.
P
phishface
Guest
LOL,
I like that, overboard. I currently have my tank on 2 circuits, just got lucky. Code here is one rod, plus water.
wattsupdoc
Active Member
Yes maybe even walking the plank sometimes. The generators great, but the inverter will turn you're equipment back on instantly and disconnect instantly without you being there!
pco1988
Member
Half a volt can be generated by the battery effect of salt water probe to a ground. In this case, the ground rod will "remove" the electromotive force (EMC) from the tank, but the heating effect should continue (witness a grounded battery).
Let's see if we can learn a bit from this discourse thus far:
1. Maintenance of electrical equipment in salt water tanks is very important.
2. Wearing of dry, rubber soled footwear while working on these tanks is very important.
3. Keeping the area around the tank clean and dry is very important (also, salt residue is not safe).
4. GFCI/GFI devices can be a good idea (one possible problem is that they go bad and can unexpectly shutdown important equipment when you are not there).
5. The ground rod in the tank is not a perfect solution.
I wonder about hooking up a fused ground rod wire to a Volt ohm meter (VOM) thru to a good ground and have it easy to monitor before sticking one's hand into the tank might not be a bad idea. I will have to think this idea thru some more.
Let's see if we can learn a bit from this discourse thus far:
1. Maintenance of electrical equipment in salt water tanks is very important.
2. Wearing of dry, rubber soled footwear while working on these tanks is very important.
3. Keeping the area around the tank clean and dry is very important (also, salt residue is not safe).
4. GFCI/GFI devices can be a good idea (one possible problem is that they go bad and can unexpectly shutdown important equipment when you are not there).
5. The ground rod in the tank is not a perfect solution.
I wonder about hooking up a fused ground rod wire to a Volt ohm meter (VOM) thru to a good ground and have it easy to monitor before sticking one's hand into the tank might not be a bad idea. I will have to think this idea thru some more.
jamie814
Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
I will admit that I don't trust the GFCI not to trip when I'm gone. That's why I use two circuits for my system. I realize this isn't practical for most people but if you can swing it then it's the way to go. I have two main pumps each plugged into different circuits. The rest of the equipment is also split between the circuits where practical.
Same thing I have the tank is on it's own dedicated circuit from the breaker box then split to two GFCI outlets, one power strip per GFCI. The pumps, heaters ect,, are split between the two so if one GFCI trips the other will still be powering the other half of the tank equipment. Most building codes (including around here) require that GFCI outlets are installed anywhere near water sources to protect people from electrocution.
The grounding probes are not sold to protect the aquarist working in the tank they are sold to protect the inhabitants on the tank from the potentially constant stray voltage that has been linked to head and lateral line erosion.
I will admit that I don't trust the GFCI not to trip when I'm gone. That's why I use two circuits for my system. I realize this isn't practical for most people but if you can swing it then it's the way to go. I have two main pumps each plugged into different circuits. The rest of the equipment is also split between the circuits where practical.
sleasia
Active Member
Wow...This has been a great discussion...I will definately get an electrician to come and install some gfi's and probably leave the probe in....I totally understand the concern some people have of the gfi tripping and stopping all the pumps etc. for some length of time and having a huge consequence on the tank.. Especially for reef people this would be a great catastrophe. When I go away though, I usually have people check the tank for me I guess I'm more concerned about a freak accident. The first time I was shocked was a freak accident. the pump I have is strong and blew the hose clamps off the tubing. I ended up with a 15 foot geiser in my family room. Though I saw that the surge protector was drenched, I still went for it to turn the system off, and got totally zapped. It was dumb and I knew I was going to get zapped, but I was trying to prevent 50 gallons of water from ending up in my family room. My tank is drilled with built in overflow, and I have a 50 gall sump, so when the system goes down, there is no overflow, the sump can handle it. If plug in GFI's are of good quality, then they might be the best solutions and can be removed during vacations etc. When you really don't want the pumps to fail.