Evolution vs. Intelligent Design
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darthtang aw
Active Member
Isn't there a scientific theory that thoughts have mass thus placing them in the physical? I thought I read that a long time ago.
pezenfuego
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492863
Isn't there a scientific theory that thoughts have mass thus placing them in the physical? I thought I read that a long time ago.
Thoughts are the result of propagating action potentials. I don't know what part of that process you would weigh. There's ATP, acetylcholine and other neurotransmitters, as well as calcium, sodium, and potassium. You could weight that, but it's hardly quantitative. I don't know what the point is supposed to be though. Is Flower saying that we can't explain thoughts and that they are God's work?
Long ago I read about a scientist who weighed the soul. Basically he had a man on the verge of death who he weighed before and after death. The result was some obscurely small amount of weight. I'm not presenting this as a legitimate argument, his procedure was BS. Just an interesting factoid.
Assume intelligent beings are living elsewhere in the galaxy. What are the odds that they have made some of the same scientific discoveries as us? What are the odds that they believe in evolution? What are the odds that they have the same religion as you? This is not an argument; just a question I'm throwing out there.
I don't believe in a lot of things. I believe in love. What do you think, is this an exclusively human emotion?
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492863
Isn't there a scientific theory that thoughts have mass thus placing them in the physical? I thought I read that a long time ago.
Thoughts are the result of propagating action potentials. I don't know what part of that process you would weigh. There's ATP, acetylcholine and other neurotransmitters, as well as calcium, sodium, and potassium. You could weight that, but it's hardly quantitative. I don't know what the point is supposed to be though. Is Flower saying that we can't explain thoughts and that they are God's work?
Long ago I read about a scientist who weighed the soul. Basically he had a man on the verge of death who he weighed before and after death. The result was some obscurely small amount of weight. I'm not presenting this as a legitimate argument, his procedure was BS. Just an interesting factoid.
Assume intelligent beings are living elsewhere in the galaxy. What are the odds that they have made some of the same scientific discoveries as us? What are the odds that they believe in evolution? What are the odds that they have the same religion as you? This is not an argument; just a question I'm throwing out there.
I don't believe in a lot of things. I believe in love. What do you think, is this an exclusively human emotion?
The question was how do you discover something (implying God) that has no physical presence. The response was that the human mind has no presence, yet it does exist.
Love is not exclusive to humans. I believe some animals are intelligent enough to feel love and to even grieve at the loss a loved one.
I'm pretty sure we share some common ground with intelligent beings on other planets but likely not the same experiences that we have had with God. But, who knows. That is only to wonder about.
Love is not exclusive to humans. I believe some animals are intelligent enough to feel love and to even grieve at the loss a loved one.
I'm pretty sure we share some common ground with intelligent beings on other planets but likely not the same experiences that we have had with God. But, who knows. That is only to wonder about.
kiefers
Active Member
okay, see we are making some progress. Anyone hear the phrase "I think therefore I am"? That the act of thinking guarantees the existence of the self is a fact that many philosophers take for granted. As Descartes famously put it “I think, therefore I am”, an assertion that has come to be known as the cogito. Certainly the cogito doesn’t seem like something that can be doubted, but if we are really to rely on it we should be certain that its truth can be divorced from Descartes’ philosophy. Imagine that you are bodiless, floating around like a ghost. Easy to do right? Now imagine you without a brain. I little harder to do. Because you need the brain to imagine. Hence the phrase I think therefore I am.
This is the only thing that separates humans from other species(yes, even the monkies). We are a species that asks questions, seeks for the answers, and of coarse let us not forget the "id".
I have no darn clue where I was going with this........ I'm sick today!!! Mind is cloudy. Lol
This is the only thing that separates humans from other species(yes, even the monkies). We are a species that asks questions, seeks for the answers, and of coarse let us not forget the "id".
I have no darn clue where I was going with this........ I'm sick today!!! Mind is cloudy. Lol
flower
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeriDoc http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/500#post_3492861
Actually, she could have said it much better, since she made unwarranted assumptions about me, my religious beliefs and my spirituality. Just because I have accused Flower of being one-dimensional in her relationship with science and God, she assumed that I was equally unidimensional, but of opposite sign. Many scients, most far more accomplished than a I have reached an accommodation between their spiritual and naturalistic sides.
Not to hijack this thread, but the reason I challenged you about your claims about "mind" is that there is growing evidence that the things we attribute to "mind" are normal, comprehensible neural activities. We like the concept that the human mind is superior to all others, but IMHO that is just a conceit.
LOL...I started to go there but changed my mind... because when it comes to the brains chemicals, I'm out of my comfort zone and any good debater knows to not go where you don't have the brain juice to keep up...LOL
To clarify my comments: I was going rather for the perspective of a spiritual awakening...some call it born again, but it a plain of thought that transcends the regular ability to comprehend the world around us. Once you actually "tap" into the Entity if God, the entire way you see the world around you changes. Something very deep inside is awake and sensitive, where it wasn't before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/500#post_3492862
Geri, what other mind might equal or be better than the human mind?
Do you believe in the human soul? Yes or no, I'm not sure what you mean about assumptions Flower was making about you in her comments.
I'm afraid Geri is correct...I did assume he was atheist because the things he has posted seemed to express that stand. Each of us were giving our perspective, his comments gave me that impression. However it was not meant as a slur when I said what I did. ... Simply and maybe better said: It is impossible to explain a spiritual something that has no words for expression to someone who has never experienced it and give clarity so they can understand. I had assumed that was the place I was at with Geri.
So I also ask Beth's question...Geri, do you believe in the human soul?
I had also assume Bionicarm, and Pez were also taking the atheist point of view. If I'm incorrect then please let us know. I wouldn't want to offend. If someone who does believe in God is called atheist it hurts feelings and an atheist would be offended to be called a child of God.
Originally Posted by GeriDoc http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/500#post_3492861
Actually, she could have said it much better, since she made unwarranted assumptions about me, my religious beliefs and my spirituality. Just because I have accused Flower of being one-dimensional in her relationship with science and God, she assumed that I was equally unidimensional, but of opposite sign. Many scients, most far more accomplished than a I have reached an accommodation between their spiritual and naturalistic sides.
Not to hijack this thread, but the reason I challenged you about your claims about "mind" is that there is growing evidence that the things we attribute to "mind" are normal, comprehensible neural activities. We like the concept that the human mind is superior to all others, but IMHO that is just a conceit.
LOL...I started to go there but changed my mind... because when it comes to the brains chemicals, I'm out of my comfort zone and any good debater knows to not go where you don't have the brain juice to keep up...LOL
To clarify my comments: I was going rather for the perspective of a spiritual awakening...some call it born again, but it a plain of thought that transcends the regular ability to comprehend the world around us. Once you actually "tap" into the Entity if God, the entire way you see the world around you changes. Something very deep inside is awake and sensitive, where it wasn't before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/500#post_3492862
Geri, what other mind might equal or be better than the human mind?
Do you believe in the human soul? Yes or no, I'm not sure what you mean about assumptions Flower was making about you in her comments.
I'm afraid Geri is correct...I did assume he was atheist because the things he has posted seemed to express that stand. Each of us were giving our perspective, his comments gave me that impression. However it was not meant as a slur when I said what I did. ... Simply and maybe better said: It is impossible to explain a spiritual something that has no words for expression to someone who has never experienced it and give clarity so they can understand. I had assumed that was the place I was at with Geri.
So I also ask Beth's question...Geri, do you believe in the human soul?
I had also assume Bionicarm, and Pez were also taking the atheist point of view. If I'm incorrect then please let us know. I wouldn't want to offend. If someone who does believe in God is called atheist it hurts feelings and an atheist would be offended to be called a child of God.
bionicarm
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/500#post_3492833
I like this answer...
While the stem cells are indeed the building blocks....after a death even a stem cell can't help. Because it contains an undecided function and be attached to grow into whatever a scientist probes it to do, by attaching it to the other cells.....doesn't mean it is a thing that can give life where none exists.
You may not be able to see him, but God has a very physical presence.
Discover and knocking at a door are two different things. Have you ever sat quietly in a room....speak out, just in case God is there like he said, and tell him you are having a problem believing and having that little bit of "faith" folks talk about? Ask him, if he really is there to please help you a little to understand and give you something to grasp....If you sincerely ask...not be offensive or defensive...just ask. Not ask him to blast the wall or raise the dead and prove himself...but ask him to please reveal himself to you so you can find him. I am not evangelizing...I'm telling you that God is real, and you can talk to him and get an answer. Just remember who you are talking to and show some respect.
God is not a religion, the books are accounts of what folks have seen, experienced and were told, that has been passed down, first in song and then written. You need some experience for your own self. God is not going to prove himself to anyone...That's like insisting the presedent of the United States should call you himself if he wants your vote. That doesn't mean that if you ask for a life line he will not answer you. If you ask your natural father for a piece of bread, he isn't going to hand you a stone. How much more will your heavenly Father give you a good gift if you ask him.
Is that what Michelle Bachmann did? She claimsd "God told me to run for President". Sorry, all I hear when I sit quietly in a room is the walls creaking a little bit, or the next door neighbor's dog barking. People who claim they've heard God are the same one's who actually believe there's a Heaven or Hell, yet there's no physical proof those exist either.
So why is God so selective? Some people claim that they prayed to God when their terminally-ill family member was diagnosed with an incurable disease, and that person ended up getting better, so they claim "It's a miracle!" Yet the same family has someone get run over by a drunk driver, and they claim "God did not help us. He must be not have heard our prayers" Seems to me that praying for something is just a crap shoot. Guess it depends on whether God is "listening" to you that day. Maybe because he can't listen to a couple billion "prayers" at the same time?
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/500#post_3492833
I like this answer...
While the stem cells are indeed the building blocks....after a death even a stem cell can't help. Because it contains an undecided function and be attached to grow into whatever a scientist probes it to do, by attaching it to the other cells.....doesn't mean it is a thing that can give life where none exists.
You may not be able to see him, but God has a very physical presence.
Discover and knocking at a door are two different things. Have you ever sat quietly in a room....speak out, just in case God is there like he said, and tell him you are having a problem believing and having that little bit of "faith" folks talk about? Ask him, if he really is there to please help you a little to understand and give you something to grasp....If you sincerely ask...not be offensive or defensive...just ask. Not ask him to blast the wall or raise the dead and prove himself...but ask him to please reveal himself to you so you can find him. I am not evangelizing...I'm telling you that God is real, and you can talk to him and get an answer. Just remember who you are talking to and show some respect.
God is not a religion, the books are accounts of what folks have seen, experienced and were told, that has been passed down, first in song and then written. You need some experience for your own self. God is not going to prove himself to anyone...That's like insisting the presedent of the United States should call you himself if he wants your vote. That doesn't mean that if you ask for a life line he will not answer you. If you ask your natural father for a piece of bread, he isn't going to hand you a stone. How much more will your heavenly Father give you a good gift if you ask him.
Is that what Michelle Bachmann did? She claimsd "God told me to run for President". Sorry, all I hear when I sit quietly in a room is the walls creaking a little bit, or the next door neighbor's dog barking. People who claim they've heard God are the same one's who actually believe there's a Heaven or Hell, yet there's no physical proof those exist either.
So why is God so selective? Some people claim that they prayed to God when their terminally-ill family member was diagnosed with an incurable disease, and that person ended up getting better, so they claim "It's a miracle!" Yet the same family has someone get run over by a drunk driver, and they claim "God did not help us. He must be not have heard our prayers" Seems to me that praying for something is just a crap shoot. Guess it depends on whether God is "listening" to you that day. Maybe because he can't listen to a couple billion "prayers" at the same time?
bionicarm
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492896
LOL...I started to go there but changed my mind... because when it comes to the brains chemicals, I'm out of my comfort zone and any good debater knows to not go where you don't have the brain juice to keep up...LOL
To clarify my comments: I was going rather for the perspective of a spiritual awakening...some call it born again, but it a plain of thought that transcends the regular ability to comprehend the world around us. Once you actually "tap" into the Entity if God, the entire way you see the world around you changes. Something very deep inside is awake and sensitive, where it wasn't before.
I'm afraid Geri is correct...I did assume he was atheist because the things he has posted seemed to express that stand. Each of us were giving our perspective, his comments gave me that impression. However it was not meant as a slur when I said what I did. ... Simply and maybe better said: It is impossible to explain a spiritual something that has no words for expression to someone who has never experienced it and give clarity so they can understand. I had assumed that was the place I was at with Geri.
So I also ask Beth's question...Geri, do you believe in the human soul?
I had also assume Bionicarm, and Pez were also taking the atheist point of view. If I'm incorrect then please let us know. I wouldn't want to offend. If someone who does believe in God is called atheist it hurts feelings and an atheist would be offended to be called a child of God.
I'm agnostic, not atheist. There's a difference between the two. Ironically, I grew up Catholic, and my mother's family have been devout Catholic's all their lives. Before my mother's dementia got too bad, when I went to visit her I would take her to Sunday service at the same church she went to for almost 60 years. I sitll knew the "motions" you go through during a Mass and service (sit, stand, knee, stand, knee, sit, etc.), and surprisingly still know some of the responses without looking at the book. Don't know if you consider it hypocritical, but I honestly get nothing out of the entire experience.
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492896
LOL...I started to go there but changed my mind... because when it comes to the brains chemicals, I'm out of my comfort zone and any good debater knows to not go where you don't have the brain juice to keep up...LOL
To clarify my comments: I was going rather for the perspective of a spiritual awakening...some call it born again, but it a plain of thought that transcends the regular ability to comprehend the world around us. Once you actually "tap" into the Entity if God, the entire way you see the world around you changes. Something very deep inside is awake and sensitive, where it wasn't before.
I'm afraid Geri is correct...I did assume he was atheist because the things he has posted seemed to express that stand. Each of us were giving our perspective, his comments gave me that impression. However it was not meant as a slur when I said what I did. ... Simply and maybe better said: It is impossible to explain a spiritual something that has no words for expression to someone who has never experienced it and give clarity so they can understand. I had assumed that was the place I was at with Geri.
So I also ask Beth's question...Geri, do you believe in the human soul?
I had also assume Bionicarm, and Pez were also taking the atheist point of view. If I'm incorrect then please let us know. I wouldn't want to offend. If someone who does believe in God is called atheist it hurts feelings and an atheist would be offended to be called a child of God.
I'm agnostic, not atheist. There's a difference between the two. Ironically, I grew up Catholic, and my mother's family have been devout Catholic's all their lives. Before my mother's dementia got too bad, when I went to visit her I would take her to Sunday service at the same church she went to for almost 60 years. I sitll knew the "motions" you go through during a Mass and service (sit, stand, knee, stand, knee, sit, etc.), and surprisingly still know some of the responses without looking at the book. Don't know if you consider it hypocritical, but I honestly get nothing out of the entire experience.
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492905
I'm agnostic, not atheist. There's a difference between the two. Ironically, I grew up Catholic, and my mother's family have been devout Catholic's all their lives. Before my mother's dementia got too bad, when I went to visit her I would take her to Sunday service at the same church she went to for almost 60 years. I sitll knew the "motions" you go through during a Mass and service (sit, stand, knee, stand, knee, sit, etc.), and surprisingly still know some of the responses without looking at the book. Don't know if you consider it hypocritical, but I honestly get nothing out of the entire experience.
I grew up Catholic and quit going years ago. Then I met my wife and we started going to her Baptist church. I have never felt the "Spirit of God" move through me in one of these sessions. The only times I feel close to someone who isn't there is by looking at the beauty of nature in all it's wonder and awe. My God does not live in a church - My God is living in me - in everyone - in everything - but does not have a consciousness the way we know it and doesn't care who you are and what you did or did not get or want. My creator takes the hands off approach - and I like it this way.
Besides, isn't the Americanized version of God so dang greedy? I mean c'mmon - you have to dedicate your time to him. You have to dedicate your entire mind saying nothing but prayers to him. You can't enjoy any of life's small pleasures such as watching a funny TV show or even pleasure yourself. You have to give him your money that you worked hard for so that his message can be spread elsewhere where they will also give their money to the cause... To me, religion itself is a business - and a complete waste of my time. I don't belong to any religion. I just have a good idea.
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492905
I'm agnostic, not atheist. There's a difference between the two. Ironically, I grew up Catholic, and my mother's family have been devout Catholic's all their lives. Before my mother's dementia got too bad, when I went to visit her I would take her to Sunday service at the same church she went to for almost 60 years. I sitll knew the "motions" you go through during a Mass and service (sit, stand, knee, stand, knee, sit, etc.), and surprisingly still know some of the responses without looking at the book. Don't know if you consider it hypocritical, but I honestly get nothing out of the entire experience.
I grew up Catholic and quit going years ago. Then I met my wife and we started going to her Baptist church. I have never felt the "Spirit of God" move through me in one of these sessions. The only times I feel close to someone who isn't there is by looking at the beauty of nature in all it's wonder and awe. My God does not live in a church - My God is living in me - in everyone - in everything - but does not have a consciousness the way we know it and doesn't care who you are and what you did or did not get or want. My creator takes the hands off approach - and I like it this way.
Besides, isn't the Americanized version of God so dang greedy? I mean c'mmon - you have to dedicate your time to him. You have to dedicate your entire mind saying nothing but prayers to him. You can't enjoy any of life's small pleasures such as watching a funny TV show or even pleasure yourself. You have to give him your money that you worked hard for so that his message can be spread elsewhere where they will also give their money to the cause... To me, religion itself is a business - and a complete waste of my time. I don't belong to any religion. I just have a good idea.
I'm agnostic, not atheist. There's a difference between the two. Ironically, I grew up Catholic, and my mother's family have been devout Catholic's all their lives. Before my mother's dementia got too bad, when I went to visit her I would take her to Sunday service at the same church she went to for almost 60 years. I sitll knew the "motions" you go through during a Mass and service (sit, stand, knee, stand, knee, sit, etc.), and surprisingly still know some of the responses without looking at the book. Don't know if you consider it hypocritical, but I honestly get nothing out of the entire experience.
I'm in the same boat as you. Brought up Jewish in a mildly religious family, had my bar mitzvah and everything that goes along with it because I was forced to. Pretty much decided in my early teens that I didn't believe a bit of it since there was zero proof that any of what we were being fed as fact actually happened. I don't think that any place built by man can be considered to be a house of god( and I've even been to the Vatican) and have seen many natural places that convey a greater sense of spirituality than any building. I definitely need to see some proof before I'll put my faith in the judeo/christian notion of a god. Give me a burning bush, a voice from above or a talking dog for that matter and maybe I'll change my mind. There is absolutely nothing that anyone else can tell me that would make me believe any different, I need to see proof for myself.
I'm in the same boat as you. Brought up Jewish in a mildly religious family, had my bar mitzvah and everything that goes along with it because I was forced to. Pretty much decided in my early teens that I didn't believe a bit of it since there was zero proof that any of what we were being fed as fact actually happened. I don't think that any place built by man can be considered to be a house of god( and I've even been to the Vatican) and have seen many natural places that convey a greater sense of spirituality than any building. I definitely need to see some proof before I'll put my faith in the judeo/christian notion of a god. Give me a burning bush, a voice from above or a talking dog for that matter and maybe I'll change my mind. There is absolutely nothing that anyone else can tell me that would make me believe any different, I need to see proof for myself.
pezenfuego
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492896
LOL...I started to go there but changed my mind... because when it comes to the brains chemicals, I'm out of my comfort zone and any good debater knows to not go where you don't have the brain juice to keep up...LOL
To clarify my comments: I was going rather for the perspective of a spiritual awakening...some call it born again, but it a plain of thought that transcends the regular ability to comprehend the world around us. Once you actually "tap" into the Entity if God, the entire way you see the world around you changes. Something very deep inside is awake and sensitive, where it wasn't before.
I'm afraid Geri is correct...I did assume he was atheist because the things he has posted seemed to express that stand. Each of us were giving our perspective, his comments gave me that impression. However it was not meant as a slur when I said what I did. ... Simply and maybe better said: It is impossible to explain a spiritual something that has no words for expression to someone who has never experienced it and give clarity so they can understand. I had assumed that was the place I was at with Geri.
So I also ask Beth's question...Geri, do you believe in the human soul?
I had also assume Bionicarm, and Pez were also taking the atheist point of view. If I'm incorrect then please let us know. I wouldn't want to offend. If someone who does believe in God is called atheist it hurts feelings and an atheist would be offended to be called a child of God.
There is nothing offensive about it unless assumptions go along with it. Go ahead and call me white, just don't imply that I like Seinfeld (I do love Seinfeld though)...
Most people have a built in sense of altruism and empathy. If they don't or if they ignore theirs, then they are bad people. Simply believing or disbelieving something does not make someone a bad person (unless said belief is directly related to harming others). I have morals and I truly haven't done anything that bad in my life. I've broken a few things (hearts mostly), pissed some people off (Flower mostly), and stolen a few things (girlfriends mostly). But I work hard not to hurt other people and make sure that I have a net positive impact on the world.
Again, you are using an 'argument from personal incredulity' logical fallacy. You can't believe that your feelings caused by spirituality can be explained scientifically.
The problem is that you can't tell someone that they haven't experienced something or that you have experienced something that they haven't.
The point is that the only way we can tackle that argument is to drop down to the same plain and play he said/she said.
Example: I used to believe in God. I even had what I thought was a spiritual awakening. But as I grew older and learned more about my religion, I decided to abandon my faith. What I thought was a spiritual awakening was actually a large release of dopamine. Also your spiritual awakening was illegitimate.
It doesn't really work.
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492896
LOL...I started to go there but changed my mind... because when it comes to the brains chemicals, I'm out of my comfort zone and any good debater knows to not go where you don't have the brain juice to keep up...LOL
To clarify my comments: I was going rather for the perspective of a spiritual awakening...some call it born again, but it a plain of thought that transcends the regular ability to comprehend the world around us. Once you actually "tap" into the Entity if God, the entire way you see the world around you changes. Something very deep inside is awake and sensitive, where it wasn't before.
I'm afraid Geri is correct...I did assume he was atheist because the things he has posted seemed to express that stand. Each of us were giving our perspective, his comments gave me that impression. However it was not meant as a slur when I said what I did. ... Simply and maybe better said: It is impossible to explain a spiritual something that has no words for expression to someone who has never experienced it and give clarity so they can understand. I had assumed that was the place I was at with Geri.
So I also ask Beth's question...Geri, do you believe in the human soul?
I had also assume Bionicarm, and Pez were also taking the atheist point of view. If I'm incorrect then please let us know. I wouldn't want to offend. If someone who does believe in God is called atheist it hurts feelings and an atheist would be offended to be called a child of God.
There is nothing offensive about it unless assumptions go along with it. Go ahead and call me white, just don't imply that I like Seinfeld (I do love Seinfeld though)...
Most people have a built in sense of altruism and empathy. If they don't or if they ignore theirs, then they are bad people. Simply believing or disbelieving something does not make someone a bad person (unless said belief is directly related to harming others). I have morals and I truly haven't done anything that bad in my life. I've broken a few things (hearts mostly), pissed some people off (Flower mostly), and stolen a few things (girlfriends mostly). But I work hard not to hurt other people and make sure that I have a net positive impact on the world.
Again, you are using an 'argument from personal incredulity' logical fallacy. You can't believe that your feelings caused by spirituality can be explained scientifically.
The problem is that you can't tell someone that they haven't experienced something or that you have experienced something that they haven't.
The point is that the only way we can tackle that argument is to drop down to the same plain and play he said/she said.
Example: I used to believe in God. I even had what I thought was a spiritual awakening. But as I grew older and learned more about my religion, I decided to abandon my faith. What I thought was a spiritual awakening was actually a large release of dopamine. Also your spiritual awakening was illegitimate.
It doesn't really work.
Besides, isn't the Americanized version of God so dang greedy? I mean c'mmon - you have to dedicate your time to him. You have to dedicate your entire mind saying nothing but prayers to him. You can't enjoy any of life's small pleasures such as watching a funny TV show or even pleasure yourself. You have to give him your money that you worked hard for so that his message can be spread elsewhere where they will also give their money to the cause... To me, religion itself is a business - and a complete waste of my time. I don't belong to any religion. I just have a good idea.
Trust me. After seeing the Vatican you efinitely get a sense of how much money the church has and it's kind of sickening
pezenfuego
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492902
Is that what Michelle Bachmann did? She claimsd "God told me to run for President". Sorry, all I hear when I sit quietly in a room is the walls creaking a little bit, or the next door neighbor's dog barking. People who claim they've heard God are the same one's who actually believe there's a Heaven or Hell, yet there's no physical proof those exist either.
So why is God so selective? Some people claim that they prayed to God when their terminally-ill family member was diagnosed with an incurable disease, and that person ended up getting better, so they claim "It's a miracle!" Yet the same family has someone get run over by a drunk driver, and they claim "God did not help us. He must be not have heard our prayers" Seems to me that praying for something is just a crap shoot. Guess it depends on whether God is "listening" to you that day. Maybe because he can't listen to a couple billion "prayers" at the same time?
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492902
Is that what Michelle Bachmann did? She claimsd "God told me to run for President". Sorry, all I hear when I sit quietly in a room is the walls creaking a little bit, or the next door neighbor's dog barking. People who claim they've heard God are the same one's who actually believe there's a Heaven or Hell, yet there's no physical proof those exist either.
So why is God so selective? Some people claim that they prayed to God when their terminally-ill family member was diagnosed with an incurable disease, and that person ended up getting better, so they claim "It's a miracle!" Yet the same family has someone get run over by a drunk driver, and they claim "God did not help us. He must be not have heard our prayers" Seems to me that praying for something is just a crap shoot. Guess it depends on whether God is "listening" to you that day. Maybe because he can't listen to a couple billion "prayers" at the same time?
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
mantisman51
Active Member
In the realm of Creation-v-evolution I look at it like this and I think this thread has brought it out beautifully: The person who believes in God believes He created all there is and looks for reasons to justify that faith-but is willing to admit it. The person who doesn't believe in God looks for reasons to prove there is no God, no matter how scientifically shaky the "evidence" is and won't admit it because they have wrapped themselves in a faith of "science" and can't admit that they are doing the same thing Creationists are-they are superior thinkers after all. And that is the divide that will never be crossed since we as a species are "ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth". Because if we all admit that there is a God, then we have to admit He has rules and we ain't willing to live by them, so we chose to cling to a theory that some clever scientists have used to try to explain away God. But it doesn't work for ostriches and it won't work for people either. Moses was right.
bionicarm
Active Member
Looks like the military believes in zombies...
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/16/13899038-zombies-under-attack-in-counterterrorism-training-program?lite
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/16/13899038-zombies-under-attack-in-counterterrorism-training-program?lite
geridoc
Well-Known Member
"In the realm of Creation-v-evolution I look at it like this and I think this thread has brought it out beautifully: The person who believes in God believes He created all there is and looks for reasons to justify that faith-but is willing to admit it. The person who doesn't believe in God looks for reasons to prove there is no God, no matter how scientifically shaky the "evidence" is and won't admit it because they have wrapped themselves in a faith of "science" and can't admit that they are doing the same thing Creationists are-they are superior thinkers after all. "
mantisman: You are falling into the same trap that many sincerely religious people seem prone to find: it is a false dichotomy to say that your either believe in God, the creator of all, or you are an atheist who believes in Godless science. That's like saying that if you have a banana there must be no oranges in the world. There are many deeply religious scientists in the world, most of whom accept the concept of evolution as well.
Flower: I was raised in a Jewish family, but I began to have my problems with a benificent and responsive God when I was 8 and a prayed to God as hard as I could that my father had not died that afternoon. God either wasn't listening, didn't care, or wasn't there at all. Now, after 60 more years of maturation, I suppose that the Three Dog Night line sums up my attitude best: "I swear there ain't no heaven, and I pray there ain't no hell". I have indeed felt (or needed to feel) a higher power on rare occasion in my life, but I see no objective evidence that the Judeo-Christian God exists, or if He/She does, He/She doesn't really care about us. That does not rule out a higher power, just the higher power envisioned by one particular sect of human beings seems unlikely to me.
Beth: You asked about higher minds. The mind of a bumble bee is a much higher mind than ours, if you are a bumble bee, just as the mind of a squid is better than the human mind for a squid. Our mind is just the best mind for a human being, that's all. We aren't even the best species on the planet - we can't stay underwater or fly without assistance, and we are lousy hunters without weapons. So we evolved the kind of mind that can create those helping devices, but other animals do it too, to an extent they need to. Come back in 100 million years and see who is the dominant species on the planet. Homo sapiens will likely be gone.
mantisman: You are falling into the same trap that many sincerely religious people seem prone to find: it is a false dichotomy to say that your either believe in God, the creator of all, or you are an atheist who believes in Godless science. That's like saying that if you have a banana there must be no oranges in the world. There are many deeply religious scientists in the world, most of whom accept the concept of evolution as well.
Flower: I was raised in a Jewish family, but I began to have my problems with a benificent and responsive God when I was 8 and a prayed to God as hard as I could that my father had not died that afternoon. God either wasn't listening, didn't care, or wasn't there at all. Now, after 60 more years of maturation, I suppose that the Three Dog Night line sums up my attitude best: "I swear there ain't no heaven, and I pray there ain't no hell". I have indeed felt (or needed to feel) a higher power on rare occasion in my life, but I see no objective evidence that the Judeo-Christian God exists, or if He/She does, He/She doesn't really care about us. That does not rule out a higher power, just the higher power envisioned by one particular sect of human beings seems unlikely to me.
Beth: You asked about higher minds. The mind of a bumble bee is a much higher mind than ours, if you are a bumble bee, just as the mind of a squid is better than the human mind for a squid. Our mind is just the best mind for a human being, that's all. We aren't even the best species on the planet - we can't stay underwater or fly without assistance, and we are lousy hunters without weapons. So we evolved the kind of mind that can create those helping devices, but other animals do it too, to an extent they need to. Come back in 100 million years and see who is the dominant species on the planet. Homo sapiens will likely be gone.
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492863
Isn't there a scientific theory that thoughts have mass thus placing them in the physical? I thought I read that a long time ago.
Does it count if my thoughts make a mass of me?
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492863
Isn't there a scientific theory that thoughts have mass thus placing them in the physical? I thought I read that a long time ago.
Does it count if my thoughts make a mass of me?
pezenfuego
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492921
In the realm of Creation-v-evolution I look at it like this and I think this thread has brought it out beautifully: The person who believes in God believes He created all there is and looks for reasons to justify that faith-but is willing to admit it. The person who doesn't believe in God looks for reasons to prove there is no God, no matter how scientifically shaky the "evidence" is and won't admit it because they have wrapped themselves in a faith of "science" and can't admit that they are doing the same thing Creationists are-they are superior thinkers after all. And that is the divide that will never be crossed since we as a species are "ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth". Because if we all admit that there is a God, then we have to admit He has rules and we ain't willing to live by them, so we chose to cling to a theory that some clever scientists have used to try to explain away God. But it doesn't work for ostriches and it won't work for people either. Moses was right.
You shouldn't generalize. I would love to be a Christian. For the majority of my life I lied to myself and told myself that I was a Christian and that I did believe in God. The will to want to believe was not enough and I searched, not for proof against God, but for proof that God existed. I wanted to be like everyone else and have this belief. I went to church every Sunday, attended youth groups, read the bible, read two of those "I died and went to heaven-then came back" books, and I even prayed every night. One day I decided that it was more important to stop lying to myself and face the truth. I don't go around announcing my lack of faith or trying to convert people. I don't necessarily hide it either, but I do avoid the conversation.
People think that scientists are evil when all they are trying to do is gain knowledge about our world and help other people.
The same thing goes for doctors.
I remember when I finished moving a playground. This was close to a church and someone from the community invited me to attend church the following week. I accepted. I wasn't expecting the pastor to talk about the project, but he mentioned it. He said that we should all thank God that the children of the community can use this playground. There was no mention of my hard work or the work of the community volunteers. If God did anything, he made me run into every problem possible during the process. The pastors little speech didn't sit well with me.
Sorry, my train of thought derailed one again.
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492921
In the realm of Creation-v-evolution I look at it like this and I think this thread has brought it out beautifully: The person who believes in God believes He created all there is and looks for reasons to justify that faith-but is willing to admit it. The person who doesn't believe in God looks for reasons to prove there is no God, no matter how scientifically shaky the "evidence" is and won't admit it because they have wrapped themselves in a faith of "science" and can't admit that they are doing the same thing Creationists are-they are superior thinkers after all. And that is the divide that will never be crossed since we as a species are "ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth". Because if we all admit that there is a God, then we have to admit He has rules and we ain't willing to live by them, so we chose to cling to a theory that some clever scientists have used to try to explain away God. But it doesn't work for ostriches and it won't work for people either. Moses was right.
You shouldn't generalize. I would love to be a Christian. For the majority of my life I lied to myself and told myself that I was a Christian and that I did believe in God. The will to want to believe was not enough and I searched, not for proof against God, but for proof that God existed. I wanted to be like everyone else and have this belief. I went to church every Sunday, attended youth groups, read the bible, read two of those "I died and went to heaven-then came back" books, and I even prayed every night. One day I decided that it was more important to stop lying to myself and face the truth. I don't go around announcing my lack of faith or trying to convert people. I don't necessarily hide it either, but I do avoid the conversation.
People think that scientists are evil when all they are trying to do is gain knowledge about our world and help other people.
The same thing goes for doctors.
I remember when I finished moving a playground. This was close to a church and someone from the community invited me to attend church the following week. I accepted. I wasn't expecting the pastor to talk about the project, but he mentioned it. He said that we should all thank God that the children of the community can use this playground. There was no mention of my hard work or the work of the community volunteers. If God did anything, he made me run into every problem possible during the process. The pastors little speech didn't sit well with me.
Sorry, my train of thought derailed one again.
bionicarm
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by PEZenfuego http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492934
You shouldn't generalize. I would love to be a Christian. For the majority of my life I lied to myself and told myself that I was a Christian and that I did believe in God. The will to want to believe was not enough and I searched, not for proof against God, but for proof that God existed. I wanted to be like everyone else and have this belief. I went to church every Sunday, attended youth groups, read the bible, read two of those "I died and went to heaven-then came back" books, and I even prayed every night. One day I decided that it was more important to stop lying to myself and face the truth. I don't go around announcing my lack of faith or trying to convert people. I don't necessarily hide it either, but I do avoid the conversation.
People think that scientists are evil when all they are trying to do is gain knowledge about our world and help other people.
The same thing goes for doctors.
I remember when I finished moving a playground. This was close to a church and someone from the community invited me to attend church the following week. I accepted. I wasn't expecting the pastor to talk about the project, but he mentioned it. He said that we should all thank God that the children of the community can use this playground. There was no mention of my hard work or the work of the community volunteers. If God did anything, he made me run into every problem possible during the process. The pastors little speech didn't sit well with me.
Sorry, my train of thought derailed one again.
I completely relate to your experience. What I find somewhat hypocritical is the people that use attending Sunday church as a sort of fascade. They may or may not actually believe in God, or the teachings that are being given by whatever religious group they are in (Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, etc.), but they attend church simply for the "appearance", as some kind of acknowledgement to the community that they believe in religion, or are a religious person. How many politicians do you know that are agnostic or atheists? You'd never see someone in that group run for a higher office, especially POTUS. It's almost become a requirement to serve. Look how the Democrats were admonished for debating whether to include God and Israel into their Proclamation (or whatever it was they voted on, and you couldn't tell the difference between the 'aye's' and 'nay's', yet the speaker voted for the "aye's" regardless).
Neither of my daughters have ever been associated with a religion. I've never told them that they couldn't attend a church, but I had no interest in going, and if they wanted to go, I'd be more than happy to take them anywhere they prefer. They never pushed it, but have gone with some of their friends to whatever church they attend. I actually had an issue with one parent of one of their friends, because the parent asked my daughter what church her family attended. When my daughter replied that our familiy doens't go to church, the woman acted like we were some sort of child abusers because we didn't take our kids to church when they were young. Needlless to say, my daughter never associated with this friend again.
Originally Posted by PEZenfuego http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/520#post_3492934
You shouldn't generalize. I would love to be a Christian. For the majority of my life I lied to myself and told myself that I was a Christian and that I did believe in God. The will to want to believe was not enough and I searched, not for proof against God, but for proof that God existed. I wanted to be like everyone else and have this belief. I went to church every Sunday, attended youth groups, read the bible, read two of those "I died and went to heaven-then came back" books, and I even prayed every night. One day I decided that it was more important to stop lying to myself and face the truth. I don't go around announcing my lack of faith or trying to convert people. I don't necessarily hide it either, but I do avoid the conversation.
People think that scientists are evil when all they are trying to do is gain knowledge about our world and help other people.
The same thing goes for doctors.
I remember when I finished moving a playground. This was close to a church and someone from the community invited me to attend church the following week. I accepted. I wasn't expecting the pastor to talk about the project, but he mentioned it. He said that we should all thank God that the children of the community can use this playground. There was no mention of my hard work or the work of the community volunteers. If God did anything, he made me run into every problem possible during the process. The pastors little speech didn't sit well with me.
Sorry, my train of thought derailed one again.
I completely relate to your experience. What I find somewhat hypocritical is the people that use attending Sunday church as a sort of fascade. They may or may not actually believe in God, or the teachings that are being given by whatever religious group they are in (Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, etc.), but they attend church simply for the "appearance", as some kind of acknowledgement to the community that they believe in religion, or are a religious person. How many politicians do you know that are agnostic or atheists? You'd never see someone in that group run for a higher office, especially POTUS. It's almost become a requirement to serve. Look how the Democrats were admonished for debating whether to include God and Israel into their Proclamation (or whatever it was they voted on, and you couldn't tell the difference between the 'aye's' and 'nay's', yet the speaker voted for the "aye's" regardless).
Neither of my daughters have ever been associated with a religion. I've never told them that they couldn't attend a church, but I had no interest in going, and if they wanted to go, I'd be more than happy to take them anywhere they prefer. They never pushed it, but have gone with some of their friends to whatever church they attend. I actually had an issue with one parent of one of their friends, because the parent asked my daughter what church her family attended. When my daughter replied that our familiy doens't go to church, the woman acted like we were some sort of child abusers because we didn't take our kids to church when they were young. Needlless to say, my daughter never associated with this friend again.
flower
Well-Known Member
When I was 16, I woke from a dream, I won't go into the dream...it's a long story. The dream had frightened me...what will I do when I die? I sought out God with evey fiber of my being, I knew he was there, not paying attention to me....ignoring me. I cried, I begged and I prayed. ..7 days.... That doesn't look like a long time, but they were hard days and I cried and felt rejected and I wanted God to pay attention, so I prayed somemore.
On the 7th day I was praying, begging and crying and something very warm began in my belly and climbed up and washed over me, and this knowing came all over me and I knew God, and I still choke up remembering that moment.... I opened my eyes and I saw a Bible real as life, but I could see thru the book, it was like a translucent thing. It came to me floating from across the room and stopped in front of my face, it opened up and entered into me. I knew every scripture, I could quote it perfectly. I knew passages I have never read. Not just the scriptures but the letters too..what folks call old and new testaments.
If that were the only thing I ever experienced, it would have been enough. If I ask he stops the rain, if I'm stranded with no phone he sends help anyway. I have gotten into a car wreck...the car was crushed like an accordian, I didn't have a scratch, my sister used the vacuum cleaner and sucked the glass from my hair. That's just a few off the top of my head kind of life I have lived in his care.
I know one thing...HaShem is solid real. I can't prove it, and I am not going to worry about what you folks are going to think of me after this post. I am not crazy. Oh and by the way, before that moment, I couldn't read. I was in special classes (basic math for example) and considered boarderline retarded, the teachers argued with my mother that I should not be in main stream school...I earned straight Fs in everything but art class. I can add and subtact, but I don't know the times tables to this day. I begged God to let me know him, he gave me a book and he taught me how to read it in an instant. I had to read the Bible just to see if what I knew was in there. I can read anything I want now, a novel in a single day and I understand what I read.
When my father was dying, it never even occured to me to ask him not to take him....I never thought of it until this moment, I knew he was supposed to die, I loved him and I cried... and I miss him. I don't blame God for my troubles. Doctors told me I would die before my son Nick was born, the doctors wanted me to abort the pregnancy...they had already taken one baby and I was too sick for the pill (another long story). I asked God to let me bring him to term and let me see him be born, then I could die in peace....he turns 32 on the 29th of September.
Knowing God does not mean that we will have no sorrows, it doesn't mean that he is the Genie of the book to grant our wishes. He isn't a crutch so we don't have to be responsible for our mistakes. I have faced death a few times...He doesn't exist so we won't be afraid to die, LOL...but knowing him helps to take the sting out a bit let me tell you. All of my joy has been to just know him, that's all I ever wanted....I'm quite sure that's all I will ever need. He has never disappointed me.
Shanah Tovah...It's Rosh Hashanah. I love the sound of the shofar!
On the 7th day I was praying, begging and crying and something very warm began in my belly and climbed up and washed over me, and this knowing came all over me and I knew God, and I still choke up remembering that moment.... I opened my eyes and I saw a Bible real as life, but I could see thru the book, it was like a translucent thing. It came to me floating from across the room and stopped in front of my face, it opened up and entered into me. I knew every scripture, I could quote it perfectly. I knew passages I have never read. Not just the scriptures but the letters too..what folks call old and new testaments.
If that were the only thing I ever experienced, it would have been enough. If I ask he stops the rain, if I'm stranded with no phone he sends help anyway. I have gotten into a car wreck...the car was crushed like an accordian, I didn't have a scratch, my sister used the vacuum cleaner and sucked the glass from my hair. That's just a few off the top of my head kind of life I have lived in his care.
I know one thing...HaShem is solid real. I can't prove it, and I am not going to worry about what you folks are going to think of me after this post. I am not crazy. Oh and by the way, before that moment, I couldn't read. I was in special classes (basic math for example) and considered boarderline retarded, the teachers argued with my mother that I should not be in main stream school...I earned straight Fs in everything but art class. I can add and subtact, but I don't know the times tables to this day. I begged God to let me know him, he gave me a book and he taught me how to read it in an instant. I had to read the Bible just to see if what I knew was in there. I can read anything I want now, a novel in a single day and I understand what I read.
When my father was dying, it never even occured to me to ask him not to take him....I never thought of it until this moment, I knew he was supposed to die, I loved him and I cried... and I miss him. I don't blame God for my troubles. Doctors told me I would die before my son Nick was born, the doctors wanted me to abort the pregnancy...they had already taken one baby and I was too sick for the pill (another long story). I asked God to let me bring him to term and let me see him be born, then I could die in peace....he turns 32 on the 29th of September.
Knowing God does not mean that we will have no sorrows, it doesn't mean that he is the Genie of the book to grant our wishes. He isn't a crutch so we don't have to be responsible for our mistakes. I have faced death a few times...He doesn't exist so we won't be afraid to die, LOL...but knowing him helps to take the sting out a bit let me tell you. All of my joy has been to just know him, that's all I ever wanted....I'm quite sure that's all I will ever need. He has never disappointed me.
Shanah Tovah...It's Rosh Hashanah. I love the sound of the shofar!