Evolution vs. Intelligent Design

darthtang aw

Active Member
It is the religion that people turn away from because it is not believable.
actually It is the contradiction within the interpretations of religions that people are turned off by...but now we are just mincing words.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/540#post_3493250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower
http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/540#post_3493248
What is wrong with Jesus being married? How would that affect anyones religion?
I would like to also point out that Jesus was a Jew, commanded by God to be fruitful and multiply. So to have a wife would give honor to the Mitzvot (commanded good deed), than the silly teaching that holy men don't have sex, a Cathoilic teaching that makes no sense at all to me.....The reason none of these make sense to me is because I can't find any, scripture, letter or gospel account that teaches this, even a little hint of it.
I am not trying to slur the religion, I hope to not be taken wrong on what I posted. I just don't understand why Christians would be upset or even care if Jesus had a wife.
It is the whole virgin aspect. If he was married the odds of his verginity being intact at the time of the crucifiction would come into question.
There is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus was a virgin. His mother is another story. That is where the virgin stuff comes in.
Also, there is nothing in the Bible that indicates at all that Jesus was married or anything about his sex life.
Christians care about it because he is viewed as the Son of God, not the son of man, so he is above earthly pleasures or needs. If not for this basic belief, then there would be no Christianity.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
There is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus was a virgin.  His mother is another story.  That is where the virgin stuff comes in.
Also, there is nothing in the Bible that indicates at all that Jesus was married or anything about his sex life.
Christians care about it because he is viewed as the Son of God, not the son of man, so he is above earthly pleasures or needs.  If not for this basic belief, then there would be no Christianity.
Exactly, so by lack of historical reference, the stance has been taken by many christian sects.
I am not agree with the view, just stating how it would "affect".
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/540#post_3493250
It is the whole virgin aspect. If he was married the odds of his verginity being intact at the time of the crucifiction would come into question.
UMMM...Why would Jesus need to be a virgin? Do you know that Mary the mother of Jesus was only a virgin when she concieved him, she was married to Joseph and he didn't have relations with her until AFTER he was born, and Jesus had brothers...she was not a virgin until her death, according to the gospels.
Quote from Beth
Christians care about it because he is viewed as the Son of God, not the son of man, so he is above earthly pleasures or needs. If not for this basic belief, then there would be no Christianity.
My answer:
Jesus always called himself the son of man...do you want me to tell you how many times? I guess that means Christianity does not exist...and we know it does.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member

UMMM...Why would Jesus need to be a virgin? Do you know that Mary the mother of Jesus was only a virgin when she concieved him, she was married to Joseph and he didn't have relations with her until AFTER he was born, and Jesus had brothers...she was not a virgin until her death, according to the gospels.
Quote from Beth
Christians care about it because he is viewed as the Son of God, not the son of man, so he is above earthly pleasures or needs. If not for this basic belief, then there would be no Christianity.
My answer:
Jesus always called himself the son of man...do you want me to tell you how many times? I guess that means Christianity does not exist...and we know it does.
Pure sacrifice. it enhances the everything. I know the story concerning the immaculate conception and that it was only applicable to Jesus. This is not exactly hard to believe...as it is physically possible concerning Mary.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/560#post_3493259
I didn't think Mary and Joseph were married until after Jesus was conceived.
True enough....but they were married before he was born. Joesph after being raised from sleep by an angel did as he was bidden and took Mary as his wife and knew her not until after she had given birth to her firstborn son. {Matt 1:24-25) Also in the account of the gospel of Luke 2:4-5} .... Joesph who was of the linage of David had to go to Bethlehem to be taxed, he came with his espoused wife Mary who was great with child.

Espouse | Easy to understand definition
of espouse by Your ...

transitive verb espoused
, espousing
. to take as a spouse, esp. as a wife
; marry; to give in marriage; to take up, support, or advocate (some cause, idea, etc.)
www.yourdictionary.com
/espouse
I take the above verses to mean that Joseph married Mary, but did not consummate the marriage until after Jesus birth.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/560#post_3493260
Pure sacrifice. it enhances the everything. I know the story concerning the immaculate conception and that it was only applicable to Jesus. This is not exactly hard to believe...as it is physically possible concerning Mary.
I'm not sure why you posted this with my quote...unless you misunderstood me
I didn't say that Mary was not a virgin when she concieved Jesus. I was saying she was married to Joseph and had some more kids after Jesus, the good old fashioned way.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/560#post_3493263
True enough....but they were married before he was born. Joesph after being raised from sleep by an angel did as he was bidden and took Mary as his wife and knew her not until after she had given birth to her firstborn son. {Matt 1:24-25) Also in the account of the gospel of Luke 2:4-5} .... Joesph who was of the linage of David had to go to Bethlehem to be taxed, he came with his espoused wife Mary who was great with child.
OK. I had trouble following the wording of an earlier sentence. No worries
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, I also heard the theory that Cleopatra was black too. Both theories are not fact-based, and highly improbable.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/560#post_3493321
Anyone ever heard about the theory that Jesus was black?
He was very darked skinned from being in the sun, like you see in the Arab and Jewish nation, not African. There is a writting in the books, Don't look upon me for I have been blackened by the sun....it goes on to discribe the individual more, he has no form (build of the body) or comliness (the face) that when we look upon him that we should desire him. So if the passage refers to Jesus as it has been acscribed by Chriatianity and assumed to mean the Messiah as the subject...then not only was Jesus very dark skinned but skinny and ugly as well. After looking at the shroud of Turan...I am inclined to agree on the not so good looking part for sure. We all know that it is soul of the man that was beautiful, not so much the face, when it comes to the Rabbi.
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/560#post_3493329
He was very darked skinned from being in the sun, like you see in the Arab and Jewish nation, not African. There is a writting in the books, Don't look upon me for I have been blackened by the sun....it goes on to discribe the individual more, he has no form (build of the body) or comliness (the face) that when we look upon him that we should desire him. So if the passage refers to Jesus as it has been acscribed by Chriatianity and assumed to mean the Messiah as the subject...then not only was Jesus very dark skinned but skinny and ugly as well. After looking at the shroud of Turan...I am inclined to agree on the not so good looking part for sure. We all know that it is soul of the man that was beautiful, not so much the face, when it comes to the Rabbi.
So,... Jesus had blackened skin, skinny and ugly as all get out. Yup, that's the savior I know that is portrayed in all of the art that I have seen. XD
Religion is so controversial. The Bible - and many books like it are filled with hypocrisy and bitter contempt for those that do not share their views. I can't belong to a faith that excludes everyone else's beliefs and tells them they are the ones that are going to Hell - even though they are the ones that created the concept to begin with.
I like the concept of having a higher power than myself - but I can not force myself to believe in concepts that I do not agree with.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/560#post_3493331
So,... Jesus had blackened skin, skinny and ugly as all get out. Yup, that's the savior I know that is portrayed in all of the art that I have seen. XD
Religion is so controversial. The Bible - and many books like it are filled with hypocrisy and bitter contempt for those that do not share their views. I can't belong to a faith that excludes everyone else's beliefs and tells them they are the ones that are going to Hell - even though they are the ones that created the concept to begin with.
I like the concept of having a higher power than myself - but I can not force myself to believe in concepts that I do not agree with.
I'm sure why the tirade and reaffirmation of your personal beliefs and concepts...but sharing a discription from the books shouldn't cause any real problems. Surely nobody believes Jesus was the handsome Anglo Saxon depicted in paintings by people who never laid eyes on the man. It makes perfect sense that Jesus would be thin, he walked wherever he was going, and fasted at least 2Xs a week if he followed Jewish traditions, and we know he did. He spent his time outside and people of that area get very very dark skinned when exposed to the sun, an olive complexion is not a green olive but a black one.
LOL...I doubt anyone would be condemed to "hell" for not thnking he was a looker. According to the books he didn't quite look like himself after the resurrection since his own friends and followers didn't recognize him. Also the Angel that spoke to John in the revelation, said he was alive and died and was made alive forever more (Sounds like Jesus to me) and that he had bronze feet. So appearances don't count for much, they keep changing.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/560#post_3493257
Jesus always called himself
the son of man...do you want me to tell you how many times? I guess that means Christianity does not exist...and we know it does.
Here are a just a few reference to Jesus being referred to as "the Son of God", including affirmations from Jesus himself as well as God.
Matthew 16:
13 Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of man is? 14 And they said, Some say]John the Baptist; some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mark I:
9.And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens rent asunder, and the Spirit as a dove descending upon him: 11 And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.
Mark 3:
10 For he had healed many; insomuch that as many as had plagues pressed upon him that they might touch him. 11 And the unclean spirits, whensoever they beheld him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
Luke I:
31 And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 And Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 4:
41 And demons also came out from many, crying out, and saying, Thou art the Son of God.
And rebuking them, he suffered them not to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ [Messiah]
>John I:
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize in water, he said unto me, Upon whomsoever thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and abiding upon him, the same is he that baptizes in the Holy Spirit. 34 And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.
John 10:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), 36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemes; because I said, I am the Son of God?

There are a multitude of reference to Son of God and Son of Man. To Christians, Son of Man refers to Jesus' humanity, since his mother was human. It does not, however, negate his Father, God. The connection between God and humanity is through the blood and flesh of the His Son's body which is clearly laid out in the Last Supper and finally in the Crucifixion. God would not have blood and flesh, except through his Son, Jesus. To Christians, this is the holy covenant between God and man.
Now, that is the interpretation for Christians, and, in the New Testament, it is convincing---unless you toss the New Testament and just consider the Old as the Word of God--in which case, Christianity is an invalid belief system. I have the feeling, you believe, as most Jews believe, that Jesus was not the Son of God and think that Christians have misinterpreted much?
 

darthtang aw

Active Member

So do the Mormons for that matter... they have their own book...
a book that can be cross referenced by other historical writings we have unearthed over the centuries.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/560#post_3493330
Christianity also has no basis in fact - they have a book...
So do the Mormons for that matter... they have their own book...
Does a book written by man make God and Jesus exist and become true?
You are so wrong about that. Taken out of the religious content, historical scholars consider the Bible a primary historical source and the texts have been studied extensively as such.
We are talking about race and ethnicity, not the validity of the religion. Jesus was born in Judea, which, at the time, was Near Asia, not Africa where blacks originate. However, there are no references to his physical appearance as a man. And, while there were black or mixed race Jews in Africa, Jesus was from Judea (Near Asia). At the end of the day, it is all speculation, unless we find Jesus' body and confirm through DNA studies.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/560#post_3493339
Here are a just a few reference to Jesus being referred to as "the Son of God", including affirmations from Jesus himself as well as God.
Matthew 16:
13 Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of man is? 14 And they said, Some say]John the Baptist; some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mark I:
9.And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan. num" style="padding-bottom: 0px; margin: 0px 3px 0px 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; font-weight: bold; padding-top: 0px">10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens rent asunder, and the Spirit as a dove descending upon him: 11 And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.
Mark 3:
10 For he had healed many; insomuch that as many as had plagues pressed upon him that they might touch him. 11 And the unclean spirits, whensoever they beheld him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

Luke I:
31 And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. -size: 14px; padding-top: 0px">34 And Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 4:
41 And demons also came out from many, crying out, and saying, Thou art the Son of God. And rebuking them, he suffered them not to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ [Messiah]
John I:
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize in water, he said unto me, Upon whomsoever thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and abiding upon him, the same is he that baptizes in the Holy Spirit. 34 And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.

John 10:

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? inline; font-family: arial; color: rgb(51,51,51); font-size: 14px; padding-top: 0px">35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), 36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemes; because I said, I am the Son of God?
There are a multitude of reference to Son of God and Son of Man. To Christians, Son of Man refers to Jesus' humanity, since his mother was human. It does not, however, negate his Father, God. The connection between God and humanity is through the blood and flesh of the His Son's body which is clearly laid out in the Last Supper and finally in the Crucifixion. God would not have blood and flesh, except through his Son, Jesus. To Christians, this is the holy covenant between God and man.
Now, that is the interpretation for Christians, and, in the New Testament, it is convincing---unless you toss the New Testament and just consider the Old as the Word of God--in which case, Christianity is an invalid belief system. I have the feeling, you believe, as most Jews believe, that Jesus was not the Son of God and think that Christians have misinterpreted much?

Beth, Adam is the son of God, and there are many, many sons of God mentioned in the book of Job. The Satan is recorded as counted among the sons of God....he was called a bright and shining star until he was found guilty. That doesn't mean he was no longer a son of God.
What Peter was saying when asked by Jesus who do you say I am...his answer of "You are the Christ, the son of the living God. He was actually saying he believed he was the promised Messiah, not declaring Jesus to be a half god/half man like Hurcules. Adding the Son of the living God means, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (That is who the Living God is) . So Jesus was the Son of God, so are you, and every created person.... we all have God as our Father, because we are his creation.
Christianity is not an invalid belief. However, MODERN ideas may be quite off the wall, but the books and the eye witness accounts are just fine. IMO. The ONLY scriptures are the first 5 books called the Torah. Then you have the Holy writtings of the prophets, then you have the gospels and the letters. Then in the last put together portion that makes up the Christian Bible is the revelation that John saw on the island of Patmos. Then there are the quotes from Mohammed who claims that an Angel forced him to speak....he said that his qoutes were to be put WITH the writtings not to be used as a stand alone book. When the Apostles refer to the scriptures in their letters, they are not talking about their own letters, but the scriptures which Modern Christianity refer to as an "OLD" testament and for some crazy reason think it has been done away with.
I say all that to point something out. We don't understand the books as well as we think we do. Instead of trying to squeeze God into our box of belief systems, we should be trying to squeeze our thinking into his book and learn to learn. We are instructed to search the scriptures for in them you THINK you have eternal life, it is those books that tell you about me. {John 5:39) This is quoted as Jesus speaking. Search the scriptures, not the letters or the revelations.
This is just my personal opinion: I think Christians, Muslims and Jews would be much better off examining those books instead of trying to protect their religious beliefs. If your religious beliefs match the books you are fine and can stand on the precept. However if it can be shown to you that you your belief is in error according to the books...accept that, and learn and then move forward.
 
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