Evolution vs. Intelligent Design

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/700#post_3495932
The fact that it's called Aesop's FAIRY-TAILS, should be a clue.
True, but there are other writings and religious text that also have fables and myths, Egyptian religion, the Sumerian religion, etc. The Egyptian religion lasted for over 4 thousand years virtually unchanged....yet, now how many people believe it now? To tell you the truth, modern scholars tie aspects of the ancient Egyptian religion to the Hebrew religion. So, while you can debunk bionics's example, his premise is at the very least real and not just an attempt to justify his lack of faith. Even if we all accept that the Torah translations are the purist, there is also evidence that the Hebrews borrowed from other ancient religions, just as the Christians borrowed from the Greco-Roman pagan religions.
It is this that make modern peoples question the entire religious text at their word.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/700#post_3496025
True, but there are other writings and religious text that also have fables and myths, Egyptian religion, the Sumerian religion, etc. The Egyptian religion lasted for over 4 thousand years virtually unchanged....yet, now how many people believe it now? To tell you the truth, modern scholars tie aspects of the ancient Egyptian religion to the Hebrew religion. So, while you can debunk bionics's example, his premise is at the very least real and not just an attempt to justify his lack of faith. Even if we all accept that the Torah translations are the purist, there is also evidence that the Hebrews borrowed from other ancient religions, just as the Christians borrowed from the Greco-Roman pagan religions.
It is this that make modern peoples question the entire religious text at their word.
True enough, all the ancient religions did believe they had it right, and the Hindus still have over 100 gods. It's also true that I believe my God is the real one, and so I can only address things from that stand point. I am not neutral on religion.
However I feel part of what you had to say needs some clarity. The Hebrews were pagans, just like all the world around them. Jacobs daughter hid an idol under the camels furniture and sat on it claiming she had that time of the month...she knew no man wanted to touch where she sat and could hide the idol perfectly.
The Hebrew slaves while released from Egypt, couldn't get the Egypt out of themselves and built a golden calf to worship when Moses was away too long on the mountain. The big seeing eye in the hand is part of that culture, keeping away evil by the hand holding up to stop the eye, which is the symbol of RA an Egyptian god. Moses knew the people would stray from the books and told them so, his warning is contained in the scripture of the Torah.
The original scrolls (scripture) were written by Moses. Who got his information when he talked with God in the tent of meeting when the cloud covered it.
All that followed afterward are considered commentaries: There we have the Holy writings of the prophets, which carry the same merit as the letters and gospels of the "new" testament. They contain eye witness accounts, and personal experiences. We then have the Chronicles of the Kings, which explains mostly the type of human kings Israel had through the ages...the good and the bad.
King Solomon who was given wisdom to care for the kingdom, loved many women, had made them his wives, and those women were from pagan religious backgrounds. So that was his error, and his punishment is declared, it affected many people. LOL...still it was part of Gods great plan, because of that scattering of the people...God seeded the Earth with the bloodline of Isaac, the lost sheep of the house of Israel is Ephraim, the children of the scattered. So in today's term...Who is Ephraim? Rabbis say that when a person hungers after the God of Israel, it is because the bloodline of a righteous Jew can be found in them, these become converts to Judaism and are accepted as one born in Gods house. Jesus said he was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the books also say that God knows them that are his.
Now, PEOPLE...People follow their heart, and mostly do what they think best. The point I'm trying to make is that people when it concerns religion are very different from the books. The Quran is a perfect example, the religion of Islam may use the book, but they created their own religion from that book. Of that, all humans are very guilty of doing.
As I was saying to Pez....what you do with what you are given, reveals where you fit in the role you are given to play in Gods plan. LOL...according to MY religion.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/720#post_3496030
The original scrolls (scripture) were written by Moses. Who got his information when he talked with God in the tent of meeting when the cloud covered it.
Say what? Everything I was taught about Moses was the only time he spoke with "God" was went he was on top of Mount Sinai, and the burning bush. God created the Ten Commandments, and the rest is history...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_authorship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabernacle
So what's the deal with the Oral Torah? From what I read, there were certain times where nothing could be written down, so this "oral version" was kept and passed down generation to generation. How accurate would this be if all you had for verification is 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and so on accounts of what was originally told to Moses by God?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Torah
It states eventually these oral interpretations were written down in the Talmud, which sounds like some offspring of the Torah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud
Sorry to say, but the Jewish religion seems somewhat convoluted, where you have all these different tangents as to where all this information is stored - Old Testament, Torah, Oral Torah, Talmud, Mishnah, Midrash....
I'd get lost and confused just trying to keep up with it all.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/720#post_3496043
Say what? Everything I was taught about Moses was the only time he spoke with "God" was went he was on top of Mount Sinai, and the burning bush. God created the Ten Commandments, and the rest is history...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_authorship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabernacle
So what's the deal with the Oral Torah? From what I read, there were certain times where nothing could be written down, so this "oral version" was kept and passed down generation to generation. How accurate would this be if all you had for verification is 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and so on accounts of what was originally told to Moses by God?
On the above comment, you are incorrect. That would be the Half Torah portion, When our people were forbidden to read from the Torah, a portion of the writings of the Prophets would remind us of the Torah portion. A Chumash is a compilation of the first five books of the Bible and corresponding readings from the prophets, organized in the order of the weekly Torah portions. As Paul tried to explain, we are all expected to say and read the same things. All Jews everywhere, no matter where we are....all read the same portion of the Torah each Sabbath to re-unite us a family, so that we are all on the same page every Sabbath.
It states eventually these oral interpretations were written down in the Talmud, which sounds like some offspring of the Torah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud
Sorry to say, but the Jewish religion seems somewhat convoluted, where you have all these different tangents as to where all this information is stored - Old Testament, Torah, Oral Torah, Talmud, Mishnah, Midrash....
I'd get lost and confused just trying to keep up with it all.
The Talmud contains details of how things were done. The customs of how to do things were right before their eyes and no need to write it down at the time. Prime example is the Commandment to honor the Sabbath and keep it holy. Without the custom of how to do so...you wouldn't know how to keep the Sabbath, and since breaking the Sabbath could carry a death sentence it would be insane to just let everyone decide for themselves how to go about doing that.
For a long time rabbis did not want the oral traditions written down, for fear the pagan religions could copy the customs.
After the Jews were dispersed and being scattered. It became necessary to write down the customs and the how to information. Without that vital information we wouldn't know HOW to follow the commandment that God gave to Moses. The Talmud (AKA Oral Torah) is flexible, because people change while the law does not. For example, the commandment says wear Tzitzit (fringes) on the corner of our garment...but how can we do such a thing nowadays...we don't have corners on our garments anymore. So we created a garment called a Tallit, and we attach the Tzitzit to it and fulfill the commandment. The Talmud explains these things and how to make the fringes, there a certain number of knots and wraps to create it...all the Torah says is that we are commanded to wear them...The Torah is like a skeleton, the Talmud is like the muscles attached to it that move the skeleton to action.
So while the law of wearing the Tzitzit remains unchangeable as a Torah commandment, the Talmud allows some flex to be able to do what is commanded.
The Mishnah contain the Talmud and the written results of the Rabbis who studied it, their arguments and the points they made to each other, and from it decided the Halachah (rules) to live by each day, what to do on certain days. We may read in detail how each rule was enacted and the why. When Jesus told us to not remove the fence set up by the elders, he was referring to the fence laws of the Mishnah. The Rabbis of old, had made rules (a fence) around the commandments to prevent us from actually breaking the Torah commandment.
The Midrash are just stories derived from the books, or a made up examples to help explain things and teach lessons and values to the listener. Jesus was very good at it, such as his story of the Gardener and the owner and master of the vineyard. The 10 virgins waiting on the groom, 5 were ready, and 5 were not and needed for oil for their lamps.
Yes it can be very confusing. The thing is.... in Judaism, we are required to think and make decisions, not blindly follow the leader. You are more than welcome to just tag along with the Rabbi, say AMEN when he finishes a prayer, but you are also welcome to study and make up your own mind on how you will conduct your life. You can always ask the Rabbis opinion, and what the law contains on the subject. The Apostle Paul touched on this subject and said, blessed are those content, with a clear conscience on the things he decides to do or not do.

 

[beth]

Now Moses was an Egyptian who was raised within the close circle of the Pharaoh's family. He would certainly be very familiar with every aspect of Egyptian religion and laws. If one is reasonable, you can guess that he would have actually practiced Egyptian religion prior to his fallout with the Egyptians. Do you see any similarities handed down by our Judeo-Christian beliefs with that of ancient Egyptians?
Did God appear to an Egyptian before he appeared to Moses?
Did Moses take from Egypt more then the Hebrew people?
Commandments circa 1400 BCE during Egypt’s New Kingdom following the exodus from Egypt
I am the lord your God
Thou shall have no gods before me
Thou shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy
Honor thy father and thy mother
Thou shall not murder
Thou shall not commit adultery
Thou shall not steal
Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Thou shall not covet
Citation required by deceased as they are judged by the Goddess Ma’at/ Book of the Dead beginning 1800 BCE with original pyramid text dated to 2375 BCE (The pyramid texts are the oldest text in known history preceding any Hebrew text)




I have not committed robbery with violence








I have not stolen








I have not slain men and women








I have not stolen food








I have not swindled offerings








I have not stolen from God








I have not told lies








I have not carried away food








I have not cursed








I have not closed my ears to truth




I have not committed adultery
/>




I have not made anyone cry








I have not caused sorrow without reason








I have not assaulted anyone








I am not deceitful








I have not stolen anyone's land








I have not been an eavesdropper








I have not falsely accused anyone








I have not been angry without reason
















I have not polluted myself








I have not terrorized anyone








I have not disobeyed the law








I have not been excessively angry








I have not blasphemed








I have not behaved with violence








I have not caused disruption of peace








I have not acted hastily or without thought








I have not overstepped my boundaries of concern








I have not exaggerated my words when speaking








I have not worked evil



r />



I have not used evil thoughts, words or deeds








I have not polluted the water








I have not spoken angrily or arrogantly








I have not cursed anyone in thought, word or deed








I have not placed myself on a pedestal








I have not stolen that which belongs to God








I have not stolen from or disrespected the deceased








I have not taken food from a child








I have not acted with insolence








I have not destroyed property belonging to the gods

 

[flower]

Beth,
Moses was indeed a Hebrew raised as an Egyptian, I am of the thought that God spoke to Moses in a way he could grasp who he was talking to. For example..."remove the shoes off your feet, the place you are standing on is Holy ground". Egyptians removed their shoes and carried when they stood before a god, and hieroglyphics show that.
HaShem told him what laws to keep and hold to, in order to be a holy people. The ten plagues and the splitting of the Reed sea, the cloud that came and hovered over the tent of meeting, and would remove and the people followed, when the cloud stayed they stayed. So Moses didn't just bring a bunch of words he got from Egyptian ways. HaShem himself backed up those words. The commandments you listed are highlighted in red, the rest were basic how to live among other humans. He did not bring the culture of sacrificing children, walking on fire and a slew of other horrible customs that made up the rest of the Egyptian and pagan religions.
Oh and looking at your list...only 6 of the 10 appear that you highlighted in red. I'm not sure what to think on the "New Egyptian kingdom after the Exodus...unless after the 10 plagues, the Egyptian Pharaoh did say...That HaShem God of the Hebrews is God, and adopted the law to live by...like it showed in the movie the 10 commandments....When Pharaoh declared HIS (Moses) god is God.
Isn't after the Exodus after Moses left and received the commandments on the mount?

 

[beth]

Sorry, the "New Kingdom" is one of the classifications historians use to describe periods of ancient Egyptian periods:
Old Kingdom
Middle Kingdom
New Kingdom
Graeco-Roman period Etc.
Oh, and Egyptians were did not indulge in human sacrifice. They were a fairly advanced society.

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/720#post_3496099
Oh, and Egyptians were did not indulge in human sacrifice.
Well...maybe just a few.

2 (the cannibal) Quills

 

[pezenfuego]

WARNING: NOT FOR THE SQUEEMISH
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xdm5he_richard-dawkins-demonstrates-laryng_tech/

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/720#post_3496099
Sorry, the "New Kingdom" is one of the classifications historians use to describe periods of ancient Egyptian periods:
Old Kingdom
Middle Kingdom
New Kingdom
Graeco-Roman period Etc.
Oh, and Egyptians were did not indulge in human sacrifice. They were a fairly advanced society.
Well if I remember my Mummy movies...didn't they kill all the slaves after they buried all the Pharaohs treasures and sarcophagus. JK
I don't know much about Egyptians except they made mummies that are well preserved by removing the brain through the nose and putting the organs into jars, then filling the body with flowers and herbs, built the pyramids and wrote hieroglyphics....Oh and worshiped cats.
Anyway, you said New Kingdom after the Exodus....what exodus? The only Exodus I know of is Moses leading Israel out of Egypt. ...
Isn't it also possible that the Hebrew Joseph who ruled Egypt second only to Pharaoh also has some influence on Egypt. Moses came 433 years after Joesph. So it's also possible that the right way to live was known to Abraham who passed that to his son Isaac, who passed it to his sons, who landed up in Egypt before they were enslaved by a Pharaoh who knew not Joseph...
We are talking ancient times, maybe the righteous way of life now called the 10 commandments was a basic concept, and was already known but not formally given as a law until the meeting on the mount. The Holy One was known throughout the land, because the children of Ishmael whom Moses went to live with after he was exiled from Egypt also knew about the God of Abraham.
The Egyptians had many gods, and wouldn't have thought the God of the Hebrews was anything to really concern themselves about until Moses showed up demanding they release the people to go worship him.
So I really don't think Moses borrowed his moral compass from the Egyptians, I think it was the other way around. The Egyptians borrowed from Joseph and that's why they are so similar in moral code.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/720#post_3496129
So I really don't think Moses borrowed his moral compass from the Egyptians, I think it was the other way around. The Egyptians borrowed from Joseph and that's why they are so similar in moral code.
That would totally be trying to shape history toward your own belief system, Flower. A bit of history, if you are interested:
There is no mention of biblical figures anywhere other then in Hebrew text, so historians have to piece together a history based on what they know happened in Egyptian, and relate it to what bible text seem to say—given the fact that the bible does not provide dates, or much of a point of reference.
If Joseph existed, then he is placed in Egypt during the time where the pharaohs of Egypt were actually Hyksos (not Egyptian) The Hyksos was a name given to these invaders by the Egyptians which means “foreign rulers”. Now, guess what? The Hyksos were Semites—as are the Hebrews. They ruled Lower Egypt for 150 years before being expelled by Egyptian warrior princes. But, while there, lands in the fertile delta region of Egypt (including Goshen) was given to the Hebrews to settle. The Hyksos places many of their own kind, and we can guess that included Hebrews, in positions of power.
Following the expulsion of the Hyksos, the Hebrews occupying the most fertile lands of Egypt fell out of favor fast. In fact, they were looked upon as immigrant invaders that needed to be suppressed. There are actual Egyptian references to suppressing the Hyksos in the delta (Goshen), which, in the mind of the Egyptian rulers, the Hebrews were lumped in since they were all Semite people. The Hyksos capital (Avaris---later called Pi-Ramesses) was sacked and evacuated as a city. It was thereafter used for storage and military camps until the reign of Ramesses II who made Egypt’s capital there (Pi-Ramesses). I mention all that because I think there are biblical references about it.
Egyptians maintained their near unwavering belief system and moral code 4 thousand years— It is impossible to believe that they would alter their belief system for foreign invaders who usurped Egyptians. In truth, the ruling Hyksos seemed to have adopted the religion and belief system of the Egyptians while they were in power. The Egyptian kings that mercilessly expelled the Hyksos were fierce warriors and thereafter invaded Canaan and Syria expanding the boarders of Egypt into all of those regions. Egyptian rulers also had the habit of destroying all references to previous enemies, and re-writing their own self-serving history. It is not believable that they would have adapted the moral code of their enemies.
It is more likely that Moses, raised as an Egyptian prince in every way, had an Egyptian moral code that he carried with him. How does someone raised a certain way suddenly become someone else entirely? The Egyptian moral code I mention, predates the Joseph timeline anyway.
Wow. Ancient History 101 LOL

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/720#post_3496148
It is more likely that Moses, raised as an Egyptian prince in every way, had an Egyptian moral code that he carried with him. How does someone raised a certain way suddenly become someone else entirely?
That's just speculation isn't it? What do we really know about Moses in his childhood, or how he really felt growing up with egyptian royalty. Perhaps he felt different inside his whole life and a long chain of events led up to him turning into the man he was or what we know of him today.
BTW, didn't Moses kill a man? Just wonderin

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/720#post_3496148
That would totally be trying to shape history toward your own belief system, Flower. A bit of history, if you are interested:
There is no mention of biblical figures anywhere other then in Hebrew text, so historians have to piece together a history based on what they know happened in Egyptian, and relate it to what bible text seem to say—given the fact that the bible does not provide dates, or much of a point of reference.
If Joseph existed, then he is placed in Egypt during the time where the pharaohs of Egypt were actually Hyksos (not Egyptian) The Hyksos was a name given to these invaders by the Egyptians which means “foreign rulers”. Now, guess what? The Hyksos were Semites—as are the Hebrews. They ruled Lower Egypt for 150 years before being expelled by Egyptian warrior princes. But, while there, lands in the fertile delta region of Egypt (including Goshen) was given to the Hebrews to settle. The Hyksos places many of their own kind, and we can guess that included Hebrews, in positions of power.
Following the expulsion of the Hyksos, the Hebrews occupying the most fertile lands of Egypt fell out of favor fast. In fact, they were looked upon as immigrant invaders that needed to be suppressed. There are actual Egyptian references to suppressing the Hyksos in the delta (Goshen), which, in the mind of the Egyptian rulers, the Hebrews were lumped in since they were all Semite people. The Hyksos capital (Avaris---later called Pi-Ramesses) was sacked and evacuated as a city. It was thereafter used for storage and military camps until the reign of Ramesses II who made Egypt’s capital there (Pi-Ramesses). I mention all that because I think there are biblical references about it.
Egyptians maintained their near unwavering belief system and moral code 4 thousand years— It is impossible to believe that they would alter their belief system for foreign invaders who usurped Egyptians. In truth, the ruling Hyksos seemed to have adopted the religion and belief system of the Egyptians while they were in power. The Egyptian kings that mercilessly expelled the Hyksos were fierce warriors and thereafter invaded Canaan and Syria expanding the boarders of Egypt into all of those regions. Egyptian rulers also had the habit of destroying all references to previous enemies, and re-writing their own self-serving history. It is not believable that they would have adapted the moral code of their enemies.
It is more likely that Moses, raised as an Egyptian prince in every way, had an Egyptian moral code that he carried with him. How does someone raised a certain way suddenly become someone else entirely? The Egyptian moral code I mention, predates the Joseph timeline anyway.
Wow. Ancient History 101 LOL
LOL..I was delighted to read this...it explains how a Pharaoh could come into power that "knew not Joseph" I did do a little googling on Egypt after your post....very interesting reading. From what I read the New Kingdom of Egypt was however right there at the time of Moses, the article however said IF Moses and the exodus were actual events. It seems the exodus was not recorded by the Egyptians, but that it was a common thing for them to be picky about what they recorded and didn't when things didn't go well for them. So the author didn't say it never happened, just that there was no record of it besides the Bible...Since the Bible was compiled from the ancient records from the Hebrew side, the event was recorded. IMO...Ancient Israel recorded the good and the bad events of their history. Which makes their records more accurate than Egypt's don't you think?
I'm not sure they wouldn't adopt moral codes of different gods, since they had quite a few of them, but I got that consideration from what the Greeks did, not from anything I read on Egypt. I don't think Egypt mixed them altogether into one religion like the Greeks did, but I could see them knowing about the God of Abraham. Also moral codes of how to treat people and respect a god are all very similar. The Zoroastrianism for example....very old and very similar.
What does change are the ways in which a god would be honored. In that line of thought, the God of Abraham was very different from the gods of the pagans, or Egypt and what was set up as a way of life by Moses set Israel apart from all the world. So while the moral code matches, the way of life did not.

 

[2quills]

The jewish encyclopedia says that the hebrews addopted some of the Hittites religion.
Hittites also dwelt at Hebron, for Abraham was buried in a cave in the field of Ephron, son of Zohar, a Hittite (Gen. xxiii. 10, 20; xxv. 9; xlix. 30; l. 13), and the Hittites preserved a certain individuality as late as David's time, since Uriah and Abimelech are expressly characterized as Hittites (I Sam. xxvi. 6; II Sam. xi. 3, 6, 17, 21, 24; xii. 10; xxiii. 39; I Kings xv. 5; I Chron. xi. 41). They were regarded as aliens, however, and taxed as such by Solomon (I Kings ix. 20-21; II Chron. viii. 7-8). The relations between the Israelites, on the one hand, and the Hittites and the rest of the conquered peoples, on the other, had long been friendly, for the Hebrews had not only adopted some portion of the Hittites' religious cult soon after the invasion of Palestine, but had intermarried with them (Judges iii. 5-6), as Esau had done (Gen. xxvi. 34) and as Rebekah feared Jacob might do (Gen. xxvii. 46).

 

[beth]

The problem with the Hebrew bible as a history, is that it is very ambiguous about dates, who, when, where, etc. The Egyptian sources come from scribes who wrote things down, and from kings who wrote about the activities on walls, letters, text. Writing things down was a way of life for the Egyptians. And their writings are very specific about the who, what, when, where. The Egyptians were prolific record-keepers on all aspects of daily life. Yes, Egyptian kings tended to be favorable to themselves when writing history, but so were Hebrews! Come on. The Hebrews and the their God always came out on top! LOL The outcome of the Exodus for instance.
Now, perhaps you know something interesting about Egyptian history. During the 18 Dynasty (New Kingdom) there was a pharaoh, Amenhotep IV, who historian credit with being the first, yes the first, monotheist. He reigned for 17 years. When he converted to monotheism he changed his name to Akhenaten (meaning the living spirit of the Aten--the one and only God he now worshiped). He forced the removal of reference to other gods, and forbade the worship of all the other pantheon of Egyptian gods. Only the worship of Aten was allowed. As you can imagine there was unparalleled strife over this in Egypt. Akhenaten was instructed by Aten to establish a city and place of worship that had never been contaminated by the previous gods. He moved his capital city to the very center of Egypt, it was called Akhenaten, nowadays Armana, where he built a great temple and alter to the One-God. Stele were erected at every corner of the city to commemorate the Aten and the boundaries of the city. Aten looked like no other god found in Egypt. Here is a stone in the royal tomb of Akhenaten, with his wife Nefertiti, and 2 daughters worshiping Aten at the alter. Aten is depicted as the sun in the heavens.

Flower, since you are SWF's biblical scholar, is there a Hebrew bible reference anywhere that might reference this pharaoh, his city, the alter erected?
Also, in case you didn't know this history, Akhenten was the father of the boy-king, Tutankhamun (Tut).

 

[2quills]

And we know when, approximately the exodus happened? There are conflicting results coming from the bible and what some scholars are suggesting. That perhaps the exodus may be accounted for during the transition period between the old and new kingdom in Egypt? If that's the case then akhenatens reign came in long afterwards.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/720#post_3496172
The problem with the Hebrew bible as a history, is that it is very ambiguous about dates, who, when, where, etc. The Egyptian sources come from scribes who wrote things down, and from kings who wrote about the activities on walls, letters, text. Writing things down was a way of life for the Egyptians. And their writings are very specific about the who, what, when, where. The Egyptians were prolific record-keepers on all aspects of daily life. Yes, Egyptian kings tended to be favorable to themselves when writing history, but so were Hebrews! Come on. The Hebrews and the their God always came out on top! LOL The outcome of the Exodus for instance.
Now, perhaps you know something interesting about Egyptian history. During the 18 Dynasty (New Kingdom) there was a pharaoh, Amenhotep IV, who historian credit with being the first, yes the first, monotheist. He reigned for 17 years. When he converted to monotheism he changed his name to Akhenaten (meaning the living spirit of the Aten--the one and only God he now worshiped). He forced the removal of reference to other gods, and forbade the worship of all the other pantheon of Egyptian gods. Only the worship of Aten was allowed. As you can imagine there was unparalleled strife over this in Egypt. Akhenaten was instructed by Aten to establish a city and place of worship that had never been contaminated by the previous gods. He moved his capital city to the very center of Egypt, it was called Akhenaten, nowadays Armana, where he built a great temple and alter to the One-God. Stele were erected at every corner of the city to commemorate the Aten and the boundaries of the city. Aten looked like no other god found in Egypt. Here is a stone in the royal tomb of Akhenaten, with his wife Nefertiti, and 2 daughters worshiping Aten at the alter. Aten is depicted as the sun in the heavens.

Flower, since you are SWF's biblical scholar, is there a Hebrew bible reference anywhere that might reference this pharaoh, his city, the alter erected?
Also, in case you didn't know this history, Akhenten was the father of the boy-king, Tutankhamun (Tut).
Scholar????..LOL....LOL me?? NO.
The only references I know of where a king converted to follow the One God of Abraham would be a Persian King called Cyrus and the King in the days of the three Hebrew boys thrown into the fire, they converted to say HaShem was the GOD. I suppose The ONE God can be called anything by the people. What is important is that he is known as the ONE. The only problem I have with the SUN is that Constantine also thought his Sun god was the same one as the God of Abraham.
How they worship a god actually tells us who they worshiped. So to see if the Pharaoh actually did follow the God of Israel we would have to study how he worshiped. There are those who are accounted as righteous people of HaShem, for following the laws of Noach (Noah) and perhaps that's what the Pharaoh did.
Just to say he worshiped a single god isn't really evidence of being a righteous man (according to my religion, I'm not saying anyone here is unrighteous)... I'm sure the followers of the sun god who tossed their own children into the fire were certain that they worshiped the right one. One thing to consider... if that Pharaoh did acknowledge the One God, it would not be known to Israel, they were forbidden to ever return to Egypt...those who even threatened to do so were severely punished by HaShem. So I'm sure such a Pharaoh wouldn't be recorded.
The books of the Kings tell us many bad evil things the Israelite kings did, and how they were conquered by the Medes, the Persians and the Philistines and completely dispersed by Nebuchadnezzar. So Israel did record their downfalls, unlike the Egyptian ego, they attributed it to their disobedience of following HaShem the wrong way, forgetting him altogether, or worshiping idols as to why they were overcome.
The Egyptians didn't record dates either, their writings are told the same as Israel...in the days of the King of "_______ " this or that took place. However the Egyptians were masters at preservation. They had mummies and pyramids that can be dated by modern methods and so have a time line. The Israelite Kings didn't have that going for them, so WHEN such a king was alive and did this or that isn't a good reference for us to make as accurate a time line.
I will say this...Israel had a habit of recording history in song to pass along. I do believe Moses learned to record everything by writing it down. So I wouldn't be a bit surprised that was why God wanted him to be raised Egyptian to begin with...He always has a plan.

 

[darthtang aw]

I could be entirely wrong on this, but the reason we know Egyptions changed the history to suit themselves is they took slaves from other people or nations they conquered. It is through the history of these people we are able to piece together the contradictions historically.
Now, Flower please correct me if I am wrong. The Hebrew people were told by God, when they waged war against the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and the Jebusites, they were to kill them all down to the last child. Taking no slaves/ wives or children from these people as their own. This did many things in my opinion to benefit the Hebrew People. But the way this fits into the current discussion is there would be no historical record by these people to counter the history written by the Hebrews during this time.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/720#post_3496206
I could be entirely wrong on this, but the reason we know Egyptians changed the history to suit themselves is they took slaves from other people or nations they conquered. It is through the history of these people we are able to piece together the contradictions historically.
Now, Flower please correct me if I am wrong. The Hebrew people were told by God, when they waged war against the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and the Jebusites, they were to kill them all down to the last child. Taking no slaves/ wives or children from these people as their own. This did many things in my opinion to benefit the Hebrew People. But the way this fits into the current discussion is there would be no historical record by these people to counter the history written by the Hebrews during this time.
Well there are still Hittites, so not all of them were killed. Also the Egyptians were not in the lot of those to be killed, just the first born and God took control of that destruction personally...which are the people we were talking about. I don't think they changed history, just left out anything embarrassing to them. I'm not a big history buff, I know Israel was commanded to destroy all the ___ites. I also know that those people are still around, so it must have been certain cities...but again that's just a guess on my part.
Much of the accounts of the beginnings...such as the story of Noah exists in many cultures. A version of the Adam and Eve story I believe was also told, with a bit of a twist when we throw in Lilith. I would think the wars of the Medes and Persians would give an account of Israels capture. So there are some other people who gave some account, just not the one of the 10 commandments.
When it comes to ancient history we will never really know the whole story, perhaps it will give us something to discuss when we wake up to the great day when death is no longer around. I think we shall get a big surprise on what we had wrong and just what really went on.
Interestingly enough I watched a documentary on this very Pharaoh this afternoon. Seems he did indeed worship the sun god, not the God of Abraham...I was so disappointed. However his reason for destroying the statues of the Pharaohs was fascinating. Seems Egyptians believed that when they made a statue with a persons face, their soul lived on in the statue....that to crush or destroy such a statue you killed the person in the afterlife (a second death). The reason the images were destroyed was to ensure his full power as a god himself....according to the documentary.

 

[dragonzim]

Well there are still Hittites, so not all of them were killed. Also the Egyptians were not in the lot of those to be killed, just the first born and God took control of that destruction personally...which are the people we were talking about. I don't think they changed history, just left out anything embarrassing to them.  I'm not a big history buff, I know Israel was commanded to destroy all the ___ites. I also know that those people are still around, so it must have been certain cities...but again that's just a guess on my part.
Much of the accounts of the beginnings...such as the story of Noah exists in many cultures. A version of the Adam and Eve story I believe was also told, with a bit of a twist when we throw in Lilith. I would think the wars of the Medes and Persians would give an account of Israels capture. So there are some other people who gave some account, just not the one of the 10 commandments.
When it comes to ancient history we will never really know the whole story, perhaps it will give us something to discuss when we wake up to the great day when death is no longer around. I think we shall get a big surprise on what we had wrong and just what really went on.
Interestingly enough I watched a documentary on this very Pharaoh this afternoon. Seems he did indeed worship the sun god, not the God of Abraham...I was so disappointed. However his reason for destroying the statues of the Pharaohs was fascinating. Seems Egyptians believed that when they made a statue with a persons face, their soul lived on in the statue....that to crush or destroy such a statue you killed the person in the afterlife (a second death). The reason the images were destroyed was to ensure his full power as a god himself....according to the documentary.
Where are there still hittites?