Evolution vs. Intelligent Design
- Thread starter snakeblitz33
- Start date
reefraff
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/660#post_3495812
Hey I got a question. If God created man in his image then how do we know that God doesn't look like some kinda great ape?
Because god didn't say let us create ape in our image?
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/660#post_3495812
Hey I got a question. If God created man in his image then how do we know that God doesn't look like some kinda great ape?
Because god didn't say let us create ape in our image?
darthtang aw
Active Member
Hey I got a question. If God created man in his image then how do we know that God doesn't look like some kinda great ape?
Actually I believe and interpret this not to be meant as a physical description, but as a "spiritual" decision. I believe this refers directly to our ability to make moral judgements. No other creature on this planet seems to display this characteristic on a regular basis.
Actually I believe and interpret this not to be meant as a physical description, but as a "spiritual" decision. I believe this refers directly to our ability to make moral judgements. No other creature on this planet seems to display this characteristic on a regular basis.
geridoc
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495821
Actually I believe and interpret this not to be meant as a physical description, but as a "spiritual" decision. I believe this refers directly to our ability to make moral judgements. No other creature on this planet seems to display this characteristic on a regular basis.
I think that it isn't our ability to make moral judgements (many other species exhibit altruism, for example), but out ability to rationalize immoral judgements that sets us apart. We agonize over war, other species just fight.
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495821
Actually I believe and interpret this not to be meant as a physical description, but as a "spiritual" decision. I believe this refers directly to our ability to make moral judgements. No other creature on this planet seems to display this characteristic on a regular basis.
I think that it isn't our ability to make moral judgements (many other species exhibit altruism, for example), but out ability to rationalize immoral judgements that sets us apart. We agonize over war, other species just fight.
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495821
Actually I believe and interpret this not to be meant as a physical description, but as a "spiritual" decision. I believe this refers directly to our ability to make moral judgements. No other creature on this planet seems to display this characteristic on a regular basis.
Even some humans don't exhibit good moral judgement...
For example, ...
Serial killers
Rapists
Molesters
Paris Hilton
Murderers
Genocide leaders
Burglers
Theives
Wife Beaters
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495821
Actually I believe and interpret this not to be meant as a physical description, but as a "spiritual" decision. I believe this refers directly to our ability to make moral judgements. No other creature on this planet seems to display this characteristic on a regular basis.
Even some humans don't exhibit good moral judgement...
For example, ...
Serial killers
Rapists
Molesters
Paris Hilton
Murderers
Genocide leaders
Burglers
Theives
Wife Beaters
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495827
Even some humans don't exhibit good moral judgement...
For example, ...
Serial killers
Rapists
Molesters
Paris Hilton
Murderers
Genocide leaders
Burglers
Theives
Wife Beaters
So that's God's image, huh?
Do other animals have the ability to rationalize? Or make calculated decisions based on what they can see, taste or smell?
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495827
Even some humans don't exhibit good moral judgement...
For example, ...
Serial killers
Rapists
Molesters
Paris Hilton
Murderers
Genocide leaders
Burglers
Theives
Wife Beaters
So that's God's image, huh?
Do other animals have the ability to rationalize? Or make calculated decisions based on what they can see, taste or smell?
pezenfuego
Active Member
So that's God's image, huh?
Do other animals have the ability to rationalize? Or make calculated decisions based on what they can see, taste or smell?
It is so important to us to prove that we are the most advanced or overall best species on earth. But why? Of course other animals use their senses to make decisions. What else would they do with them? Perhaps I don't understand your question properly.
flower
Well-Known Member
The scriptures clearly state that God has no image, no form. The scripture can't be broken. He is everywhere and unseen. When it says we are made in his image...I think it is misinterpreted. In Hebrew the verb is switched. Going on that logic, the books will read.... we have the image God created, not as it has been translated that we were created in the image of God.
bang guy
Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495847
The scriptures clearly state that God has no image, no form. The scripture can't be broken. He is everywhere and unseen. When it says we are made in his image...I think it is misinterpreted. In Hebrew the verb is switched. Going on that logic, the books will read.... we have the image God created, not as it has been translated that we were created in the image of God.
Logically that makes so much more sense.
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495847
The scriptures clearly state that God has no image, no form. The scripture can't be broken. He is everywhere and unseen. When it says we are made in his image...I think it is misinterpreted. In Hebrew the verb is switched. Going on that logic, the books will read.... we have the image God created, not as it has been translated that we were created in the image of God.
Logically that makes so much more sense.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Makes more sense to me too. Because I have never been able to envision god in the form of a human being. God is everywhere and unseen would fall more into line with my way of thinking of how everything in the universe is connected on some level.
But we tread into a gray area when we start speaking literally about what is in a book that has been written by the hands of men, changed, misinterpreted and used as a tool to lord power over the helpless for ages.
I guess I just don't get why folks think or believe that we pretty much HAVE to be something way more advanced than anything else we know. Could that just be our vanity shinning through?
But we tread into a gray area when we start speaking literally about what is in a book that has been written by the hands of men, changed, misinterpreted and used as a tool to lord power over the helpless for ages.
I guess I just don't get why folks think or believe that we pretty much HAVE to be something way more advanced than anything else we know. Could that just be our vanity shinning through?
bionicarm
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495847
The scriptures clearly state that God has no image, no form. The scripture can't be broken. He is everywhere and unseen. When it says we are made in his image...I think it is misinterpreted. In Hebrew the verb is switched. Going on that logic, the books will read.... we have the image God created, not as it has been translated that we were created in the image of God.
Ergo, the problem with the Bible in general. Which "interpretation" are you to believe? How many times was the Bible interpreted before you came up with its latest "version"?
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495847
The scriptures clearly state that God has no image, no form. The scripture can't be broken. He is everywhere and unseen. When it says we are made in his image...I think it is misinterpreted. In Hebrew the verb is switched. Going on that logic, the books will read.... we have the image God created, not as it has been translated that we were created in the image of God.
Ergo, the problem with the Bible in general. Which "interpretation" are you to believe? How many times was the Bible interpreted before you came up with its latest "version"?
darthtang aw
Active Member
Even some humans don't exhibit good moral judgement...
For example, ...
Serial killers
Rapists
Molesters
Paris Hilton
Murderers
Genocide leaders
Burglers
Theives
Wife Beaters
If they didn't exhibit moral judgement why do they hide their actions. Disregarding morality does not equate ignorance of morality.
flower
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495860
Ergo, the problem with the Bible in general. Which "interpretation" are you to believe? How many times was the Bible interpreted before you came up with its latest "version"?
That's why I learned to read the Hebrew, so I could look at the original text and interpret it myself, for myself. I don't want to be standing before the most Holy at the end of days and try to say it's all the fault of somebody else that I didn't understand what the books said. So if you were all that paranoid that folks didn't interpret the book right, (such as myself) do it yourself.....that leaves you without excuse.
So to answer your question....I don't believe any interpretation, I read it for myself. The translations are a wonderful thing because learning the language is very difficult, and not something the average person can do, or have the time to try. We are so blessed to be able to have those translations to dig thru and read. It's a shame people like yourself use the fact that folks put things in their best words so the books can be understood, which make them a little different from the other guy.... and claim that's the very reason they don't believe.
The truth is you don't believe, and that is one of the excuses you think will fly. You have the right to not believe, you don't have to try and discredit the books to make yourself feel better about it.
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495860
Ergo, the problem with the Bible in general. Which "interpretation" are you to believe? How many times was the Bible interpreted before you came up with its latest "version"?
That's why I learned to read the Hebrew, so I could look at the original text and interpret it myself, for myself. I don't want to be standing before the most Holy at the end of days and try to say it's all the fault of somebody else that I didn't understand what the books said. So if you were all that paranoid that folks didn't interpret the book right, (such as myself) do it yourself.....that leaves you without excuse.
So to answer your question....I don't believe any interpretation, I read it for myself. The translations are a wonderful thing because learning the language is very difficult, and not something the average person can do, or have the time to try. We are so blessed to be able to have those translations to dig thru and read. It's a shame people like yourself use the fact that folks put things in their best words so the books can be understood, which make them a little different from the other guy.... and claim that's the very reason they don't believe.
The truth is you don't believe, and that is one of the excuses you think will fly. You have the right to not believe, you don't have to try and discredit the books to make yourself feel better about it.
bionicarm
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495886
That's why I learned to read the Hebrew, so I could look at the original text and interpret it myself, for myself. I don't want to be standing before the most Holy at the end of days and try to say it's all the fault of somebody else that I didn't understand what the books said. So if you were all that paranoid that folks didn't interpret the book right, (such as myself) do it yourself.....that leaves you without excuse.
So to answer your question....I don't believe any interpretation, I read it for myself. The translations are a wonderful thing because learning the language is very difficult, and not something the average person can do, or have the time to try. We are so blessed to be able to have those translations to dig thru and read. It's a shame people like yourself use the fact that folks put things in their best words so the books can be understood, which make them a little different from the other guy.... and claim that's the very reason they don't believe.
The truth is you don't believe, and that is one of the excuses you think will fly. You have the right to not believe, you don't have to try and discredit the books to make yourself feel better about it.
It has nothing to do with discrediting a book. You say you're making your own interpretation by learning Hebrew and "figuring it out yourself". Do you have proof that the Hebrew version you're translating is the first and actual "original"? Who knows what's been "lost in translation" over a couple of centuries. Again, I base my beliefs on facts, not what some book says MAY have happened where there's no viable physical proof that it did. What's funny is how you have all these different religious groups/orders that base their beliefs and strong convictions on how THEY interpret the book. You can't even get several of them to agree what many of the passages mean. So they twist the words to suit there specific religious agendas, then convince their followers that their versioin is the "true word of the gospel". I just don't get how someone can put so much faith in a book. If you ask a Scientologist, L. Ron Hubbard's little diddy trumps the Bible. Are the Mormons wrong in their interpretation that God actually lives near the planet Kolob? Why do Muslims believe their book is more important than yours? Which one is the "right one"?
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495886
That's why I learned to read the Hebrew, so I could look at the original text and interpret it myself, for myself. I don't want to be standing before the most Holy at the end of days and try to say it's all the fault of somebody else that I didn't understand what the books said. So if you were all that paranoid that folks didn't interpret the book right, (such as myself) do it yourself.....that leaves you without excuse.
So to answer your question....I don't believe any interpretation, I read it for myself. The translations are a wonderful thing because learning the language is very difficult, and not something the average person can do, or have the time to try. We are so blessed to be able to have those translations to dig thru and read. It's a shame people like yourself use the fact that folks put things in their best words so the books can be understood, which make them a little different from the other guy.... and claim that's the very reason they don't believe.
The truth is you don't believe, and that is one of the excuses you think will fly. You have the right to not believe, you don't have to try and discredit the books to make yourself feel better about it.
It has nothing to do with discrediting a book. You say you're making your own interpretation by learning Hebrew and "figuring it out yourself". Do you have proof that the Hebrew version you're translating is the first and actual "original"? Who knows what's been "lost in translation" over a couple of centuries. Again, I base my beliefs on facts, not what some book says MAY have happened where there's no viable physical proof that it did. What's funny is how you have all these different religious groups/orders that base their beliefs and strong convictions on how THEY interpret the book. You can't even get several of them to agree what many of the passages mean. So they twist the words to suit there specific religious agendas, then convince their followers that their versioin is the "true word of the gospel". I just don't get how someone can put so much faith in a book. If you ask a Scientologist, L. Ron Hubbard's little diddy trumps the Bible. Are the Mormons wrong in their interpretation that God actually lives near the planet Kolob? Why do Muslims believe their book is more important than yours? Which one is the "right one"?
flower
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495891
It has nothing to do with discrediting a book. You say you're making your own interpretation by learning Hebrew and "figuring it out yourself". Do you have proof that the Hebrew version you're translating is the first and actual "original"? Who knows what's been "lost in translation" over a couple of centuries. Again, I base my beliefs on facts, not what some book says MAY have happened where there's no viable physical proof that it did. What's funny is how you have all these different religious groups/orders that base their beliefs and strong convictions on how THEY interpret the book. You can't even get several of them to agree what many of the passages mean. So they twist the words to suit there specific religious agendas, then convince their followers that their versioin is the "true word of the gospel". I just don't get how someone can put so much faith in a book. If you ask a Scientologist, L. Ron Hubbard's little diddy trumps the Bible. Are the Mormons wrong in their interpretation that God actually lives near the planet Kolob? Why do Muslims believe their book is more important than yours? Which one is the "right one"?
The Torah has been very closely guarded over the centuries, and if a single letter in the Torah gets flaked off, then that scroll is rendered useless. It must be read and examined in it's entirety, by several Rabbis to make sure that was the only spot where a problem is found, and then repaired. The Torah scrolls are not mass produced like the Bible, it's hand rendered and copied exactly as the book before it. It is never interpreted, just meticulously copied. Before the copy is accepted, it is scrutinized by several Rabbis to be declared Kosher. If a mistake is made while writing the Torah, and that section contains the name of God, it is not repaired, but discarded and buried with dignity.
So to answer your question.....Yes I'm trusting the Torah is correct indeed. That Torah is what all the other writings use as a base to make sure theirs is correct.
Concerning the Muslims, they follow the Quran, and the Quran states that it is not a stand alone book but MUST be used with the books already written. So while the Quran is pure and written just as Mohamed quoted, the Islam religion is screwed up in how they follow it. Because the Muslims don't trust translations and don't want to study Hebrew, they don't study anything but the Quran and they trust that one because they can read it in their own language. Also if they disagree openly concerning the religion Islam, they are put to death.Their country is not like this one where freedom of religion is a right. I have talked with several Muslims and they secretly disagree with the religion Islam, but believe the Quran the way it was meant to be. Most Muslims are very sweet people who do their best to be kind and considerate.
The Christian Bible, while it has many translations is still pretty close to the Torah on scripture. That's why the "OLD testament" matches the Jewish Torah. Most Christians don't realize that the letters and the Gospels are not scripture...However those letters and eyewitness accounts have been carefully copied in their original form. Translations are taken from the reading of the original documents. Then you have folks who really didn't understand the Jewish people who wrote those accounts, and created a separate religion, that is based on the religion that Emperor Constantine had mingled with pagan customs....Which is also why Muslim and Jews don't trust anything Christian.
Therefore if you want to know what those original documents actually say, then you can study and read it yourself. The books are correct but the people who follow them are human and subject to human error. We do our best, we can't do better than that.
But here you stand. You make no effort to learn what the books even say, because you don't believe, which is fine. However then you have the audacity to criticize those who are trying to translate the books so the common people can read them and learn. Then claim that's the reason you don't believe, which isn't the truth. The truth is you don't believe and never based that belief on anything you ever read.
Maybe you were burned out by a religion...many people just can't stomach a certain religion, and actually seem to think that if that religion is off they all must be. I call that...tossing out the baby with the bath water.
For those who were burned by religion...If they ever again hunger for God....learn to eat the meat and throw away the bones.
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495891
It has nothing to do with discrediting a book. You say you're making your own interpretation by learning Hebrew and "figuring it out yourself". Do you have proof that the Hebrew version you're translating is the first and actual "original"? Who knows what's been "lost in translation" over a couple of centuries. Again, I base my beliefs on facts, not what some book says MAY have happened where there's no viable physical proof that it did. What's funny is how you have all these different religious groups/orders that base their beliefs and strong convictions on how THEY interpret the book. You can't even get several of them to agree what many of the passages mean. So they twist the words to suit there specific religious agendas, then convince their followers that their versioin is the "true word of the gospel". I just don't get how someone can put so much faith in a book. If you ask a Scientologist, L. Ron Hubbard's little diddy trumps the Bible. Are the Mormons wrong in their interpretation that God actually lives near the planet Kolob? Why do Muslims believe their book is more important than yours? Which one is the "right one"?
The Torah has been very closely guarded over the centuries, and if a single letter in the Torah gets flaked off, then that scroll is rendered useless. It must be read and examined in it's entirety, by several Rabbis to make sure that was the only spot where a problem is found, and then repaired. The Torah scrolls are not mass produced like the Bible, it's hand rendered and copied exactly as the book before it. It is never interpreted, just meticulously copied. Before the copy is accepted, it is scrutinized by several Rabbis to be declared Kosher. If a mistake is made while writing the Torah, and that section contains the name of God, it is not repaired, but discarded and buried with dignity.
So to answer your question.....Yes I'm trusting the Torah is correct indeed. That Torah is what all the other writings use as a base to make sure theirs is correct.
Concerning the Muslims, they follow the Quran, and the Quran states that it is not a stand alone book but MUST be used with the books already written. So while the Quran is pure and written just as Mohamed quoted, the Islam religion is screwed up in how they follow it. Because the Muslims don't trust translations and don't want to study Hebrew, they don't study anything but the Quran and they trust that one because they can read it in their own language. Also if they disagree openly concerning the religion Islam, they are put to death.Their country is not like this one where freedom of religion is a right. I have talked with several Muslims and they secretly disagree with the religion Islam, but believe the Quran the way it was meant to be. Most Muslims are very sweet people who do their best to be kind and considerate.
The Christian Bible, while it has many translations is still pretty close to the Torah on scripture. That's why the "OLD testament" matches the Jewish Torah. Most Christians don't realize that the letters and the Gospels are not scripture...However those letters and eyewitness accounts have been carefully copied in their original form. Translations are taken from the reading of the original documents. Then you have folks who really didn't understand the Jewish people who wrote those accounts, and created a separate religion, that is based on the religion that Emperor Constantine had mingled with pagan customs....Which is also why Muslim and Jews don't trust anything Christian.
Therefore if you want to know what those original documents actually say, then you can study and read it yourself. The books are correct but the people who follow them are human and subject to human error. We do our best, we can't do better than that.
But here you stand. You make no effort to learn what the books even say, because you don't believe, which is fine. However then you have the audacity to criticize those who are trying to translate the books so the common people can read them and learn. Then claim that's the reason you don't believe, which isn't the truth. The truth is you don't believe and never based that belief on anything you ever read.
Maybe you were burned out by a religion...many people just can't stomach a certain religion, and actually seem to think that if that religion is off they all must be. I call that...tossing out the baby with the bath water.
For those who were burned by religion...If they ever again hunger for God....learn to eat the meat and throw away the bones.
geridoc
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495881
If they didn't exhibit moral judgement why do they hide their actions. Disregarding morality does not equate ignorance of morality.
This is actually a good question in the context of this thread. For any characteristic there is a range of values (height, hair color, heart rate, etc.). That diversity is what drives evolution. It isn't a stretch of the imagination to think that there is a continuum of morality in the population, with some individuals at each extreme, just as there are extremely tall and extremely short individuals. Psychopaths (lacking morality) may have a survival advantage under certain conditions, so the trait (if there is a genetic component, which may be) would be weakly conserved and consequently would persist in a small number of individuals in a population.
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495881
If they didn't exhibit moral judgement why do they hide their actions. Disregarding morality does not equate ignorance of morality.
This is actually a good question in the context of this thread. For any characteristic there is a range of values (height, hair color, heart rate, etc.). That diversity is what drives evolution. It isn't a stretch of the imagination to think that there is a continuum of morality in the population, with some individuals at each extreme, just as there are extremely tall and extremely short individuals. Psychopaths (lacking morality) may have a survival advantage under certain conditions, so the trait (if there is a genetic component, which may be) would be weakly conserved and consequently would persist in a small number of individuals in a population.
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495881
If they didn't exhibit moral judgement why do they hide their actions. Disregarding morality does not equate ignorance of morality.
Freud suggested that these people never developed a superego - a moral development which tells them that it is bad because it is bad, but because society and the rules of society has told them it is bad. They hide their actions because they don't want to get in trouble from society - not because they have moral judgement.
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495881
If they didn't exhibit moral judgement why do they hide their actions. Disregarding morality does not equate ignorance of morality.
Freud suggested that these people never developed a superego - a moral development which tells them that it is bad because it is bad, but because society and the rules of society has told them it is bad. They hide their actions because they don't want to get in trouble from society - not because they have moral judgement.
pezenfuego
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495881
If they didn't exhibit moral judgement why do they hide their actions. Disregarding morality does not equate ignorance of morality.
Right, they understand the consequences for their actions and hide them. That's self-preservation, not altruism. Most morals boil down to this: don't hurt others/help others in need. I believe this is ingrained in all mentally stable people and no book is needed. If the only thing preventing you from killing another person is the threat of spending eternity in hell, then how can you call yourself a moral person? And if this is your view, then every good deed you do is selfish because it was made for your own personal gain.
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/680#post_3495881
If they didn't exhibit moral judgement why do they hide their actions. Disregarding morality does not equate ignorance of morality.
Right, they understand the consequences for their actions and hide them. That's self-preservation, not altruism. Most morals boil down to this: don't hurt others/help others in need. I believe this is ingrained in all mentally stable people and no book is needed. If the only thing preventing you from killing another person is the threat of spending eternity in hell, then how can you call yourself a moral person? And if this is your view, then every good deed you do is selfish because it was made for your own personal gain.