Experiment

phixer

Active Member
Originally Posted by 30-xtra high
#1, no hospitals around me, #2 wtf is a breathing aviator?, #3, no welding supply stores near me,
Babyb, somebody has already fed fish mysis shrimp and we know what happens, just like someone has already put the guppis in the jar to see what happened, the shrimp die, the guppis.. might die.
pappa d, what are the EXACT regulations to this experiemnet, can the jar be sealed, then can you just drill holes in it?
O2 comes in different levels of purity for different purposes.
The most pure is Aviators Breathing Oxygen (ABO), it contains the lowest content of other gasses because it must be used at high altitudes where concentration and mental alertness can mean the difference between life and death, because of this avaitors must be able to think clearly when flying, if this O2 contained even trace elements of other gasses the expansion ratio of these contaminant gasses and the physiological effects could cause all kinds of problems if breathed. It's also controlled and delivered with a low moisture content to prevent icing at higher altitudes. This is not what you breath when the funny yellow masks drop down. This grade is used primarily for military applications. To maintain purity, special programs and tools are required.
Medical grade is next, there are a few types here but I wont go into it because it would probably bore you. Easy to obtain.
Industrial grade is next, this type of gaseous O2 is generally used in welding applications such as Oxy/Acetelene. Easiest to obtain.
LOX is the liquid type, -297F. 862 to 1 expansion ratio and highly supportive of combustion because of this. Very important to keep away from hydrocarbons such as oil, it will burst into flames and burn violently. LOX is a cryogenic liquid requires special handling and storage.
 

pappa d

Member
ophiura or any other mods, you can close this thread if you would like now. there have been plenty of good responses and i feel that we will only lose the point of the thread if its still open, not that i mind that at all. just wanted to say that i am set now. thank you everyone-
 

reckler

Member
it amazes me that someone will ask for input on something and it is twited by some people for self satisfaction. I think experiments should be done on living creatures. weather it kills them or not. I think we should do more experiments on rats and rabbits. who cares if they die. They multiply by the millions within a years time anyway. Pappa D you have the right idea in what you are doing. guppies are like damsels. I read these boards every day and see people practically throwing away there damsels without a care.
Good luck with your project and I hope this thread stays open so you can keep us posted on the progress..
 

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by reckler
I think experiments should be done on living creatures.
Self satisfaction? Sorry, I'm not seeing that.
If you were going to do potantially lethal experiments on dogs would you go to a Labrador forum to discuss it and expect good answers?
I just think it's in poor taste to go to a fish forum and say it's OK to slowly suffocate a fish in a gallon of water. I just don't think this is the right place.
 

ophiura

Active Member
I don't think people are in this for self satisfaction per se...but I think there is a lot of irony.
The point, of course, is not to suffocate them...the point is to find the balance, and to extrapolate that to a larger scale - to the fine balance of life on the planet.
If he has the proper balance of plants, then he will not suffocate them at all. But if he has an overgrowth of plants, he may be in as much trouble as if he had none at all.
Research research research - others have done this, and their failures and successes are sure to be posted online!!!
IMO, our tanks are very much experiments. Things die, sometimes we learn and frequently we just go buy another animal -which was probably collected from the wild, using possibly destructive methods. These are guppies - living animals yes - but readily available and prolific. I hate to say it, but many of these fish do NOT live in pristine large bodies of water and are rather well adapted for transient conditions in the wild such as low oxygen conditions (BTW, there is likely good research on oxygen production by things like Anacharis, and utilization for guppies...good for the report
). Mother nature isn't always kind, regardless of our human tendency to consider the wild benign and beautiful.
Saturating with oxygen may likely cause a great deal of harm. I don't think we need that, personally. We need a natural balance. What will happen in this tank? Will they die, or just not breed prolifically?
Here an actual experiment - that has every chance of succeeding just fine - is being criticized by those who probably have lost fish or other animals without much study or contemplation...or much benefit to anyone at all. People in a hobby where loads and loads of animals die for no particularly good reason.
I just find it ironic. I won't go so far as to say it is hypocrisy.
Science is not for everyone. But I think the experiment has merit. If people have an issue, call the school board with the complaints. If people are really concerned about the fish, then let's help with thoughts and ideas...rather than deciding it will fail. It sounds like he must do this, and philosophy won't win the day, IMO.
I personally think it was logical and wise to come to a board where people care about, and know about fish. :happyfish
I would suggest, however, you will get more assistance and information on a freshwater planted tank board (google this and you should find one)
 

bang guy

Moderator
I'm not saying I have a problem with experimenting. I just don't think this is the proper place to discuss it. I look at fish as pets here, not experimental animals.
I respect you view and your position as a scientist. I'm a fish lover. I would react the exact same way if someone wanted to see if they could get a Linckia to live in a 10 gallon tank.
 

ophiura

Active Member
I guess it is also not the place for a philosophical discussion (you know I love them
), but I personally see a distinction here between what is certainly achievable (this experiment) and what is not reasonably achievable (a Linckia in a 10g tank) as well as the motivation for trying it.
 

team2jndd

Active Member
get your substrate and water from a sustained fresh water tank (if you know anybody with one or a decent lfs.) this will help the levels some what. Use the plants for o2 and food. I think a gallon is more than enough and with enough research this shouldnt be very difficult. Its kind of unfair to use guppies because they come from poor conditions and could be sick when you get them. Anyways good luck with it.
As for the experimenting. People multiply by the millions as well. Should we test on them? I think that for the sake of science experiments are important but when you go into saying things like who cares if they die they are just guppies there are plenty more, thats where you lose sight of things. I hope that for those people, your life is never in the hands of a stranger. If it is, I hope they dont share your mentality.
 

team2jndd

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
Self satisfaction? Sorry, I'm not seeing that.
If you were going to do potentially lethal experiments on dogs would you go to a Labrador forum to discuss it and expect good answers?
I just think it's in poor taste to go to a fish forum and say it's OK to slowly suffocate a fish in a gallon of water. I just don't think this is the right place.
haha i like that. thats pretty funny. However, I think with the proper setup, they wont sufficate or even suffer for that matter.
 

elfdoctors

Active Member
I have one of the small oval biospheres. When I purchased this it had 5 shrimp and 2 snails (BTW they mentioned that the snails were not essential to the ecosystem). The two snails and 3 of the shrimp died fairly quickly. I was told when I bought it that the shrimp can live for 5 years. I have had my biosphere for about 7 1/2 years and just had one of the shrimp die within the last 2 months - but the last shrimp is still alive! I will probably get another larger biosphere when my last shrimp finally dies of old age.
There is large pocket of gas in my biosphere(~1/3 of the entire volume) which is important to help with gas regulation. However, IMO, there is no need for pure oxygen.
I think this is a good experiment to teach important scientific principles.
 

reckler

Member
ophiura said:
IMO, our tanks are very much experiments. Things die, sometimes we learn and frequently we just go buy another animal -which was probably collected from the wild, using possibly destructive methods. These are guppies - living animals yes - but readily available and prolific. I hate to say it, but many of these fish do NOT live in pristine large bodies of water and are rather well adapted for transient conditions in the wild such as low oxygen conditions (BTW, there is likely good research on oxygen production by things like Anacharis, and utilization for guppies...good for the report
). Mother nature isn't always kind, regardless of our human tendency to consider the wild benign and beautiful.
Ophiura I agree with you 100% on that and I'm not looking for a fight in here or anything like that. I stated my opinion on how I see things. I agree that I am just as guilty as anyone here and I probably shouldn't have made the comment, BUT, I look at our tanks as an experiment. everyone here has done it. I love animals just as much as the next person here does. My dog, birds, and now 2 fish is like my kids to me. I wouldn't intentionally torture them for self gratification. If I thought I could benefit other animal lovers with knowledge of something I would try it. What is one life compaired to the millions you could save. If it weren't for the pioneers of this hobby, we would be doing some major damage to our envronment trying to make it sucessfull.
Bang Guy, If I offened you I appologize, but I voiced my opinion to all animal lovers here not just you. What is to say that if his experiment failed and he fould the cause of the failure. Now you would be able to enjoy the benefits of his experiment, Just like we all here do with our systems.
It is my belief that any caged animal is concidered inhumain, but I have them as well as you have them. So we need to thank the people that went through the process of loosing their animal for our benefit.
That is all I was really trying to say. If I am corect I think I read here the Ophiura works at an aquarium. I would probably say that they loose fish there that are more valuable to us than a guppy. :happyfish
I was forced to sell all my tanks and equipment (except a couple of fish), because I couldn't care for them properly right at this moment due to health problems. I am at a lose it seems without them. I did it to save them rather than keep them and to starve and kill them, So I do love animals also.
Ron
 

bang guy

Moderator
I'm not even close to being offended. I haven't made any judgements, I've only shared my opinion. I've stated that I don't see anything wrong wit hthe experiment I just don't think it will work and I don't think you go to this kind of forum for that type of experiment. Just opinion.
I'm not sure why I got jumped on so bad. I suppose I could lie and say that I think it's going to work perfectly.
 

aztec reef

Active Member
Originally Posted by Pappa D
I'm doing an experiment for an Enviornmental Biology class I'm taking. We are trying to set up a sealed 1 gallon jar with 2 guppies and try to get them to survive the rest of the semester. Can anyone help out with some ideas as for what to put in the jar. It must be sealed and not opened up so no powerhead(the cord wouldnt let the bottle twist
) Pleas give suggestions as to what to use!!!

can i ask what this experiment is suppossed to prove?
whatever the outcome is. Is that how people are suppossed to keep guppies in the future?
 

pappa d

Member
well aztec have you read any of the thread before stating your comments? Anyways, im through with this question now so you dont have to waste your time. the only thing happening is that this is turning into an argument between people because they're fighting about things that werent even a part of the question in the first place. the experiment is kind of like a very small model of biosphere II. its just to try to figure out what components you need for 2 guppies to survive in the long run in a closed enviornment. the project wasnt chosen by me, it was assigned so please no smart ass remarks. thanks to everyone again, mods can you please close the thread in case of any arguing.
 

ophiura

Active Member
Hopefully there is no jumping on people. There are interesting philosophical points here - much more so than many of the other threads that pop up in the aquarium, and it would be nice to discuss.
 

gharner

Member
like everyone has said get a substrate from an existing freshwater aquarium. then fill er up with lots and lots of aquatic plants. (is it cheating if u put some scuds or other inverts in for the guppies to snack on?)
 
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