first time mixing SW
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pegasus
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw#post_3529701
For the major elements like Calcium, Carbonate, and Magnesium, the saturation level is inversely proportional to the temperature. In other words, the lower the temperature the more Calcium you can dissolve into the water. This is also true for gasses like Oxygen and Carbon dioxide.
My RO/DI unit is in my unheated/uncooled basement, as well as my refugium and mixing vat. The temperature is a constant 70F... so my starting temp for mixing is always 70F. I use a cheapo heater that takes several hours to heat the water up to the 76F of my tank, so I throw it into the vat as soon as I start the mixing process. I forgot to mention earlier... before I add any salt, I set a 2400 GPH pump on it's side, firing across the bottom of the vat to make sure nothing clumps up. The vat basically turns into a Jacuzzi, so there's little chance of binding in the critical early stages. It's been about a month since I performed a water change, and tests this morning revealed Ammonia: 0, Nitrites: 0, but Nitrates are pushing 10 ppm. My Gorgs aren't showing any signs of stress, but I'm pretty sure it's time for a change. Started mixing this morning. Here's a short video with a quick shot of the vat in action. Further details are in the description. Please don't laugh at my slow, Southern drawl. I think fast, but talk slow... lol!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wuh5sHM_yNE&feature=youtu.be
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw#post_3529701
For the major elements like Calcium, Carbonate, and Magnesium, the saturation level is inversely proportional to the temperature. In other words, the lower the temperature the more Calcium you can dissolve into the water. This is also true for gasses like Oxygen and Carbon dioxide.
My RO/DI unit is in my unheated/uncooled basement, as well as my refugium and mixing vat. The temperature is a constant 70F... so my starting temp for mixing is always 70F. I use a cheapo heater that takes several hours to heat the water up to the 76F of my tank, so I throw it into the vat as soon as I start the mixing process. I forgot to mention earlier... before I add any salt, I set a 2400 GPH pump on it's side, firing across the bottom of the vat to make sure nothing clumps up. The vat basically turns into a Jacuzzi, so there's little chance of binding in the critical early stages. It's been about a month since I performed a water change, and tests this morning revealed Ammonia: 0, Nitrites: 0, but Nitrates are pushing 10 ppm. My Gorgs aren't showing any signs of stress, but I'm pretty sure it's time for a change. Started mixing this morning. Here's a short video with a quick shot of the vat in action. Further details are in the description. Please don't laugh at my slow, Southern drawl. I think fast, but talk slow... lol!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wuh5sHM_yNE&feature=youtu.be
flower
Well-Known Member
Hi,
Your mixing vat is just fine. There is no harm in heating it up before use to match the display tank. The most important thing is to match the SG in the vat, with the SG in the display tank. Churn it 24 hours unless there is some kind of emergency. 10 nitrates is about normal for needing a good water change. 20 is toxic for most corals, most like a nice round 0 to look their best, unless you have soft coral like Xenia, they like their water a little "dirty" and 40 is toxic to inverts. Be very careful of contaminants, that vat is pretty open to allow anything to go falling into it.
EXAMPLE: I have dogs and worry about the hair...so I cover my container with a cloth tablecloth. That way my container can "breath" and yet not have to worry about hair floating into it.
Your mixing vat is just fine. There is no harm in heating it up before use to match the display tank. The most important thing is to match the SG in the vat, with the SG in the display tank. Churn it 24 hours unless there is some kind of emergency. 10 nitrates is about normal for needing a good water change. 20 is toxic for most corals, most like a nice round 0 to look their best, unless you have soft coral like Xenia, they like their water a little "dirty" and 40 is toxic to inverts. Be very careful of contaminants, that vat is pretty open to allow anything to go falling into it.
EXAMPLE: I have dogs and worry about the hair...so I cover my container with a cloth tablecloth. That way my container can "breath" and yet not have to worry about hair floating into it.
pegasus
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Flower. I did mention that the SG was 1.025. The tank is currently 1.023, and I want to raise it a little bit as I'm slowly but surely adding a few corals. I do <25% water change, so this should be a small enough increase to not affect any of the inhabitants. IF my calculations are correct, this should raise the SG by .0005. It won't have too much effect on Nitrates, as removing 25% of 10 ppm still leaves 7.5 ppm. It's strange, but I can't grow macros in my refugium. The handful in it now is all that's left of two full sandwich bags. I run the light opposite of my DT, but it seems to have worked better lighting it 24/7. Maybe due to the 7W LED lamp?
My xenias do love it... they told me so. LOL! So far, I haven't lost any inverts, except to cannibalism amongst the hermits. Shrimp and crab shed like clockwork.
I don't leave the vat uncovered. The yellow lid under the salt box is normally in use. I moved it for the video. My dogs were in the first video I made, but I didn't like it so I reshot. The main problem I have with contaminants is dirt from ground. Wet cords tend to pick it up, and some inevitably makes it into the vat. Not much, and since I don't completely drain the van during water changes, almost all stays in the vat. I wish I had a germ-free lab to mix in, but the basement is all I've got. I do the best I can with what I've got to work with. This picture shows the amount of debris I ended up with this round, which is well above normal:
My xenias do love it... they told me so. LOL! So far, I haven't lost any inverts, except to cannibalism amongst the hermits. Shrimp and crab shed like clockwork.
I don't leave the vat uncovered. The yellow lid under the salt box is normally in use. I moved it for the video. My dogs were in the first video I made, but I didn't like it so I reshot. The main problem I have with contaminants is dirt from ground. Wet cords tend to pick it up, and some inevitably makes it into the vat. Not much, and since I don't completely drain the van during water changes, almost all stays in the vat. I wish I had a germ-free lab to mix in, but the basement is all I've got. I do the best I can with what I've got to work with. This picture shows the amount of debris I ended up with this round, which is well above normal:
flower
Well-Known Member
Hi,
Don't use your mixing water to raise the SG...make it match exactly. Use saltwater as top off water over a few days to raise the SG. It's slower and gives the critters time to adjust better. Change is not good for SW critters, sudden change is a killer. Your corals by the way will be perfectly happy with the SG at 1.023
Don't use your mixing water to raise the SG...make it match exactly. Use saltwater as top off water over a few days to raise the SG. It's slower and gives the critters time to adjust better. Change is not good for SW critters, sudden change is a killer. Your corals by the way will be perfectly happy with the SG at 1.023
geridoc
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw#post_3529701
For the major elements like Calcium, Carbonate, and Magnesium, the saturation level is inversely proportional to the temperature. In other words, the lower the temperature the more Calcium you can dissolve into the water. This is also true for gasses like Oxygen and Carbon dioxide.
I think we need to define "better"...well, better. True, with increasing temperature less carbon dioxide is in solution, which means less calcium carbonate in solution. Over a range of 10 degrees celsius it comes to about a 25% difference, but the actual calcium concentration at all temperatures in sea water should be below saturation, so temperature shouldn't really matter much. If, by "better, you mean "faster", I'm not convinced about that. So long as the salt mix is added to adequate water (to avoid very high concentrations), there should be no problem at most temperatures in dissolving all of the salts. I start with room temperature water, but use an Eheim pump to circulate the water and by 24 hours the water is up to about the temperature in the tank due to waste heat from the pump.
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw#post_3529701
For the major elements like Calcium, Carbonate, and Magnesium, the saturation level is inversely proportional to the temperature. In other words, the lower the temperature the more Calcium you can dissolve into the water. This is also true for gasses like Oxygen and Carbon dioxide.
I think we need to define "better"...well, better. True, with increasing temperature less carbon dioxide is in solution, which means less calcium carbonate in solution. Over a range of 10 degrees celsius it comes to about a 25% difference, but the actual calcium concentration at all temperatures in sea water should be below saturation, so temperature shouldn't really matter much. If, by "better, you mean "faster", I'm not convinced about that. So long as the salt mix is added to adequate water (to avoid very high concentrations), there should be no problem at most temperatures in dissolving all of the salts. I start with room temperature water, but use an Eheim pump to circulate the water and by 24 hours the water is up to about the temperature in the tank due to waste heat from the pump.
bang guy
Moderator
I think we need to define "better"...well, better. True, with increasing temperature less carbon dioxide is in solution, which means less calcium carbonate in solution. Over a range of 10 degrees celsius it comes to about a 25% difference, but the actual calcium concentration at all temperatures in sea water should be below saturation, so temperature shouldn't really matter much. If, by "better, you mean "faster", I'm not convinced about that. So long as the salt mix is added to adequate water (to avoid very high concentrations), there should be no problem at most temperatures in dissolving all of the salts. I start with room temperature water, but use an Eheim pump to circulate the water and by 24 hours the water is up to about the temperature in the tank due to waste heat from the pump.
Calcium in the typical reef tank is actually significantly higher than saturation levels. No, I don't mean faster dissolving, I mean more complete. ie less precipitate.
I agree that there will never be any issues with the actual salts dissolving.
Calcium in the typical reef tank is actually significantly higher than saturation levels. No, I don't mean faster dissolving, I mean more complete. ie less precipitate.
I agree that there will never be any issues with the actual salts dissolving.
pegasus
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529756
Hi,
Don't use your mixing water to raise the SG...make it match exactly. Use saltwater as top off water over a few days to raise the SG. It's slower and gives the critters time to adjust better. Change is not good for SW critters, sudden change is a killer. Your corals by the way will be perfectly happy with the SG at 1.023
This is true... that would be the optimal way doing it. However, I've lowered my SG by dropping .001 - .002 in the mix (not the tank) to get it to the level it is now without any adverse effects. Drip acclimating new fish and salt creep contributed to the reduction as well, but the majority came from water changes. When I first set up the tank, I was using a hydrometer which showed 1.023, but was actually 1.028 after testing with a refractometer. I dropped it to 1.026 before adding the fish and carpet anemone (came with the used system), which was higher than what they had been used to. I have an ATO, so I find the water change method is the easiest and most effective method for me. The only reason I considered raising the SG is to get the extra trace elements for my ever-so-slowly increasing coral population. I haven't taken the plunge and started dosing, but Reef Crystals should be sufficient until I get to the point where I have to. I'll cross that bridge when I get there...
Since the fresh salt water is introduced at a slow rate, I look at it as a form of drip acclimation... on a grand scale. Corals can survive at 1.023, but for reef corals, this isn't a natural salinity. If I'm not mistaken, it's more like 1.026 SG. Most people keep it lower so they can accommodate a variety of fish with corals. I'm still a little green, so correct me if I'm wrong. Please be gentle...
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529756
Hi,
Don't use your mixing water to raise the SG...make it match exactly. Use saltwater as top off water over a few days to raise the SG. It's slower and gives the critters time to adjust better. Change is not good for SW critters, sudden change is a killer. Your corals by the way will be perfectly happy with the SG at 1.023
This is true... that would be the optimal way doing it. However, I've lowered my SG by dropping .001 - .002 in the mix (not the tank) to get it to the level it is now without any adverse effects. Drip acclimating new fish and salt creep contributed to the reduction as well, but the majority came from water changes. When I first set up the tank, I was using a hydrometer which showed 1.023, but was actually 1.028 after testing with a refractometer. I dropped it to 1.026 before adding the fish and carpet anemone (came with the used system), which was higher than what they had been used to. I have an ATO, so I find the water change method is the easiest and most effective method for me. The only reason I considered raising the SG is to get the extra trace elements for my ever-so-slowly increasing coral population. I haven't taken the plunge and started dosing, but Reef Crystals should be sufficient until I get to the point where I have to. I'll cross that bridge when I get there...
Since the fresh salt water is introduced at a slow rate, I look at it as a form of drip acclimation... on a grand scale. Corals can survive at 1.023, but for reef corals, this isn't a natural salinity. If I'm not mistaken, it's more like 1.026 SG. Most people keep it lower so they can accommodate a variety of fish with corals. I'm still a little green, so correct me if I'm wrong. Please be gentle...
bang guy
Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeriDoc http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529759
I think we need to define "better"...well, better. True, with increasing temperature less carbon dioxide is in solution, which means less calcium carbonate in solution. Over a range of 10 degrees celsius it comes to about a 25% difference, but the actual calcium concentration at all temperatures in sea water should be below saturation, so temperature shouldn't really matter much. If, by "better, you mean "faster", I'm not convinced about that. So long as the salt mix is added to adequate water (to avoid very high concentrations), there should be no problem at most temperatures in dissolving all of the salts. I start with room temperature water, but use an Eheim pump to circulate the water and by 24 hours the water is up to about the temperature in the tank due to waste heat from the pump.
GeriDoc,
If you have information that conflicts with what I'm saying please correct me.
Originally Posted by GeriDoc http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529759
I think we need to define "better"...well, better. True, with increasing temperature less carbon dioxide is in solution, which means less calcium carbonate in solution. Over a range of 10 degrees celsius it comes to about a 25% difference, but the actual calcium concentration at all temperatures in sea water should be below saturation, so temperature shouldn't really matter much. If, by "better, you mean "faster", I'm not convinced about that. So long as the salt mix is added to adequate water (to avoid very high concentrations), there should be no problem at most temperatures in dissolving all of the salts. I start with room temperature water, but use an Eheim pump to circulate the water and by 24 hours the water is up to about the temperature in the tank due to waste heat from the pump.
GeriDoc,
If you have information that conflicts with what I'm saying please correct me.
flower
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529769
From what I have researched reef salinity varies quite a bit from place to place. For example the Gulf is significantly lower than the Red Sea.
I didn't know that...I always kept my SG at 1.024. Because all the books on Aquariums I read, say 1.026 is the SG level of the ocean, and I was told it should never be allowed to go higher then that. Because I no longer use an ATO, I give a little wiggle room for water evaporation. when I had the ATO (reef tank) I kept it at a steady 1.026
I raised it a point sometime when doing water changes with no ill effect, but when it comes to advice, I always try and explain the safest tried and true method that I know of.
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529769
From what I have researched reef salinity varies quite a bit from place to place. For example the Gulf is significantly lower than the Red Sea.
I didn't know that...I always kept my SG at 1.024. Because all the books on Aquariums I read, say 1.026 is the SG level of the ocean, and I was told it should never be allowed to go higher then that. Because I no longer use an ATO, I give a little wiggle room for water evaporation. when I had the ATO (reef tank) I kept it at a steady 1.026
I raised it a point sometime when doing water changes with no ill effect, but when it comes to advice, I always try and explain the safest tried and true method that I know of.
pegasus
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529807
I didn't know that...I always kept my SG at 1.024. Because all the books on Aquariums I read, say 1.026 is the SG level of the ocean, and I was told it should never be allowed to go higher then that. Because I no longer use an ATO, I give a little wiggle room for water evaporation. when I had the ATO (reef tank) I kept it at a steady 1.026
I raised it a point sometime when doing water changes with no ill effect, but when it comes to advice, I always try and explain the safest tried and true method that I know of.
As Bang Guy's showed, you can see there's a pretty wide range in salinity depending on geography. Let's suppose you want to house a Springer's Dottyback with a Pearly Jawfish. The Dottyback comes from the Red Sea, and the Jawfish from the Caribbean. If you were to match the salinity of the Red Sea, the Jawfish won't be too happy... and vice-versa. Lettuce Corals grow in the Red Sea, but not Caribbean Ricordea Floridas. I now have an Orchid Dottyback. Origin... Red Sea. It's basically living in fresh water compared to it's natural environment, so I know I have to raise the salinity. I should have done this prior to my purchase, but you know how it is when something at the LFS catches your eye...
In other words, use the "happy medium" for the inhabitants of our tanks. Aye?
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529807
I didn't know that...I always kept my SG at 1.024. Because all the books on Aquariums I read, say 1.026 is the SG level of the ocean, and I was told it should never be allowed to go higher then that. Because I no longer use an ATO, I give a little wiggle room for water evaporation. when I had the ATO (reef tank) I kept it at a steady 1.026
I raised it a point sometime when doing water changes with no ill effect, but when it comes to advice, I always try and explain the safest tried and true method that I know of.
As Bang Guy's showed, you can see there's a pretty wide range in salinity depending on geography. Let's suppose you want to house a Springer's Dottyback with a Pearly Jawfish. The Dottyback comes from the Red Sea, and the Jawfish from the Caribbean. If you were to match the salinity of the Red Sea, the Jawfish won't be too happy... and vice-versa. Lettuce Corals grow in the Red Sea, but not Caribbean Ricordea Floridas. I now have an Orchid Dottyback. Origin... Red Sea. It's basically living in fresh water compared to it's natural environment, so I know I have to raise the salinity. I should have done this prior to my purchase, but you know how it is when something at the LFS catches your eye...
In other words, use the "happy medium" for the inhabitants of our tanks. Aye?
2quills
Well-Known Member
Seems like calcium carbonate and oxygen would have the most to gain by mixing at cooler temps if one wanted to dissolve those into the water column a little quicker.
Our region of the gulf just off shore is around 36ppm. Corpus Christi Bay is only 22ppm. Doesn't faze the bull sharks though.
Our region of the gulf just off shore is around 36ppm. Corpus Christi Bay is only 22ppm. Doesn't faze the bull sharks though.
pegasus
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529853
Seems like calcium carbonate and oxygen would have the most to gain by mixing at cooler temps if one wanted to dissolve those into the water column a little quicker.
Our region of the gulf just off shore is around 36ppm. Corpus Christi Bay is only 22ppm. Doesn't faze the bull sharks though.
A lot of coastal water has freshwater runoff, thus the lower salinity. The Caribbean Current keeps this "brackish" water close to the shoreline until it rounds the southern tip of FL where merges with the Antilles Current. Nueces River and Oso Creed feed CC Bay. My old stomping grounds... I was born and raised in the "Body of Christ". Bull sharks swim upriver as freshwater doesn't faze them, either.
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529853
Seems like calcium carbonate and oxygen would have the most to gain by mixing at cooler temps if one wanted to dissolve those into the water column a little quicker.
Our region of the gulf just off shore is around 36ppm. Corpus Christi Bay is only 22ppm. Doesn't faze the bull sharks though.
A lot of coastal water has freshwater runoff, thus the lower salinity. The Caribbean Current keeps this "brackish" water close to the shoreline until it rounds the southern tip of FL where merges with the Antilles Current. Nueces River and Oso Creed feed CC Bay. My old stomping grounds... I was born and raised in the "Body of Christ". Bull sharks swim upriver as freshwater doesn't faze them, either.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pegasus http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529868
A lot of coastal water has freshwater runoff, thus the lower salinity. The Caribbean Current keeps this "brackish" water close to the shoreline until it rounds the southern tip of FL where merges with the Antilles Current. Nueces River and Oso Creed feed CC Bay. My old stomping grounds... I was born and raised in the "Body of Christ". Bull sharks swim upriver as freshwater doesn't faze them, either.
Small world. It is interesting to see the diversity of marine fish between the bay and the gulf (just off shore). Much better fishing out there (more variety) vs the fewer brave souls that venture through the channel into waters less dense. Lends some credence to the idea of creating marine biotopes that emulate a specific geographical area. Unless, that is you can find specimens from other areas that come from a similar environment I suppose. It's all about finding that balance.
Originally Posted by Pegasus http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529868
A lot of coastal water has freshwater runoff, thus the lower salinity. The Caribbean Current keeps this "brackish" water close to the shoreline until it rounds the southern tip of FL where merges with the Antilles Current. Nueces River and Oso Creed feed CC Bay. My old stomping grounds... I was born and raised in the "Body of Christ". Bull sharks swim upriver as freshwater doesn't faze them, either.
Small world. It is interesting to see the diversity of marine fish between the bay and the gulf (just off shore). Much better fishing out there (more variety) vs the fewer brave souls that venture through the channel into waters less dense. Lends some credence to the idea of creating marine biotopes that emulate a specific geographical area. Unless, that is you can find specimens from other areas that come from a similar environment I suppose. It's all about finding that balance.
pegasus
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529873
Small world. It is interesting to see the diversity of marine fish between the bay and the gulf (just off shore). Much better fishing out there (more variety) vs the fewer brave souls that venture through the channel into waters less dense. Lends some credence to the idea of creating marine biotopes that emulate a specific geographical area. Unless, that is you can find specimens from other areas that come from a similar environment I suppose. It's all about finding that balance.
Isn't it? Didn't fish the bay much, but loved casting off Padre. Never got the chance to go out beyond neck deep as I was young and we were nearly poor. I knew there had to be better fishing out there. I always caught more the farther I cast. Wow... that place has changed since the early 70's. Bob Hall Pier used to be the only thing out there until they started building houses, and eventually condos. We could drive for miles and miles and see nothing but sand and water. I think they call what happened to Padre Island "progress".
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529873
Small world. It is interesting to see the diversity of marine fish between the bay and the gulf (just off shore). Much better fishing out there (more variety) vs the fewer brave souls that venture through the channel into waters less dense. Lends some credence to the idea of creating marine biotopes that emulate a specific geographical area. Unless, that is you can find specimens from other areas that come from a similar environment I suppose. It's all about finding that balance.
Isn't it? Didn't fish the bay much, but loved casting off Padre. Never got the chance to go out beyond neck deep as I was young and we were nearly poor. I knew there had to be better fishing out there. I always caught more the farther I cast. Wow... that place has changed since the early 70's. Bob Hall Pier used to be the only thing out there until they started building houses, and eventually condos. We could drive for miles and miles and see nothing but sand and water. I think they call what happened to Padre Island "progress".
2quills
Well-Known Member
Isn't it? Didn't fish the bay much, but loved casting off Padre. Never got the chance to go out beyond neck deep as I was young and we were nearly poor. I knew there had to be better fishing out there. I always caught more the farther I cast. Wow... that place has changed since the early 70's. Bob Hall Pier used to be the only thing out there until they started building houses, and eventually condos. We could drive for miles and miles and see nothing but sand and water. I think they call what happened to Padre Island "progress".
That's for sure. There isnt enough rental space to go around for everyone right now in the area. Somebody just caught an 11 ft tiger shark out there weekend before last. Right out in the surf between Packery and the pier. Mmmmm, shark steak...gotta love it.
That's for sure. There isnt enough rental space to go around for everyone right now in the area. Somebody just caught an 11 ft tiger shark out there weekend before last. Right out in the surf between Packery and the pier. Mmmmm, shark steak...gotta love it.
geridoc
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529804
GeriDoc,
If you have information that conflicts with what I'm saying please correct me.
Bang: You are right on the chemistry, I just don't think that, given the nature of the systems we are dealing with, the temperature of the water at the time matters much in terms of the solubilities of the ions involved.
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/396162/first-time-mixing-sw/20#post_3529804
GeriDoc,
If you have information that conflicts with what I'm saying please correct me.
Bang: You are right on the chemistry, I just don't think that, given the nature of the systems we are dealing with, the temperature of the water at the time matters much in terms of the solubilities of the ions involved.