Gay Marriage, Abortion and other moral issue?

seasalt101

Active Member
Originally Posted by team2jndd
lol no your reply was fine. I agree with you that you cant argue because it is a waste of time. I am just saying that I am sick of these threads because they serve no purpose. I think it is sad that some people come here to talk politics. Make some friends

ok 1st i talk politics with friends and family and fellow board members, wasn't it you about a week back was wondering about the music you will listen too when you are older? well us that talk politics see something wrong and we argue and try to get the other person to see our side as they do the same to there opposition we care about our country and you young people should be more concerned about the direction of this country versus fall out boys new song and wondering if madonna will be popular in 20 years...tobin
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by windmill
It's so tempting to type one little sentence and get this thread locked......
That's a slippery slope Windmill... saying something to get a post locked goes against you, not the OP.
So far there is nothing wrong with this thread. If you don't like it move on. Frankly I personally would rather read through a well thought out post like this over the 15 pages of "let's tell jokes", "true or false" etc....
Like I said, if these kind of posts bother you move on. No reason to post that you don't like a thread. If you have an issue with a topic use the report feature.
 

team2jndd

Active Member
haha sorry tobin. I forgot that your feelings being expressed on this board would ultimately decide the future direction of this country. I was making small talk with the music thing. Its called a conversation. People who NEED to debate all the time are the ones that get annoying and get locked threads.
 

seasalt101

Active Member
Originally Posted by team2jndd
haha sorry tobin. I forgot that your feelings being expressed on this board would ultimately decide the future direction of this country. I was making small talk with the music thing. Its called a conversation. People who NEED to debate all the time are the ones that get annoying and get locked threads.
and if you do not discuss this stuff there are a lot of uninformed people there is a guy on this site that has high political aspirations and if achieved he could do something and what is discussed here in the political threads a lot of us enjoy, farmers talk about crops fisherman talk about the one that got away kids talk about actors movies and music but we do not condone that, why you so angry that some of us like to talk politics?...tobin
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by windmill
It's so tempting to type one little sentence and get this thread locked.....
You get too much a kick out of this controversial stuff Tang. Berating other's opinions and perspectives because they're not as informed or ethically bound as you gets old. You seem to actually enjoy argueing with anyone who disagrees with your post topic.
I look forward to seeing this thread killed.
Go ahead, it just makes you look bad and childish. The majority of those that respond to these types of threads are informed and enjoy them. Enjoy arguing? No...I enjoy debate in a civil manner. See I discuss politics with many people, unfortunately most of my friends are like minded and don't reflect the viewpoints of the country as a whole. So the internet (namely this forum) is a great place to learn and understand why people view things the way they do and why.
See the problem with this country and the reason we have some screwed up things going on is many people like yourself windmill and Team2 find these discussions as lame and not worthwhile. The majority look at the internet as entertainment or games....and forget it is also a tool for education. As the moderator has stated for this forum, if you don't like the topic, don't click on it, then proceed to read it, and yet respond to it. If it is a waste of your time...Why waste more of your time responding....that to me is a waste.
I apologize if this seems rude, it is not my intention.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by aedeos
As someone who plans on running for high office someday, I've given a lot of thought to the so-called "social issues" that parties seem to rely on for their platforms. There's many reasons for this, and I'll try breaking a few down to help clear up why such contentious topics are so readily discussed in politics.
First, their contention in its self: A topic such as abortion or capital punishment often has a very easy line to separate sides. People are very easy to paint as either pro or con on these issues, which makes it easy for a party to take a side. If we look at abortion for instance, you'll notice that parties have been taking sides for years on the issue, though once elected, nothing gets done rarely. Even Roe v Wade had little to do with the current government in power, and far more to do with the Supreme Court calling the case up and laying down a monumental decision. If you look at gay marriage and our current presidency, you'll see that Bush has often used a constitutional amendment as a strong basis for his stump speeches, but once in office he's done very little. The amendment makes a great running ticket, but it's somewhat illusory to assume that'd pass the state votes needed and get by the supreme court's decision as well. With a two party system, it makes it easy for a party to grab one side of a contentious issue to oppose the other, which brings me to my second point.
The two party system: Our current political system claims to be open to anyone who wishes to run, but I think most will agree that that's illusory at best. Just looking at number of democrats and republicans compared to independents and third parties in the national positions shows that this is a very two-party centric country. First past the post (50%+1 vote) means that vague, over-simplified voting issues are the easiest to get elected on. When there's more options to vote for, more viewpoints can be put forth and these topics suddenly become more than pro-choice/pro-life. Multiple party systems open up dialog.
Third, public apathy: It's no secret that America doesn't vote. We have lower turnout than most first-world countries. I doubt I'm taking a gamble when I say few if anyone on this board have read their local statutes or a tax law (trust me, there's a reason; they're lame). When it comes to abortion, it's very black and white. Same with gay marriage. But military spending? Public financing? If you listened to a Presidential candidate stand up and ramble on about percentage spending on education or the latest budget summary for the military, I doubt you'd be deeply interested. These make great vague talking points for state of the union addresses, but overall have little merit unless we get into the nitty-gritty. Most of America doesn't seem to want to hear that.
The bottom line is: America wants these issues. As much as we hate them individually, we love them as a collective. It makes election choices easy. When a candidate aligns with our basic beliefs, it makes it easier to assume that they'll also align with our more technical beliefs. Either that, or people will honestly only vote on those issues and not go to the polls if their isn't a candidate who aligns their way (this will be interesting for '08 if the Rep. nominate a pro-choice candidate like McCain or Guilliani).
Hope that helps. Any questions or disagreeables, direct them this way and I'll be happy to talk.

You make very good points...the majority of the country doesn't care enough...maybe 25% at the most I would have to say are truly informed and pay close attention. Which is sad....However from the Republican side of things with the phrase "less government" you would think they would NOT want to legislature these issue as they make government bigger....I undertand and see where you are coming from though, I often forget most of the country cares less about politics and what is going on in their country...
 

pontius

Active Member
why is this such a "controversial" topic as so many seem to be pointing out? the original question wasn't whether or not you think abortion or gay marriage is right or wrong. the question was do you think they are so important that they should play a determining factor in who does or doesn't get elected to office in 08.
 

dogstar

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
Are these really subjects a presidential candidate or congressional member should have to run under.
Just my thoughts
They dont '' have to '', they choose to.
Just as some people '' still '' choose to vote for them because of it...It works...or it has up 'till resently...We'll see if it will work again because many are still trying it.
 

aztec reef

Active Member
I'm just tagging along, but i just have to say ..I would never agree with abortions EVER!! but i Don't think it should be a major play when electing for office .....oh, and Darthtang...man i have to give it to you
i like the stuff you bring up to the table.
keep up with all this good threads
 

petjunkie

Active Member
Wow, Pontius your post totally covers my beliefs on those two subjects, I used to have a bumper sticker that said "Against abortions? Don't have one." It seems pretty simple to me that adults should be allowed to make there own decisions in life. But naturally every time there is a scandal everyone yells gay marriage as if all the gay couples living together just like a common law marriage for years and years are going to attack the rest of the world. Marriage is just a piece of paper after all. It would be nice if politicians would just say what they believe and let people deal with it as there is no way to keep everyone happy anyways.
 

jovial

Member
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle
Adam and Eve, Adam and Steve who really cares but I dont see why there needs to be a parade about it each year.
Dont mean to change the topic, but am confused about this:
If the amnesty bill is passed wouldnt this require all people here illeagally to be paid the minimum wage? What kind of economic impacts would this have on the companies that hire them? Would they still employ them?
 

1journeyman

Active Member
The abortion issue, imho, is far more complicated then we're making it out to be.
To me it is a political issue. As a Biology Major I can tell you I don't know when "life" begins. As such I don't believe abortion is about "choice". That's liberal spin to me.
I want to know how important life is to a politician...
 

pontius

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I want to know how important life is to a politician...
well, Bush would gladly overturn Roe v Wade if he could. but he was mighty quick to send 3500 (and still counting) US troops to their deaths with faulty intelligence, poor planning, and oftentimes inadequate equipment. so tell me, how much does George Bush value life?
 

aedeos

Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
You make very good points...the majority of the country doesn't care enough...maybe 25% at the most I would have to say are truly informed and pay close attention. Which is sad....However from the Republican side of things with the phrase "less government" you would think they would NOT want to legislature these issue as they make government bigger....I undertand and see where you are coming from though, I often forget most of the country cares less about politics and what is going on in their country...
Well, it all depends on how you define republican. The republican party of a century ago is far different from the republican party 50 years ago, is far different from the party a decade ago, and same for the party today. While it may have been true that during Reagan's tenure, smaller government was key, we now see a neo-conservative movement for strict regulation on "morality" and the highest spending (taking into account inflation) of any government. Speaking with the conservative youth, you'll find them leaning much more towards a libertarian point of perspective.
 

seasalt101

Active Member
Originally Posted by Pontius
well, Bush would gladly overturn Roe v Wade if he could. but he was mighty quick to send 3500 (and still counting) US troops to their deaths with faulty intelligence, poor planning, and oftentimes inadequate equipment. so tell me, how much does George Bush value life?
and at the time he had the support of congress senate and public and the soldiers over there for the most part know they are doin good things over there, and bush did stae at the beginning this will take many years to do, nobody seems to remember that...tobin
 

pontius

Active Member
Originally Posted by seasalt101
and at the time he had the support of congress senate and public and the soldiers over there for the most part know they are doin good things over there, and bush did stae at the beginning this will take many years to do, nobody seems to remember that...tobin
the difference though, is that congress, senate, public, and many of the soldiers have since realized the mistake of rushing to this war (I'm talking about the one in Iraq, not Afghanistan), Bush is just too bullheaded to admit that he was wrong. and also, they were fed lies that the Bush administration most likely KNEW were lies and bad information. also, Bush stated the "war on terror" would take years, he never said that about the "war in Iraq". in fact, Saddam was caught fairly soon into the war and Bush's people came out and declared "MIssion Accomplished!!". remember that? well, that was 3 or 4 years ago.
bottom line, Iraq is now a theater in the war on terror ONLY because BUsh made is that way. Saddam was NEVER a major threat to us, only a threat to oil companies. and the upside of Saddam is that he kept Iran (a very real threat to us) in line.
 

seasalt101

Active Member
Originally Posted by Pontius
the difference though, is that congress, senate, public, and many of the soldiers have since realized the mistake of rushing to this war (I'm talking about the one in Iraq, not Afghanistan), Bush is just too bullheaded to admit that he was wrong. and also, they were fed lies that the Bush administration most likely KNEW were lies and bad information. also, Bush stated the "war on terror" would take years, he never said that about the "war in Iraq". in fact, Saddam was caught fairly soon into the war and Bush's people came out and declared "MIssion Accomplished!!". remember that? well, that was 3 or 4 years ago.
bottom line, Iraq is now a theater in the war on terror ONLY because BUsh made is that way. Saddam was NEVER a major threat to us, only a threat to oil companies. and the upside of Saddam is that he kept Iran (a very real threat to us) in line.
i will agree with you on some points here, but you have to admit al quada is still in iraq, but we were rushed into it, without a good get in and out strategy
and know that the troops are there in force the tide is turning again, bush did jump the gun with the mission accomplished thing though...tobin
 

pontius

Active Member
Originally Posted by seasalt101
i will agree with you on some points here, but you have to admit al quada is still in iraq, but we were rushed into it, without a good get in and out strategy
and know that the troops are there in force the tide is turning again, bush did jump the gun with the mission accomplished thing though...tobin
yes, Al Qaeda is there NOW. and what we've allowed Bush to do there has been a huge recruiting tool for Al Qaeda. and when we leave, Iran will most likely take over, no matter how it ends. Al Qaeda was NOT in Iraq before this war started. ever read the 9/11 Comission Report? Saddam wanted nothing to do with Bin Laden because 1. he didn't trust him, 2. he didn't take him seriously, and 3. he knew the US would deal with him if he dealt with Bin Laden. Bin Laden attacking the US is the worst thing that ever happened to Saddam because it gave Bush carte blanche in dealing with Iraq. I'm not saying Saddam was a nice guy. he tortured and killed his own people. BUT, there is not one shred of proof that he ever supported terrorism against the US or any proof that he ever supported Al Qaeda.
 

reefreak29

Active Member
Darthtang AW said:
Are these really subjects a presidential candidate or congressional member should have to run under. I hear lots of talk about the erosion of values and the need to legislature laws to keep values intact
if government doesnt inforce moral value who will? people would just do what they want or what makes them feel good and ultimatly destroy this country.
 

aedeos

Member
reefreak29 said:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
Are these really subjects a presidential candidate or congressional member should have to run under. I hear lots of talk about the erosion of values and the need to legislature laws to keep values intact
if government doesnt inforce moral value who will? people would just do what they want or what makes them feel good and ultimatly destroy this country.
That's quite the machiavellian attitude, but I don't think it holds true. If you look at instances where people find large amounts of money on the sidewalk, save random individuals at no benefit to their self, or donate anonymously to charity, you'll see that people police themselves for the sake of morality, regardless of government interference. Many people will argue that religion plays a large role in dictating morality, while many more who aren't religious will argue that their care for their fellow man will lead them to do the same. I think there are many exceptions to this, but I have a ton of theories on why that is. If you wish, ask and I'll go into them. However, when people are well off and happy, they tend to take advantage of their situation and pass off their benefits to others.
 
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