Gay Marriage, Abortion and other moral issue?

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Pontius
I never said there was no contact between them...
Actually, in post #38 you said "Al Qaeda was NOT in Iraq before this war started...." that is what I was correcting. They were in Iraq. How many, how long, etc. is not known, but we know that high ranking Al Qeada officials were in Iraq. We also began killing them very early on in the war.
Originally Posted by Pontius
all Bush did was sell lies. I didn't say anything about 1998, and I never once stated that I thought Clinton was a great president either. but we didn't put troops on the ground in 1998, we did under Bush. please, tell me the situation is better now than it was in Iraq before we first went in.
Pontius, you and others fall onto the Bush lied thing without accepting the fact that:A. He came into office being told Al Qeada had WMD's and B: Every major intel agency in the world said he had WMDs.
Things are infinitely better today than on Sept. 11th, 2001. That I can assure you. Al Qaeda has stated that Iraq is the major battlefield for them. Care to point out where it would be otherwise? Afghanistan, Pakistan (and since they have nukes wouldn't that be lovely...) New York, etc... 3500 military deaths and thousands more injured is horrific and tragic, but in the global sense that our military in 5 years has liberated 30 million people in 2 countries, one of which stopped the Red Army cold in the 80's.... from that perspective the military has had stunning successes the past 5 years. Should it have been handled differently? Sure. Name one military campaign that did go perfectly and can't be improved upon though.
Originally Posted by Pontius
... Hans Blix, who was the guy who was actually IN Iraq, said that while Saddam was breaking resolutions, there was actually no evidence that he was manufacturing weapons of mass destruction.
Hans wasn't allowed to inspect the spots suspected... kind of silly for him to say "no evidence" when he didn't get to open many closets.
I've made the case before: Saddam invaded Kuwait. Saddam got pounded. Saddam surrendered. Saddam violated peace treaty and shot at our pilots. Ergo Saddam declared war on us....

 

[dskrezyna]

Originally Posted by Pontius
they are not attempting to govern themselves. the police aren't even doing anything because many don't even show up to work, many get murdered, and many working for the other side are implanted in the police force. this is a cluster****ed mess. Bush got us in there, started a civil war between the two factions, and has gotten 3500 US troops killed. and for what, "Iraqi Freedom"? that is a complete joke. meanwhile, we are attempting to fight a war with rules against someone who follows no rules whatsoever. this war is a joke, Bush is a joke. stop kidding yourself. and my children and grandchildren will be paying this war decades from now started by a man with a 28% approval rating. that means barely 1 in 4 people actually think he's doing a good job. and he just has free reign to run this country into the ground. so generations from now, the US citizens will STILL be paying for this war and the only thing that's been accomplished is that MORE muslims hate us now than they did to begin with.

Good job.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by lion_crazz
Max, I totally agree with the points you argued. How could something which is based in LOVE be wrong? If you truly love your partner and live a Christian lifestyle, then there is no way that God could deny you.
And as much as I hate abortion, I think it is a necessary evil. A woman has the right to do with her body as she pleases. Whether that action is right or not is a totally different story. However, she is the one who will have to face God, not you or me. She will have to face the consequences of her actions. The government does not have any standing to tell her what she can and cannot do to her body as long as it is safe to herself and others. It is her body and her responsibly to choose what happens with her body. Obviously, the government has the right to tell you that you cannot do drugs or drive under the influence of alcohol because that puts you and other people in jeopardy. However, abortion, done in a medically safe environment, does not.....
That sums up well the "other" side of both of my positions.
IF you believe in "Christianity" then marriage is defined. And the other side of the abortion argument would say abortion does in fact harm (read kill) another human life.
I'm against any alteration of "marriage". Now, if you want to grant equal rights to other "partnerships" that's a different discussion.
Will either of these issues effect the way I vote in 2008? Doesn't look like it as I feel the best chance of stopping Hillary is with another New Yorker...

 

[1journeyman]

PS:
While we're discussing poll numbers, let's not forget the newly elected Congress has worse approval numbers then the President. (According to Gallup poll in May of 2007)

 

[seasalt101]

1jorney you are a good debater your facts are always crisp sounding whereas mine come off like two day old soup, i'm trying to learn to get them across better though...tobin

 

[maxalmon]

Originally Posted by dskrezyna

Good job.
I agree, perfect explanation.

 

[aedeos]

Originally Posted by aedeos
thats quite the optamistic attitude , the majority of people that find money on the street keep it . if u legalize abortion and gay marage sin will run rampid hey lets legalixze drugs whyll were at it im sure knowone will actually use them
Actually, I highly advocate complete and total drug legalization. I guess with your model of sin, then you feel that outlawing gay marriage and abortions is the only way to stop them. My only argument is that outlawing anti-moral activities rare ever puts a stop to them, and research shows it increases use at times.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Actually, in post #38 you said "Al Qaeda was NOT in Iraq before this war started...." that is what I was correcting. They were in Iraq. How many, how long, etc. is not known, but we know that high ranking Al Qeada officials were in Iraq. We also began killing them very early on in the war.
Pontius, you and others fall onto the Bush lied thing without accepting the fact that:A. He came into office being told Al Qeada had WMD's and B: Every major intel agency in the world said he had WMDs.
Things are infinitely better today than on Sept. 11th, 2001. That I can assure you. Al Qaeda has stated that Iraq is the major battlefield for them. Care to point out where it would be otherwise? Afghanistan, Pakistan (and since they have nukes wouldn't that be lovely...) New York, etc... 3500 military deaths and thousands more injured is horrific and tragic, but in the global sense that our military in 5 years has liberated 30 million people in 2 countries, one of which stopped the Red Army cold in the 80's.... from that perspective the military has had stunning successes the past 5 years. Should it have been handled differently? Sure. Name one military campaign that did go perfectly and can't be improved upon though.
Hans wasn't allowed to inspect the spots suspected... kind of silly for him to say "no evidence" when he didn't get to open many closets.
I've made the case before: Saddam invaded Kuwait. Saddam got pounded. Saddam surrendered. Saddam violated peace treaty and shot at our pilots. Ergo Saddam declared war on us....
response to paragraph 1: Bin Laden reached out and attempted to open a line of communication with Saddam Hussein. Hussein was not interested. no, there were not Al Qaeda terrorists being protected by Hussein in Iraq before this war was started. that's an out and out lie. you're talking about a decade's old correspondence between Bin Laden and Hussein and Hussein showed no interest in working with Bin Laden. this is all spelled out in perfect english by the non-partisan 9/11 comission. now if you've got some kind of proof to the contrary, come out with it.
response to paragraph 2: he came into office being told that Al Qaeda had WMDs? huh? what? that sounds like something you made up off the top of your head. I have never heard the first mention that Al Qaeda had WMDs or that Bush was ever told such a thing. they would LIKE to have WMDs, but there is no proof they ever had them. ever major intel in the world said WHO had WMDs? Bin Laden or Saddam? I assume you're talking about Saddam, and no, you are incorrect, every major intel said no such thing. Bush's and the UK's said that.
response to paragraph 3: lmao. we've "liberated" 30 million people??? I guess if you consider "leaving them with no option but to stay and be murdered or to flee to bordering countries" liberation, then yeah, we've liberated a lot of people. also, what makes you think it's safer now than it was before 2001? you think there are LESS people who hate the US now than there were then? how do you know they are not planning another attack. hell, how do you know we don't already have thousands of terrorists in the country since Bush outright refuses to secure the southern border.
paragraph 4: yes, Blix was turned away by Saddam. but there were other times he DID inspect. the times he was turned away was not the only times he ever set foot in Iraq.
paragraph 5: Saddam violated a UN resolutions, not US resolutions. so it should be the UN's job to form a coalition to respond, not for the US and UK to go alone. ergo, your point is moot.

 

[mr. guitar]

Ok here's what I think. Since our Religion was founded on Religion I think these two things should be in the Constitution saying you can't do it.
Gay Marriage?! NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! God doesn't want gays. Gays are going to Hell anyway. (That's in the Bible...Not making it up) I have no clue what our country has gotten itself into with all these stupid gay rights things. If I could I'd put at stop to the Gay Marriage thing immediately. It's not what God wanted anyway...So why have it?
Please don't think I hate gays or anything. I wish they could all go to church..change their ways and go to Heaven. I wish everyone went to Heaven but it doesn't work that way. The path is narrow.
Off topic a little but did y'all know that there is a church for only gays in Canada? That's insane!!!!! They teach the Bible differently and only gays can go in. That so called church is doomed for the firey place below.
Abortion...I'm strongly against it. God made a woman to have a baby and not destroy life. God made that little child in the woman's womb. Destroying the baby is like saying, "God I don't care about you anymore. I'm going against your will of having a child."
Do you know what they do in abortions? They break their bones. They crack their skull. Poor little soul.

 

[seasalt101]

paragraph 5: Saddam violated a UN resolutions, not US resolutions. so it should be the UN's job to form a coalition to respond, not for the US and UK to go alone. ergo, your point is moot.
there are dutch there there are/was spaniards there, canadiens, and they surrendered to the us not the un...tobin

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Pontius
response to paragraph 2: I assume you're talking about Saddam, and no, you are incorrect, every major intel said no such thing. Bush's and the UK's said that.
Wrong, from the New York Times front page November 3, 2006
"Among the dozens of documents in English were copies of Iraqi reports written in the 1990’s and in 2002 for United Nations inspectors in charge of making sure Iraq abandoned its unconventional arms programs after the Persian Gulf war. Experts say that at the time, Mr. Hussein’s scientists were on the verge of building an atom bomb, as little as a year away."
This is regarding a stash of documents that were found after invasion. Take note this is what was given to the U.N.officials by U.N. inspectors... an open statement clearly stating Hussein was one year away from a nuclear device.....

 

[1journeyman]

1. I didn't say protected, I said present.
2. Clinton said in 1998 that he bombed "Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological facilities" and "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program..." Pelosi said in 98 "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process..." Clinton's Sec. of State said in 98 "Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies..." How many more quotes would you like? I try not to pull things off the top of my head...
Here is an incomplete list of the nations who said Iraq had WMD's: Britain, France, Germany, Israel, Russian, Egyptian, Saudi Arabia, China.... So, actually I believe I am correct and you are mistaken.
3. The people are free. Many, many Iraqis are enjoying freedom for the first time. Talk to people over there, look into it yourself. As for Afghanistan... talk to an Afghan woman about life pre=post Taliban then tell me she isn't "free".
I think it's safer now because they haven't attacked us again... fairly easy to measure in my book. As for the recruiting issue; there is a crowd that hates us. No matter what we do. Whether or not we are killing them won't stop them from killing us. The "recruitment" issue is a farce. They were recruiting just fine before we attacked Iraq (or should I say Iraq attacked us and we responded)
4. Blix never inspected every site. If I let you come into my house and search all but one closet could you say I didn't have any guns in my house?
5. Pontius, you're an intelligent person. You know how the UN works... France Germany and Russia all had a lot of money to lose if Baghdad fell.
Also, the US did not go "alone" into Iraq. Nor was it just Britain and the US. I believe there have been troops from close to 30 countries in Iraq...
Once again, I really do try to check my facts before I post them. No one is served by any of us posting falsehoods, half-truths or rhetoric to get a point across.

 

[darthtang aw]

From the mouth of Vladamir Putin "I can confirm that after the events of September 11, 2001, and up to the military operation in Iraq, Russian special services and Russian intelligence several times received...information that official organs of Saddam's regime were preparing terrorist acts on the territory of the United States and beyond its borders, at U.S. military and civilian locations."
France-“Powell presented the Security Council with satellite images, intercepted phone conversations and other evidence which he said supported Washington’s claim that Baghdad was hiding mass destruction weapons. French Defense Ministry spokesman Jean-Francois Bureau said Thursday that French intelligence backed up parts of Powell’s presentation. ‘There are a certain number of questions evoked by Mr. Powell that we had information on.’” (Christine Ollivier, “Chirac Says U.S. Evidence On Iraq Does Not Change French Position,” The Associated Press, 2/6/03)
Germany-- German Intelligence Services Predicted That Iraq Would Have Nuclear Bomb Capabilities Within Three Years. “A report prepared by the German intelligence services in December 2000, based on defectors’ reports, satellite imagery, and aerial surveillance, predicted that Iraq will have three nuclear bombs by 2005. But that may be too optimistic. Before the Gulf War no one had a clue how far advanced Saddam’s nuclear weapons program was.” (Robert Kagan And William Kristol, “What To Do About Iraq,” The Weekly Standard, 1/21/02)
Regarding lying about intelligence---“The Committee Did Not Find Any Evidence That Administration Officials Attempted To Coerce, Influence Or Pressure Analysts To Change Their Judgments Related To Iraq’s Weapons Of Mass Destruction Capabilities.” (“The Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Intelligence Assessments On Iraq”, Select Committee On Intelligence, U.S. Senate, 7/7/04)
* “The Committee Found No Evidence That The IC’s [Intelligence Community] Mischaracterization Or Exaggeration Of The Intelligence On Iraq’s Weapons Of Mass Destruction (WMD) Capabilities Was The Result Of Political Pressure.” (“The Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Intelligence Assessments On Iraq”, Select Committee On Intelligence, U.S. Senate, 7/7/04)
The Clinton Justice Department Found Al-Qaeda Reached An Agreement With Iraq:
“The Clinton Justice Department Alleged In A 1998 Indictment Against Bin Laden That ‘Al-Qaida Reached An Understanding With The Government Of Iraq That Al-Qaida Would Not Work Against That Government And That On Particular Projects, Specifically Including Weapons Development, Al-Qaida Would Work Cooperatively With The Government Of Iraq.’” (“La La Pelosi,” Investor’s Business Daily, 7/5/05)

 

[jovial]

So whats to stop someone from having 17 wives and calling it marriage, or someone from marrying a heard of wildabeasts or a tree. Im a Christian and personally believe it is wrong but if you want to be gay, great just dont ask me to accept it, tolerance is one thing acceptance is another.
As for abortion, I view it for what it does, it stops an innocent life through violent means. It dosent prevent a plant from growing it prevents a human being from living. Id have a hard time if I found out my spouse had my little son or daughter sliced into peices and sucked through a vacum cleaner. Call it for what it really is ever seen the photos of a baby killed during an abortion?

 

[jennythebugg]

Originally Posted by Mr. Guitar
Ok here's what I think. Since our Religion was founded on Religion I think these two things should be in the Constitution saying you can't do it.
Gay Marriage?! NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! God doesn't want gays. Gays are going to Hell anyway. (That's in the Bible...Not making it up) I have no clue what our country has gotten itself into with all these stupid gay rights things. If I could I'd put at stop to the Gay Marriage thing immediately. It's not what God wanted anyway...So why have it?
.
o.k guitarman I am a christian I am an American, I am also bisexual does this mean I am going to go to hell even though as young as 6 years old i can remember thinking about women along with men....I don't understand how you can say that God would make us this way just to condemn us to hell...does this mean that mentally retarded people that can't comprehend the concept of God are going to hell to ? I love the lord and I live a christian life , so how is it I'm gonna burn in hell for being bi and jeffrey dahmer is going to go to heaven because he repented ? I pray , I attend my fathers church ( which apparently holds more of the lords love than whatever church you are attending) I tithe I obey the laws of the land, but I'm a sinner because of something that a man disagreed with centuries ago God did not write the bible MAN did ( and yes it was a man MAN wrote the bible and MAN is apt to make his opinion law ...hence this thread) and Jesus never said gay was wrong read your Bible is it written in red NO what is written in red though is LOVE ONE ANOTHER...thank you
p.s Matt.22v.37-40 Love the lord your god with all your heart all your soul all your mind. this is the first and most important command and the second command is like the first love your neighbor as you love yourself. all the law and writings of the prophets depend on these two commands..... and thats from jesus

 

[pontius]

without going any further off topic and starting the long debate, it ALL boils down to this.....3000 Americans died on 9/11. Bush used this as his primary grounds for attacking Saddam. no one involved in 9/11 were in Iraq or had the backing of Saddam. so the 2 of the 3 main culprits of 9/11 remain at large, while our military is spread too thin in Iraq.
you're right that Germany, France, and Russia had a lot to lose with the fall of Iraq. they also have a lot to gain by the fall of the US, and we are not as strong now as were were then.
you can't measure how safe this country is because no other attacks have happened since 2001. you have to look at potential holes....like the borders that Bush refuses to close. like the military and the national guard being spread thin across the world.
most people who were pro-war in 2002 have now admitted they were wrong. Bush knew all along and refuses to admit it. now of course, you could JUSTIFY the war. but in light of 9/11, our military needed to be elsewhere.
as far as the millions of Iraqis celebrated freedom, there was a report on last night about the millions of Iraqi refugees fleeing to Syria and Jordan for fear of their lives and how it's taxing the systems of those countries. and there are stories everyday of women and children being blown up in streets.

 

[jovial]

Originally Posted by jennythebugg
o.k guitarman I am a christian I am an American, I am also bisexual does this mean I am going to go to hell even though as young as 6 years old i can remember thinking about women along with men....I don't understand how you can say that God would make us this way just to condemn us to hell...does this mean that mentally retarded people that can't comprehend the concept of God are going to hell to ? I love the lord and I live a christian life , so how is it I'm gonna burn in hell for being bi and jeffrey dahmer is going to go to heaven because he repented ? I pray , I attend my fathers church ( which apparently holds more of the lords love than whatever church you are attending) I tithe I obey the laws of the land, but I'm a sinner because of something that a man disagreed with centuries ago God did not write the bible MAN did ( and yes it was a man MAN wrote the bible and MAN is apt to make his opinion law ...hence this thread) and Jesus never said gay was wrong read your Bible is it written in red NO what is written in red though is LOVE ONE ANOTHER...thank you
p.s Matt.22v.37-40 Love the lord your god with all your heart all your soul all your mind. this is the first and most important command and the second command is like the first love your neighbor as you love yourself. all the law and writings of the prophets depend on these two commands..... and thats from jesus

I dont think we can change the bible to suit our needs just because we might disagree with sections of it, either you accept it in it's entirety or reject it in it's entirety. To my understanding Jesus dosent hate anyone, he hates the sin. Most of us sin almost daily, but the Lord forgives us if we acknowledge and repent for our sins. Everyone thinks the wrong thoughts from time to time, but that dosent mean we have to act upon them.

 

[jennythebugg]

Originally Posted by Jovial
I dont think we can change the bible to suit our needs just because we might disagree with sections of it, either you accept it in it's entirety or reject it in it's entirety. To my understanding Jesus dosent hate sinner, he hates the sin. Most of us sin almost daily, but to my understading the Lord forgives us if we repent for our sins.
what I get the most would up about is when people say that things are wrong because the bible says so....welll god himself didnt write the bible , so who is to say that whats in there is what god wanted to be in there?.. you know if ya live your life by the 10 commandments you will more than likely never break a law , so that part is common sense(live and learn) but what ets me is how many of us will blindly follow what was written by HUMAN BEINGS centuries ago, when if you just follow your heart and gut the lord will direct your life.................................darth sorry that will be my last hijack post in this thread

 

[jovial]

Good point, but how do we know God didnt tell the scribes what to write? You put it good when you said if we follow the 10 commandments you will probably never break a law. I believe religion is based completely on faith.

 

[jennythebugg]

Originally Posted by Jovial
Good point, but how do we know God didnt tell the scribes what to write? You put it good when you said if we follow the 10 commandments. This is why I believe religion is based completely on faith.
how do we know they didnt write what THEY wanted to?