Gay Marriage, Abortion and other moral issue?

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Pontius
yes, Al Qaeda is there NOW. and what we've allowed Bush to do there has been a huge recruiting tool for Al Qaeda. and when we leave, Iran will most likely take over, no matter how it ends. Al Qaeda was NOT in Iraq before this war started. ....
I think that's Incorrect. Ayman al-Zawahiri met with Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad in 1992 and 1998, according to the CIA. The Comission said that there was contact between the two (Al Qaeda and Saddam), but no cooperation.
As for the President selling lies to everyone; Remember which President it was that bombed Iraq's "Nuclear, chemical and Biological facilities" (his words) in 1998? That's a pretty good scam if then Governor Bush convinced the President to attack Iraq. Also don't forget foreign leaders and Intel Agencies who said they had WMD's. Again, pretty good scam if the Gov. of Tx. fooled them.
Lastly, Saddam broke 17 UN resolutions. That's why we went to war.

 

[reefforbrains]

Everyone knows my stand on Gay marrage and I wont get into it on these boards beyond a simple thumbs down.
As for abortion- I think it SHOULD be an issue. I am all for it...no not as a hobby, but as a nessessary evil.
Nothing about God fearing folks vrs Athiest. Not Republicans vrs Democrats. Its about whether or not it will be legal in the future. The very topic and side of the road the individual stands that is running for office does play into it.
While some people have very directly stated about the war, illegal aliens, unemployment rate and so on seem far more important........ yes.
Nowadays canidates are covered 24/7 with CNN and countless talkshows and they ALL are trying to be unique. That entails thier preferences on:
Hot fudge vrs Butterscotch
Beer vrs wine
Windsor knot vrs Double windsor knot.
EVERYTHING is on display to try and get as many voters as possible to make some vague or even remote link to thier canidate and then forget about everything else with that particular canidates policy and underlying direction in regards to thier true agenda.
A voter that thinks its cool the way someone is fond of horses, collects cars, reminds them of a grandfather, or father,....OR MOTHER.
General population is completley uneducated and I do not try to pass myself off as anything more. All it takes is something trivial and Bam! they like the canidate.....once they subconciously decide they like the person, doesnt matter if he/she cheats on a spouse.....shoots a cabinet member....or otherwise.
Sorry for rambling, everyone gets my drift.
-RFB

 

[mike22cha]

I agree, I don't want to hear what the canidates have to say on abortion or gay marrige. I want to hear how they plan to win the war in Iraq, or improve our economy. We all know who would or wouldn't have an abortion canidatential wise, but why should that matter?
I feel that the church is going to push to make this an issue, and I wish it wouldn't. It is funny though, the church is suppossed to be a place where anyone can come in and praise the Lord as a group, it is suppossed to be accepting, but yet it makes anyone who had an abortion scared to come in, and you don't see a lot of gays in church. I think that the church should leave judging up to God, and accept people for who they are, even if you would never do the things that they did.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[reefreak29]

Originally Posted by reefreak29
That's quite the machiavellian attitude, but I don't think it holds true. If you look at instances where people find large amounts of money on the sidewalk, save random individuals at no benefit to their self, or donate anonymously to charity, you'll see that people police themselves for the sake of morality, regardless of government interference. Many people will argue that religion plays a large role in dictating morality, while many more who aren't religious will argue that their care for their fellow man will lead them to do the same. I think there are many exceptions to this, but I have a ton of theories on why that is. If you wish, ask and I'll go into them. However, when people are well off and happy, they tend to take advantage of their situation and pass off their benefits to others.
thats quite the optamistic attitude , the majority of people that find money on the street keep it . if u legalize abortion and gay marage sin will run rampid hey lets legalixze drugs whyll were at it im sure knowone will actually use them

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I think that's Incorrect. Ayman al-Zawahiri met with Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad in 1992 and 1998, according to the CIA. The Comission said that there was contact between the two (Al Qaeda and Saddam), but no cooperation.
As for the President selling lies to everyone; Remember which President it was that bombed Iraq's "Nuclear, chemical and Biological facilities" (his words) in 1998? That's a pretty good scam if then Governor Bush convinced the President to attack Iraq. Also don't forget foreign leaders and Intel Agencies who said they had WMD's. Again, pretty good scam if the Gov. of Tx. fooled them.
Lastly, Saddam broke 17 UN resolutions. That's why we went to war.
I never said there was no contact between them. Al Qaeda did contact Saddam, and Saddam was not interested in dealing them. I stated that in the other post. you're going to declare war on someone because they TALKED to Al Qaeda a decade earlier? lol. Al Qaeda also used to be an ally of the US, so is Bush going to turn the military on us next?
all Bush did was sell lies. I didn't say anything about 1998, and I never once stated that I thought Clinton was a great president either. but we didn't put troops on the ground in 1998, we did under Bush. please, tell me the situation is better now than it was in Iraq before we first went in.
yes, he did break UN resolutions. and that's why we went to war? then where are all the other UN troops? an individual UN country does not jump in to enforce UN resolutions. the UN process was already started, just as it had been in the first gulf war, but Bush decided to jump the gun. and Hans Blix, who was the guy who was actually IN Iraq, said that while Saddam was breaking resolutions, there was actually no evidence that he was manufacturing weapons of mass destruction.

 

[darthtang aw]

To whomever brought it up...what exactly is an exit strategy? Secondly please show me another war the U.S. has engaged in where the exit strategy was determined before the war started.
We have an exit strategy...We have had one for the past two years, some just don't like it as it relies on a new government and army governing themselves before we leave.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
To whomever brought it up...what exactly is an exit strategy? Secondly please show me another war the U.S. has engaged in where the exit strategy was determined before the war started.
We have an exit strategy...We have had one for the past two years, some just don't like it as it relies on a new government and army governing themselves before we leave.
they are not attempting to govern themselves. the police aren't even doing anything because many don't even show up to work, many get murdered, and many working for the other side are implanted in the police force. this is a cluster****ed mess. Bush got us in there, started a civil war between the two factions, and has gotten 3500 US troops killed. and for what, "Iraqi Freedom"? that is a complete joke. meanwhile, we are attempting to fight a war with rules against someone who follows no rules whatsoever. this war is a joke, Bush is a joke. stop kidding yourself. and my children and grandchildren will be paying this war decades from now started by a man with a 28% approval rating. that means barely 1 in 4 people actually think he's doing a good job. and he just has free reign to run this country into the ground. so generations from now, the US citizens will STILL be paying for this war and the only thing that's been accomplished is that MORE muslims hate us now than they did to begin with.

 

[darthtang aw]

Don't get me wrong, I feel the way the war was/is being handled was all wrong. However I grow tired of hearing we don't have an exit strategy, there is one, many just disagree with it. If it were my call, we would have removed Sadaam and pulled out. Let what happens happen and then if another dictator that is troublesome comes to power again go back in and remove them. I would not have wasted tax payer money trying to install a government. But I would have removed sadaam. When we caught Sadaam...we would have started a pull out and the U.N. could have come in and rebuilt and governed as they saw fit. I personally see the U.N. as inept for the most part, but they are better at supporting new nations than we are....

 

[darthtang aw]

I also believe a complete pull out at this point would just have us going back in within 6 months with the U.N. beside us...not sure if this is better or worse as the vacuum I foresee and blatant genocide that will occur may be worse...History has proven this in Vietnam and when England withdrew from China.
So we are in a catch 22.

 

[seasalt101]

Originally Posted by Pontius
they are not attempting to govern themselves. the police aren't even doing anything because many don't even show up to work, many get murdered, and many working for the other side are implanted in the police force. this is a cluster****ed mess. Bush got us in there, started a civil war between the two factions, and has gotten 3500 US troops killed. and for what, "Iraqi Freedom"? that is a complete joke. meanwhile, we are attempting to fight a war with rules against someone who follows no rules whatsoever. this war is a joke, Bush is a joke. stop kidding yourself. and my children and grandchildren will be paying this war decades from now started by a man with a 28% approval rating. that means barely 1 in 4 people actually think he's doing a good job. and he just has free reign to run this country into the ground. so generations from now, the US citizens will STILL be paying for this war and the only thing that's been accomplished is that MORE muslims hate us now than they did to begin with.
with the cards dealt i think bush is doing a fine job, no attacks on u.s. soil since 9/11 and the terrorist in iraq are being rounded up pretty quickly since the extra troops got there, that he's been after for months and the democrats kept holding them up, bottom line democrats don't care about losing the war hence protecting us republicans want to end the threat now, yes there were mistakes made name a war where there wasn't any mistakes made...tobin

 

[mike22cha]

Reefreak29, here is what I think. Yes sin has the oppurtunity to run rampid, but God let sin run rampid here on earth. He let us make the desicion to sin, so if America is sins, God will judge them for it like He will judge us.
Another way I see it, if abortion becomes illegal, then the procedure will not be in such a clean enviroment and done by good doctors, which could cause its own problems and own deaths.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by seasalt101
with the cards dealt i think bush is doing a fine job, no attacks on u.s. soil since 9/11 and the terrorist in iraq are being rounded up pretty quickly since the extra troops got there, that he's been after for months and the democrats kept holding them up, bottom line democrats don't care about losing the war hence protecting us republicans want to end the threat now, yes there were mistakes made name a war where there wasn't any mistakes made...tobin

Desert Storm...No mistake and minimum loss of life.....

 

[mike22cha]

Well Bush may be one of the worst presidents ever and made a lot of mistakes, but we still have to support him because he is our leader, even though it may be hard some times. Hopefully we will learn from our mistakes and find a good man for the job of president.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by MIKE22cha
Another way I see it, if abortion becomes illegal, then the procedure will not be in such a clean enviroment and done by good doctors, which could cause its own problems and own deaths.

I disagree with this viewpoint, using the same scenario, Heroin should be made legal and administered in hospitals to avoid the transmission of deadly diseases that are on the rise in the drug world. Also if made legal we would have less drug related killings and such.....The "medically" safe argument is redundant in my opinion.

 

[maxalmon]

Ok, I'll chime in on this.....
1)I am openly gay and have been in a healthy relationship for 9years
2)I own multiple companies with over 23 people on my payroll
3)I do volunter work for local charities
4)I own multiple homes and investments
5)I pay a lot ot taxes.
6)I would like to have a legal marriage, but, I can't
.
Did you know that if your legally married that you can sue if a drunk driver kills your other half, "Loss of Spouse or financial support"
I do not have this option and have no legal rights for wrongfull death, do you consider this fair?
.
Legal marriage also enjoys some incredible tax incentives, yet me and my partner have to pay more taxes because "were not legal" is this fair? kinda like being taxed for being gay
.
If you and your wife/husband were in a serious accident you could go to the hospital and make "life" decisons on treatment without so much as having to prove your married, you only have to state "my wife, my husband", yet unless I have paperwork to prove who I am and my legal power of attorney for medical decisions then I can't even get into the room to see my otherhalf, is this fair?
.
It wasn't too long ago that women could not vote, same for african americans
should I mention segragation
.
Can somebody please explain to me why me and my partner should not have the same legal rights as everyone else? Please leave the religious issue out of it as most who oppose gay rights never go to church they are simply spouting off based on hate
.
Why am I on this rant, because gay marriage is important to me and a lot of my friends,

 

[seasalt101]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
Desert Storm...No mistake and minimum loss of life.....
ok that was a well run war, good leadership, well planned out execution of objectives, i actually refered to this war a day or two back, my bad...tobin

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by seasalt101
yes there were mistakes made name a war where there wasn't any mistakes made...tobin
"mistakes made"? name me another war that was a mistake in and of itself (vietnam would be the only other one I could think of). name another war that was started on lies and deception?

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
I disagree with this viewpoint, using the same scenario, Heroin should be made legal and administered in hospitals to avoid the transmission of deadly diseases that are on the rise in the drug world. Also if made legal we would have less drug related killings and such.....The "medically" safe argument is redundant in my opinion.
How readily available are clean needles? The medically safe agrument is very valid and is a good point. If abortions were to become illegal you know that there would be a black market for them and it could be potentially deadly and dangerous. I've said it before I am not an abortion proponent but at the same time making it illegal would be a terrible idea. Women have the right to do what they wish with their bodies and it's not the governments job to govern this because it's viewed as immoral. What would be next? Would we ban all --- in movies, ban alcohol, teach christianity in public schools or put homosexuals in prison?

 

[lion_crazz]

Max, I totally agree with the points you argued. How could something which is based in LOVE be wrong? If you truly love your partner and live a Christian lifestyle, then there is no way that God could deny you.
And as much as I hate abortion, I think it is a necessary evil. A woman has the right to do with her body as she pleases. Whether that action is right or not is a totally different story. However, she is the one who will have to face God, not you or me. She will have to face the consequences of her actions. The government does not have any standing to tell her what she can and cannot do to her body as long as it is safe to herself and others. It is her body and her responsibly to choose what happens with her body. Obviously, the government has the right to tell you that you cannot do drugs or drive under the influence of alcohol because that puts you and other people in jeopardy. However, abortion, done in a medically safe environment, does not.
Originally Posted by Jmick
Would we ban all --- in movies, ban alcohol, teach christianity in public schools or put homosexuals in prison?
All of these things were tried in the early to mid 20th century (replace homosexuals with supposed "communists"), with no success. The government's attempt to do these things to clean up society just made things worse. Look at the era of prohibition or the Red scare.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Jmick
How readily available are clean needles? The medically safe agrument is very valid and is a good point. If abortions were to become illegal you know that there would be a black market for them and it could be potentially deadly and dangerous. I've said it before I am not an abortion proponent but at the same time making it illegal would be a terrible idea. Women have the right to do what they wish with their bodies and it's not the governments job to govern this because it's viewed as immoral. What would be next? Would we ban all --- in movies, ban alcohol, teach christianity in public schools or put homosexuals in prison?

As I have stated I believe these are issues the government should butt out of. I just disagree with the medical and black market argument as this opens the door for other things as well. Heroin should be legal then this way you don't have to worry about making bad heroin and killing people. Meth should then also be legal because people that make it are harming themselves by breathing toxic chemicals into their bodies and making homes unsafe to live in just to sell it on the "black market" to their consumer. How are these things different from the black market that would be created for abortion and make it unsafe?