Hey all you lighting experts!

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thomas712

Guest
Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
.Also how the refraction of light through water comes into play here and why at18 inches this isnt discussed much but with a tall 65 which is 24 in it seems to be an issue..

I can't post the link or all of the articl cause it has too many adds and things that will not copy here, but this may help answer that quesion. It starts before this and ends well afterwards, quite technical.
Excerpt:
Underwater Light Field in Nature
Once the photons of light have made it all the way from the sun and across the air-water surface on the coral reefs, lets see what happens to them when they get into the water. The light traveling from the top of the water surface toward the bottom is called downwelling light. Some of the downwelling light gets absorbed, and some is scattered by the dissolved and particulate matter in the water and by the water molecules themselves. Turbidity is a term used to describe the amount of particulate matter. The higher the turbidity, the more light that is absorbed and scattered. The absorption and scattering result in reduction in the quantity of downwelling light as the depth increases (Kirk, 1994). Once the photons enters the water, most photos are eventually absorbed - either by the light absorbing molecules of the water, the optically active dissolved substances, the particulate matter, and eventually by the photosynthetic process that occurs in the corals and the suspended phytoplankton in the water column.
Further, the scatter also creates some upwelling light (backscattering of light). Some of this upwelling light escapes out of the water back into the air and is the reason for the color of the ocean. On coral reefs, the upwelling irradiance is also increased by reflection from the "white" calcium carbonate substrate found on the reef floor. In fact, on coral reefs this upwelling irradiance may be a significant portion of the total irradiance (Dustan 1982). This upwelling light plays a critical role in allowing the growth of corals on the under storey of the reefs. Thus, the addition of a white calcium carbonate substrate in a reef aquarium also helps in increasing the upwelling irradiance, while simultaneously increasing the biodiversity. Rather than covering all the sand with live rock, a good strategy would be to provide large open sand areas to increase upwelling irradiance.
Natural waters have what are often referred to as inherent and apparent optical properties. Inherent optical properties (IOP) are a function of the water and optically active substances in it and are not influenced by the geometric structure of the light fields. IOP were usually determined in the laboratory but now routinely measured in situ too and include the following (all units are m-1):
absorption coefficient (a) - fraction of the incident flux absorbed divided by
the thickness of an infinitesimally thin layer of medium
scattering coefficient (b) - fraction of the incident flux scattered divided by
the thickness of an infinitesimally thin layer of medium
beam attenuation coefficient (c) - fraction of incident flux which is absorbed
and scattered divided by the thickness of an infinitesimally thin layer. The beam
attenuation coefficient is the sum of the absorption and scattering coefficients:
c = a + b
Apparent optical properties (AOP) are derived from measurements of natural light fields in a water body. They depend on the geometry of the light fields and are related to absorption and scattering. The most common of these properties is the diffuse attenuation coefficient for downwelling irradiance (Kd). Irradiance at a given depth (EZ) is a function of the irradiance at the surface (E0), the diffuse attenuation coefficient, and the depth interval (Z) according to the following relationship, where e is the base of the natural logarithms:
 
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thomas712

Guest
Originally Posted by TurningTim
and I don't get why the varation of the projected life of bulbs are. Is it just a matter of the quaility of the bulb itself? And how do you ever really know?
Thanks
Tim
That is going to relay not only on the bulbs, but the lenght of time on (photo period) as well as the ballast you use which drives the bulbs, tar? electronic? all depends. Simply put the variation of life of a bulb is only an average, everyone is going to be different there. How good the ballast is is a major factor IMO.
 

turningtim

Active Member
So the only real way to tell is not to tell at all and change the bulbs on a regular basis or wait until the tank starts to fail in the sense of algae growth and corals being disturbed.....
In the article above , Its not only the light source but what the light has to go through to get to the corals. Particulate matter, glass tops, guards and the photo-criitters that live in the water colum. Also a black sand bed will not be as effient as a white sand bed b/c of the reflective natural of each.
Don't want to get into logarithms! I suffered enough brain damage in calculus!
Tim
 

swlover

Member
Thomas712...Thank you that is exactly what I was looking for..you have helped me more than you know. Now I can make my decision. This is something I have been waiting for, the uncertainty was driving me a little batty. a little something special for you!
 
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thomas712

Guest
Originally Posted by TurningTim
So the only real way to tell is not to tell at all and change the bulbs on a regular basis or wait until the tank starts to fail in the sense of algae growth and corals being disturbed.....
Tim
What you could do is this. Purchase light bulbs before you need them, after 8-10 months just for fun replace them. If you go WOW! then leave them in, if not put the old one's back in. or leave the new ones in for two weeks, if the corals themselfs go WOW! then leave them in, if not put the old ones back. you get the picture. In any event save the old ones till you get new ones, that way if one ever breaks you have a spare, it may be a dim shifted spare, but a spare none the less.
Thomas
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Electronis ballasts are inherently more efficient that magnetic(tar).You will see an extended bulb and ballast light with these. However they do create harmonic spikes.This are terrible for circuits with sensitive electronic equipment connected to the same circuit. CPU's hard drives and other senstive equipment should be kept seperate from circuitswith large harmonic loads. Because most of us do not have these things incorporated into or aquariums this is not a problem if you have your set up connected to its own dedicated circuit. It probably is not a problem if you have a few bal;lasts only.I.E. 3 or 4. Wich would be the case with most aquariest. Bulb life can be extended on ballasted fixtures by running lamps for longer periods. Keep this in mind when selecting you photo cycle. IMO a 12 hr. cycle would be considerably more beneficial in this aspect to sa an 8 hr. cycle. T5,s because of thier smaller diameter are capable of producing a more intense beam of light which can be directed more intensly than lets say a t8 or t10(1 !/8 diam.) or T12 (1 1/4) diameter. This lets the light be cast farther with less light losses. Also a T5 can be very harsh to look directly at. This is a result of the glare given off from these HO lamps. In the industry when using these lamps often times they will be used in an indirect lighting system. This is where the light is cast onto another object usually a wall or ceiling and then bounced back down. Used in these situations with direct lighting results. Again in this aspect myopinion is their ability to create and cast the light better. This is whay they outperform the vho's in the real world.I can scan and post some of the stats from my GE catalog and think I have another I can check out if anyone is interested in seeing these. I agree with the too much is better than not enough attitude. However, I am a novice and dont know what is enough or not enough. Without the PAR rating on these lamps we cant tell.Correct Thomas. Thats what were after after isnt it? Photosynthesis availabe Radiation? How is that measured and how do we know how much we need?
 

turningtim

Active Member
Originally Posted by Thomas712
What you could do is this. Purchase light bulbs before you need them, after 8-10 months just for fun replace them. If you go WOW! then leave them in, if not put the old one's back in. or leave the new ones in for two weeks, if the corals themselfs go WOW! then leave them in, if not put the old ones back. you get the picture. In any event save the old ones till you get new ones, that way if one ever breaks you have a spare, it may be a dim shifted spare, but a spare none the less.
Thomas
Common sense Thomas!
Sometimes I just out think myself!

Just to through another wrench in the works! I was just at my LFS today talking with my buddy about lights etc. He showed me a new light that is being made by Via-aqua. One single T5 with a parabolic (sp?) reflector that has the output of three T5's.
Just an ad but it's out there........
Thanks again
Tim
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Possibly I may have came off arogantly in my previose thread. If I did i heartfelty apologize. I didnt mean to. I could not have answered my own question and that is why it was asked. The thred was in an effort to work through this. There were some posts on there which were dificult to make clear about wattage and such to a person who did not want to listen to the facts about watts. i was frustrated in trying to get through and that is the reason behind my behavior. i am a very easy going person and only wantto contribute back tyo this board for what has been given tome. All is much appreciated.
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Tim, this is a result of the reflector making better use of the light which the lamp creates a better beam of. A result of the smaller diameter. Why exactly Im not sure. But I've seen em in the industry and went WOW! But when their doing so do they make better use or create enough PAR?
 

turningtim

Active Member
Not really sure Doc, I just saw the ad very quickly. I do however plan to check into it. But even if you got 2 for 1 a 4 bulb system looks pretty darn bright!
Tim
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Heres a net find: More at the site where i found it.
Google:photsynthetic available radiation
1) System Light Quality:
The quality of light is it's composition, mix of spectra (wavelengths), or color, if you will. Let's review the prominent measures/features of light quality, so you can make apples-to-apples comparisons for yourself regarding the various means of lighting your system(s).
Color Rendering Index (CRI) is an indication of how a light source affects the appearance of a standardized color chart compared with natural sunlight (under controlled conditions). Obviously, sunlight scores a big 100 CRI, with numbers approaching one-hundred being close to sunlight. See the accompanying chart for what the sun's spectral power curve approximates. For the sake of photosynthesis in aquaria, CRI values of ninety (90) or greater are called for.
Color Temperature is a more difficult concept to elucidate. For our purposes, let's just say that this is an equivalent temperature of a star (like our sun) that would emit the radiation measured. Our stars sunlight ranges somewhere between 5,000 and 6,200 degrees Kelvin. We want a light source of 5,000 degrees Kelvin (some writers say 6,000) or greater along with a CRI of 90 or greater. Make sense so far? Let me re-emphasize; the pretty color rendered by "aquatic fluorescents" has nothing to do with functionality. You want a CRI of 90+ coupled with a Color Temperature of 5,000+ Kelvin.
A note here on Spectral Shift. As they are used, all the differing light technologies change to known degrees in the percentages of what wavelengths they produce. Their luminosity decreases also, along with the preponderance of the desired spectral bands. We'll have more to say about this later, but what you'll want to provide and make adjustment for is that light quality degrades over use/time with all lamps.
2) Light Quantity
Otherwise known as intensity or photo-strength, the amount of light is just as critical as its quality. Light quantity is measured in lumens, the International Standard of emitted light. Please forget about the terms foot candle, and lux (ten foot candles). These are archaic measures of received light and not of much real use to the Conscientious Aquarist.
I'll go out on a/the proverbial limb and offer a general "rule of thumb" for how much light is enough, to approaching optimal, to more than can be useful but not harmful. My hesitancy is based on not knowing many factors that strongly affect your system's light requirements. Tall tanks (greater than twenty inches) require more light. Ditto for ones with lots of life, especially ones with mechanical surface disruptors (pumps, bubblers), staggered, shady decor arrangements, dissolved color, particulates.... Different photosynthetic species., adapted to differing conditions and traumas have differing light demands. Water color, carbon dioxide, carbonate, pH, temperature... and more also change the minimum/maximum suggested lumens. Be all that as it may, I suggest one to two watts of full-spectrum fluorescents, roughly equivalent to 50 to 100 lumens per gallon for most systems (sight unseen). For "super-systems" with C02 infusion, pH monitors/dosimeters, mega-algae and/or light-demanding plant species, doubling (and then some) this number is not unrealistic. One last comment re the above. Be aware that the watts of energy consumed is not equivalent to watts of light energy produced. Luminous efficacy, the light output divided by the power rating of the lamp, expressed in lumens per watt, is an important measure. The waste heat from other lighting formats is largely the lost part of this equation. You don't want to pay for this waste-heat, it's consequences, or elimination.
Lamps have rated life and lumen depreciation. The latter describes the loss of light production over the life of a lamp; all lamps produce less light as they age with use. Rated life is a value determined by experiment. It is the time in which half the test lamps burn out; this is much more than their functional life span. Four foot fluorescents are good for - 20,000 hours, shorter lamps slightly less time. This translates to a good two years of 12-13 hours per day. Turning the lamp on/off frequently shortens real and functional life. The use of electronic ballasts extends the same. HO, VHO (Very High Output) and metal halide lamps suffer much more quickly and severely from lumen depreciation and rated life, as much as forty percent loss.
 
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thomas712

Guest
Aside from the shiny metal reflectors that make you go ooh ahh, think about this. The URI VHO bulbs that I use have internal reflectors, which in my mind make for a bit more punch into the water. Do any PC or T-5 bulbs do that?
The 180 degree internal reflector allows for 40% more light output.
Thomas
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Thomas, are the reflectors simply input into the lamp covering the back so to say of the lamp. IMO, this wiil have a dramatic effect on the "punch" of light into the tank if thats the case. That is essentially an internal parabolic reflector i believe. And an external one with tightly grouped lamps like what the pc's essentially are (a longer tube of glass that is bent in order to fit into a tighter space, forming one lamp) or what the T5's are capable of becoming would give a similar effect. Maybe even a better effect but thats just a guess. My theory on why it may be better would go along the lines of light emitting from the lamp and being cast downward by an external parabolic reflector. But thats just a theory to chew on. Dont know if either would be better or worse than the other.
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
I found this interesting,
copy/paste
Fluorescent bulbs come in various intensities. Normal Output (NO), High Output (HO) and Very High Output (VHO). More and more we are hearing that aquarist are choosing to use VHO lighting. VHO fluorescent lighting will give you all the spectrum you need for live rock, corals and fish without the intensity of filling your hood up with an overload of too many bulbs to do the same job. They are a practical, less expensive alternative to medal halide lighting while keeping the adequate spectrum for your coral lighting, and they run cooler.
In an exchange from our Guide's FAQ's with Tom about his questions on Aquarium Lighting (using compact lighting) he said "The power compact that I was referring to was manufactured by Customsealife. Since writing you I have talked with several other people, and while there appear to be a few people that were satisfied, several have returned them and went back to VHO from VHO in the first place. One of the people that I talked with was Greg at Marine World and he said that several of his customers did just that. They went from VHO to power compact, and then back to VHO." Greg is a great source of knowledge, but unfortunately he is no longer in business with his store. However, we value Greg's input as we did business with him for many years while we had our Hawaiian Quality Fish business from 1989-1999.
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
More of the same page here.
Luis Mercado paid a visit to Ron Hunsicker, of Ron's Saltwater Heaven, and found that Ron uses VHO lighting on his 150 gallon reef tank. For his main 265 gallon display reef tank, that had been voted the BEST soft coral tank in the US by hobbyist and author Mike Paletta, he uses 12 VHO fluorescent lights powered by regular tar ballasts. By reading Luis' write up about his Visit To Ron's Saltwater Heaven you can see the results are stunning, to say the least. You can also visit Ron's Saltwater Heaven on-line products page to inquire about his custom made wooden canopies with 4, 6, 8 fluorescent or VHO bulbs, for what Ron states on his site is "the ultimate in lighting efficiency."
The downside of using VHO bulbs is they that need to be replaced more often. Albert Thiel states in his Marine Fish and Invert Reef Aquarium book, Lighting The Reef Tank Chapter, "using high output (HO) bulbs is certainly better because you will typically gain 25% to sometimes 50% more light. Unfortunately, the VHO bulbs (very high output) change their spectrum too rapidly, although they can be used for yet an additional gain in intensity. You must, however, replace them frequently to compensate for the spectrum loss, usually every 4 to 5 months." Two brands of fluorescent light tubes that Albert Thiel mentions and recommends in various lighting articles he has written are Coralife VHO's by Energy Savers Unlimited (ESU) and URI VHO's that you can find from Aquatic Technology. To locate other fish stores or on-line suppliers that sell VHO lights and accessories, visit our Aquarium Supplies - Lights page.
 

coachklm

Active Member
wow.... thanks for pickin up that "rock" for me Thomas.....

saved me a bunch a time

but i'm always here to help....
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Originally Posted by TurningTim
Common sense Thomas!
Sometimes I just out think myself!

Just to through another wrench in the works! I was just at my LFS today talking with my buddy about lights etc. He showed me a new light that is being made by Via-aqua. One single T5 with a parabolic (sp?) reflector that has the output of three T5's.
Just an ad but it's out there........
Thanks again
Tim
BTW TIM, I noticed that some of the manufacturesare claiming 300% greater light input with the parabolic reflectors HMMMM :thinking: That does seem like a lot. Not trying to push the T5's here just really intreresting stuff.
 

bang guy

Moderator
I'm really sorry I missed out on this one. It was a great conversation.
Here's a question very rarely considered:
Which is more important;
1 - The amount of light generated by a bulb.
2 - The amount of light that actually enters the water.
On another note, someone asked about when to change bulbs since it varies depending on the bulb, ballast, photoperiod, etc.
Generally it's the number of starts but the other factors do play a very important role. Instead of trying to figure out a complicated formula I use a LUX meter.
LUX meters are a terrible way to figure out how much light your tank is getting but they are an excellent way to determine the lifespan of a bulb. After burning a bulb for a couple of weeks the output will stabilize. Use a LUX meter and record the lumens reading. Make sure you also record the distance from the bulb. For flourescent bulbs I just place the meter right up against the bulb.
To check to see if your bulb is still going strong just measure the lumens again. Once the lumens drop 15% it's time for a new bulb.
also - I advise against changing all of your bulbs at the same time, stagger the changes throughout the year.
aslo -
 

turningtim

Active Member
Thanks Bang! may have to pick one of those up. I guess I'm very curious b/c my xenia is not what it used to be. I seems to be OK but just not getting the reproduction I used to. And today I noticed that my green leather is not coming out. I haven't checked the water but its usually pretty consistant. I did add a small 6 line wrasse and I wounder if hes munching on the leather?
Why is the LUX meter a poor choice for measureing lumens in the tank? Is there something better. From the above articles it would seems that the clarity of water and what the light has to go through matters a great deal.
Thanks again!
Tim
 
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