"Holiday" Tree

[beth]

Originally Posted by jdragunas
ok, my dad actually had a very good point when i brought this up to him. Christmas is not necessarily a religious holiday, although a lot of people take it to be. Christmas is simply the celebration of the birth of a man way back in the day named Jesus Christ. That doesn't necessarily mean we're celebrating him as our savior, it just means we're giving him a birthday party. Jesus Christ existed, and whether or not you believe him to be your savior is irrelevant. Now, christmas doesn't even mean that! It means santa comes and give all the good kids presents... why do people get offended by that???
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You all think you might be able to do this for my birthday?

The problem is the non-Christians want to horn in on the "birthday party" but not silently. Its like, you barge in for dinner at my house, and then tell me what needs to be on the menu.
Just enjoy the Christmas Holiday in the spirit that it should be celebrated. Giving, Family, Friends, Joy and yes, a Christmas Tree.

 

[jdragunas]

 

[reefbabe]

Originally Posted by Beth
The problem is the non-Christians want to horn in on the "birthday party" but not silently. Its like, you barge in for dinner at my house, and then tell me what needs to be on the menu.
Right-O...well said. It's a shame that there are those who believe that Christmas is all about a fat guy named Santa.....why do you even celebrate the holiday? For want and presents. or as someone said, "to feed Walmart and such"? Christmas is the celebration of the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (assuming you are christian). Let us again....keep it simple.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Mimzy
Scuba Doo, you're right...the people that want to re-name the tree are doodyheads. They don't get it.
My issue is that there is a Christmas tree for the NATION...when a huge percentage of the nation isn't Christian.
So Merry Christmas, Happy Hanuka, Happy Kwanza and a Joyous Festivus...and have a very lovely Tuesday for that matter as well.

Actually about 85% of the US population is Christian...based on statistics I have read. Perhaps your definition of huge differs from mine. I'm sure many in that 15% group are not offended by the word "God" appearing on US currency...I've yet to hear of a mass movement refusing the money.
For all those offended..I will provide you and address...feel free to forward all that offensive money to me.

 

[jdragunas]

ooohh, can i get in on that too???
and of that 15%, there's probably a good percentage that aren't christian, but do believe in God...

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by jdragunas
ooohh, can i get in on that too???
and of that 15%, there's probably a good percentage that aren't christian, but do believe in God...
Actually, there are some that beleive in God and/or a Christmas celebration that still feel the government should not place a decorated tree on governemnt owned property and call it a Christmas tree.
What is displayed on the property is in fact by common definition a Christmas tree. To display this and call it something else is IMO..... offensive.
Tammy Fay Baker can try and layer all the silly putty makeup she wants on her face...but she still fits the definition of ugly. I call it as I see it.

 

[dogstar]

Mimzy's right. She gets it.
What shes looking for is equal representation...from the Goverment. Everyone is skirting that issue.
The Goverment..
Imagine all the tax payers money spent on collecting, transporting, erecting, decorateing, running and removeing that one symbol of one religion's holiday.
Thats her point as well as mine.
People of other faiths and of no faiths pay taxes too...
If they spent that same amount of money to erect and display other religion's symbols of their holidays every year at the White House, like erecting a huge golden dome and cresent moon durning Ramadan or a Star of David at Yam Kipper or Passover, IMO most of the same ppl. defending that tree would be outraged. ( Im not sure what other religion's symbols are, but you get the point )
But thats really the only way to make it right.
OK, even 15 percent of the money would work for me but then again, ppl. would fight over the numbers.
I dont think that THEY , those people, what ever you choose to call them, are trying to take Christmas out of you liveing room or your yard or church, your clubs or orginizations. They dont have that right.
Bussines's have the right to do as they want as well, thats all profit driven anyway. Christmas is too commercalized. Thats what Christians IMO should really be complaining about.
The point is that the Goverment should not be choosing only one religion and putting it in anyones eyes. Spending tax money on religion on Goverment property, And yes that includes public schools. Unless its done with equality to all religions. Like its done at Arlington Cemetery.
Its speech, so what is the Goverment saying buy only chooseing the one religion and honoring it. Yes, it is a Christmas tree and we all know what it means....Buy calling it a holiday tree still dosen't make it right...A rose is a rose...

 

[beth]

If we ever have a non-Christian president [not likely to happen during any of our lifetimes] then the tree will not be put up. Of all tax dollars that White House residents waste [and I mean all Presidents] we are going to split hairs over a tree. What about furniture, china, art, clothes, cars, etc., etc., etc., and the list can go on into the mega bucks. Now tell me that every time there is a new President, new china needs to be ordered?
Give the poor Christmas Tree a break. Its a beloved tradition, even if you are not Christian. Most, even beyond the 85%, love Christmas.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Dogstar
Mimzy's right. She gets it.
What shes looking for is equal representation...from the Goverment. Everyone is skirting that issue.
The Goverment..

I disagree.
I've quoted the First Amendment... it does not call for the "seperation of church and state...". People are trying to bend the Constitution to say something it doesn't.... that's far more of an issue to me than calling a dead tree a "Christmas" tree. The Government has a responibility to protect the minority viewpoint, not to cave into it. You are protected to call it a "Holiday" tree all day long. That doesn't mean the government has too. That's the point that is getting skirted. As a "Christian" nation we have a right and an obligation to protect our customs, heritage, and holidays.
Make no mistake, this doesn't end at the foot of a tree. Our national motto is being attacked, the historical accuracy of our nation's founding is under attack, and our traditions and culture are being attacked. All by a minority that says they just want "tolerance and equal representation.."
From a purely monetary standpoint... how much increased tourism dollars does DC receive during the "Christmas" season?
People complain about the White House being decorated, etc... do you complain over the expense of the Presidential Galas? how about the cost of recounting ballots in Florida 79 million times... or the cost local and state governments have to spend defending tradition against frivolous lawsuits aimed at removing "religion" from the public. Anyone against the statue of Rosa Parks being commisioned? After all, she just sat down on a bus, to the best of my recollection she never was hung on a cross..

 

[dreamreef]

HO! HO! HO! Merry Holiday!.... just doesn't sound right to me. But I would like to wish everyone of you the best this holiday season!!!!! :happyfish

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Beth
If we ever have a non-Christian president ...

many would argue we had one for most of the 90's... when the tree was renamed a "holiday" tree.

 

[beth]

And many would argue that we have a hypocritical one now...so lets not go there. They both say they are Christians, so they are at least in their public persona.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman

many would argue we had one for most of the 90's... when the tree was renamed a "holiday" tree.
it is my understanding the individual(s) responsible for the renaming have never been identified. If someone knows who gave the orders please let me know.
Certainly, these things do not just 'happen"...or do they? :thinking:

 

[dogstar]

Intresting that that was brought up. We have had non-Christain Presedents in the past. Most historians who studied it and some openly state so. Madison, Monroe, Van Buren, Tyler, Lincoln, A. Johnson, Grant, Arthur, T. Roosevelt. Im not sure about the Quaker faith, if thats considered Christian but they were Hoover and Nixon.
Many of the founding fathers were non-Christain as well, Franklin just to name one. And most of them did beleive in the idea of seperation of church and state.
I feel that I had said enough on the subject and will thank everyone ( who has been ) for being respecfull in the conversation.
Free speech has enlightned the world.........
Merry Christmas and happy holidays to all others, God Bless

 

[jones]

Originally Posted by Dogstar
Mimzy's right. She gets it.
What shes looking for is equal representation...from the Goverment. Everyone is skirting that issue.
The Goverment..
Imagine all the tax payers money spent on collecting, transporting, erecting, decorateing, running and removeing that one symbol of one religion's holiday.
Thats her point as well as mine.
People of other faiths and of no faiths pay taxes too...
If they spent that same amount of money to erect and display other religion's symbols of their holidays every year at the White House, like erecting a huge golden dome and cresent moon durning Ramadan or a Star of David at Yam Kipper or Passover, IMO most of the same ppl. defending that tree would be outraged. ( Im not sure what other religion's symbols are, but you get the point )
But thats really the only way to make it right.
OK, even 15 percent of the money would work for me but then again, ppl. would fight over the numbers.
I dont think that THEY , those people, what ever you choose to call them, are trying to take Christmas out of you liveing room or your yard or church, your clubs or orginizations. They dont have that right.
Bussines's have the right to do as they want as well, thats all profit driven anyway. Christmas is too commercalized. Thats what Christians IMO should really be complaining about.
The point is that the Goverment should not be choosing only one religion and putting it in anyones eyes. Spending tax money on religion on Goverment property, And yes that includes public schools. Unless its done with equality to all religions. Like its done at Arlington Cemetery.
Its speech, so what is the Goverment saying buy only chooseing the one religion and honoring it. Yes, it is a Christmas tree and we all know what it means....Buy calling it a holiday tree still dosen't make it right...A rose is a rose...
Well put

 

[jones]

Originally Posted by Mimzy
the people that want to re-name the tree are doodyheads.
very well put.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
it is my understanding the individual(s) responsible for the renaming have never been identified. If someone knows who gave the orders please let me know.
Certainly, these things do not just 'happen"...or do they? :thinking:
I bet it was the same guy that shoved a bunch of documents down his pants and tried to walk out of the Library of Congress...

 

[mimzy]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I disagree.
I've quoted the First Amendment... it does not call for the "seperation of church and state...". People are trying to bend the Constitution to say something it doesn't.... that's far more of an issue to me than calling a dead tree a "Christmas" tree. The Government has a responibility to protect the minority viewpoint, not to cave into it. You are protected to call it a "Holiday" tree all day long. That doesn't mean the government has too. That's the point that is getting skirted. As a "Christian" nation we have a right and an obligation to protect our customs, heritage, and holidays.
Make no mistake, this doesn't end at the foot of a tree. Our national motto is being attacked, the historical accuracy of our nation's founding is under attack, and our traditions and culture are being attacked. All by a minority that says they just want "tolerance and equal representation.."
From a purely monetary standpoint... how much increased tourism dollars does DC receive during the "Christmas" season?
People complain about the White House being decorated, etc... do you complain over the expense of the Presidential Galas? how about the cost of recounting ballots in Florida 79 million times... or the cost local and state governments have to spend defending tradition against frivolous lawsuits aimed at removing "religion" from the public. Anyone against the statue of Rosa Parks being commisioned? After all, she just sat down on a bus, to the best of my recollection she never was hung on a cross..
...Actually, Journeyman, we complain about all those frivolous expenditures - but none of them were in the subject line of this thread, so we happen to be talking about the holiday tree at the moment and we'll reserve another thread for the china.
I must say the fact that you called America a "Christian Nation," alarmed me greatly - no one else I know, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or anyone else for that matter has EVER called this a Christian Nation. But now that I think about it... it makes sense. That's why gays can't marry. That's why abortion is still an issue. It's all so very subtle - because our government doesn't do blatant things like call in the Pope whenever there's a question about something...but the influences are there.
Yet, as I think about it, maybe that's not because this is a Christian NATION, but because there happened to have been Christians with certain kinds of ideals and agendas writing the laws. I still don't think it's a Christian Nation. I think it's a democratic nation. A melting pot. A beautiful place to live full of freedoms MOST of the world's populations wouldn't even DREAM about.
The seperation between Church and State may indeed not be in the first amendment, but somebody said it at some point, and it stuck. And the people have clung to it. A nation is nothing but its people.
And that's why we can commission statues of Rosa Parks and the Wright Brothers and Malcom X and Martin Luther King....because we are not JUST a Christian nation. We are not a nation of any specific religion at all. We are a nation of MANY peoples, with MANY priorities, and our heros hail from every walk of life.

 

[scubadoo]

Santa Claus Under Attack
By Brian Briggs
North Pole – Father Christmas is under attack this week from privacy advocates concerned about the jolly old elf's growing database of personal information.
"He sees you when you're sleeping. He knows when you're awake. He knows if you've been bad or good," said privacy advocate Ben Hodgkins. "He also knows the wants and wishes of every child on the planet."
He continued, "Santa has been a good steward of this information, but we're uncomfortable with all this data being concentrated in one place. We're not saying that we don't trust Santa, but what about a rogue elf with a drug habit to support. Stealing the list and selling it to Toys R Us would be tempting."
Hodgkins also worries that Santa operates outside any government's control in his sovereign North Pole region where Santa only answers to himself. "He doesn't have a privacy policy. He often collects his information without the knowledge of the consumer. It's a John Ashcroft fantasy scenario," said Hodgkins.
Santa's information could be valuable to all sorts of retailers as well as government organizations. One Amazon official said, "The data mining we could do on Santa's database gets me in the Christmas spirit. Every request of every child for hundreds of years, that information is priceless."
Amid growing concerns Santa beefed up computer security around "The List" last year, and continued his pledge to never share or sell the information he has on "all the happy boys and girls around the globe. Ho, ho, ho."
Neil Gruban a privacy expert from the Heritage Foundation isn't convinced. "Santa's all 'ho, ho, ho' on the outside, but running an operation like his takes a lot of cash. Where does that money come from? You're living in a fantasy world if you think it's all coming from licensing fees. "

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Mimzy
...I must say the fact that you called America a "Christian Nation," alarmed me greatly - no one else I know, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or anyone else for that matter has EVER called this a Christian Nation. But now that I think about it... it makes sense. That's why gays can't marry. That's why abortion is still an issue. It's all so very subtle - because our government doesn't do blatant things like call in the Pope whenever there's a question about something...but the influences are there.
Yet, as I think about it, maybe that's not because this is a Christian NATION, but because there happened to have been Christians with certain kinds of ideals and agendas writing the laws. I still don't think it's a Christian Nation. I think it's a democratic nation. A melting pot. A beautiful place to live full of freedoms MOST of the world's populations wouldn't even DREAM about.
The seperation between Church and State may indeed not be in the first amendment, but somebody said it at some point, and it stuck. And the people have clung to it. A nation is nothing but its people.
And that's why we can commission statues of Rosa Parks and the Wright Brothers and Malcom X and Martin Luther King....because we are not JUST a Christian nation. We are not a nation of any specific religion at all. We are a nation of MANY peoples, with MANY priorities, and our heros hail from every walk of life.
Can open, worms everywhere...
I travelled to central Europe last spring and spoke to school kids about the differences between our Easter customs and their "spring holiday" (communists removed "easter" from the calendar....) The kids (12-16 year olds) were stunned when I explained that I wouldn't be allowed to talk about Easter in a US school the way I could in Slovakia.
Our country was founded by Christians, fleeing religious persecution. our National Motto is "In God we Trust", our Congress begins with prayer. From our Declaration of Independence forward our founding fathers acknowledged God. You may not like or agree, but you can't deny that..
"The seperation between Church and State may indeed not be in the first amendment, but somebody said it at some point, and it stuck. And the people have clung to it. A nation is nothing but its people"
Huh? So, if our laws don't say it, but enough people chant it like a mantra then it must be true?
Now, for the other issues you bring up. Marriage, as defined by our laws, is between a man and a woman. Much like the holiday tree vs Christmas tree argument, you don't get to randomly change the definition of a word to fit your opinions...
Abortion is an issue for one simple reason... No one can say for certain when life begins... You tell me when a "lump of tissue" becomes a human and I'll say have all the abortions you want... until that time, however, I'll throw a flag and say "shouldn't we err on the side of caution vs. convenience?" What's the difference between a 7 month old fetus and a new born baby other than location? Both can survive with proper care, both will die under neglect. Why can Drs. perform abortions at will while a 16 year old HS girl is demonized if she slits the throat of her new born?
I believe our nation is defined by many different heros. So, can we agree to forgo the Christmas tree, honor Rosa Parks and erect a Crucifix on the Capital Grounds?