"Holiday" Tree

[mimzy]

OK, so, when you go out amongst the people, in the public school system, you can't talk about Easter the way you might in a Church, but the government says things like "God" and has prayer every so often...so...that makes us a Christian Country. I see.
...oh wait...no....no I don't.
The issue isn't abortion or gay marraiges - it's the fact that the people are no longer interested in being governed by certain rules that had certain agendas. This country is organic - things are always changing, and at the moment, there is a very noisy outcry for the seperation of things religious from things legal.
Very nice that a lot of the founding fathers happened to be Christian (and as noted in other posts, some were NOT -many, were in fact Deists), but they are resting in peace and WE are here NOW, and things are changing. Their basic principles were brilliant - and remain essential to our country's evolution. But things evolving as they are, some of the fat needs to be cut out. The constitution indeed was NOT written by God, nor is it religious doctrine - otherwise it would have been impossible to ammend. It is still being ammended, and changes as the people do. Slaves were allowed to vote. Women were allowed to vote. It goes on and on, but you know, you've read them. It evolves as the people in the country need it to.
Again, I am not interested in changing the name of the Christmas tree, that is a denial of the fact that there are Christians and that they have a tree on Christmas. My point is that we should CELEBRATE the fact that Christians observe Christmas, but ALSO celebrate the customs of others. I am only interested in ALSO including EVERYONE ELSE.
Representation.

 

[1journeyman]

You're dodging the the issues that you yourself brought up....
Anyway, you said "it's the fact that the people are no longer interested in being governed by certain rules that had certain agendas. This country is organic - things are always changing, and at the moment, there is a very noisy outcry for the seperation of things religious from things legal. .
In reality, it's just the opposite. People this season have had enough with the small, but very vocal minority, trying re-write our history, and abolish our traditions and cultures. That's why the tree's original title was brought back, that's why companies are re-doing advertisements this late in the season, etc... The "people" as you referred to them want Christmas to remain Christmas.
As for agendas... you tell me who had the agenda that started this debate? Was it our senate that reinstated the "Christmas tree", or was it the unknown sneak who changed the name a few years ago?
"there is a very noisy outcry for the seperation of things religious from things legal" Interesting statement... so things can't be legal and religious at the same time?
Again, I am not interested in changing the name of the Christmas tree, that is a denial of the fact that there are Christians and that they have a tree on Christmas. My point is that we should CELEBRATE the fact that Christians observe Christmas, but ALSO celebrate the customs of others. I am only interested in ALSO including EVERYONE ELSE.
If the country were founded on the customs of others then that would make sense. But, it wasn't. You can't change that fact.
Where does the madness end? How many thousands of religions are out there? Should we hang a picture of David Koresh (branch Davidian cult) or Joseph Smith (founder of mormons) out on the front lawn? Should we restore all of the Native American festivals and declare them holidays? Let's not forget all of the various European Holidays. After all, many Americans ancestors were immigrants from Europe. Of course, to be fair we have to reach out to oue Asian countrymen, all of those fine folks from Easter Island, etc...
We can't celebrate every significant day in every American's life. Contrary to what you posted earlier, most Americans call themselves Christians, most Americans in the past have called themselves Christians, and that is why the White House celebrates "Christmas". It doesn't exclude anyone, it just doesn't include everyone's way of thinking... There is a difference.

 

[mimzy]

Journeyman, look. We obviously aren't seeing eye to eye.
You think the U.S. is a Christian country, and I think it's a country that happens to be run by a bunch of people, the majority of whom happen to be Christians.
There is such a vast difference between the two that I don't even know where to begin. But the problem is, it only looks like a very subtle shift in perception.
I'm going to just end my peice here and say that perhaps we'd better just agree to disagree.
I don't like to ruffle feathers.
And in the end, we're all people, we're all lucky to be here, and I wish you and everybody only the very best holiday season .... whatever holiday you happen to be celebrating.

 

[darth tang]

Wait a minute. Can someone legal tell you to remove a christmas tree from your lawn?
The White house is the President's house. So if he wants a christmas tree there....can you legally tell him no? It is after all his home.
Just a simple way to look at it.

 

[jdragunas]

i agree with journeyman on this... we are a christian-based nation, how's that (not trying to ruffle feathers). Our founders were protestants that were trying to flee persecution. They agreed that this nation would be free to make it's own decisions about it's religion, but not that they would stop celebrating their christianity. Since 85% of the nation is christian, i'd have to agree that it's a christain nation, because more than the majority is christian... it's not about religion, it's about math.
i agree that it's a waste of our taxpayer money to erect a giant christmas tree. I believe it's also a waste of money to pay actors and actresses millions upon millions of dollars while doctors, firefighters and the police, who save people's lives every day, are paid diddly (not doctors, but they're paid diddly compared to what actors make...). I also believe spending $10,000 on an inaugural ball is a waste of our country's money. i believe communism is perfect on paper, but impractical in real life because everyone always compares themselves to eachother. "why does that janitor make as much as me when i'm a doctor? I think he should make less, or i should make more". It's ridiculous!!! I believe everyone in the world should get what they need to survive, and that other people shouldn't get mad about that. i believe we are a doomed species because of all those things...

 

[dennycrane]

"The seperation between Church and State may indeed not be in the first amendment, but somebody said it at some point, and it stuck. And the people have clung to it. A nation is nothing but its people"
Huh? So, if our laws don't say it, but enough people chant it like a mantra then it must be true?

A lot of you don't know how our laws actually work or how the Constitution effects the people. That's not a cut at anyone - most people don't. It might be easier to think of our laws - statutes and even the Constitution - as skeletons for the meaning of the laws. The court system interprets what these laws mean and apply that to factual situations and thus they are defined (at least to the facts). These holdings are usually written in cases that pertain to a particular statute or amendment or article. Several holdings begin to define what the law actualy is. Right to privacy is the best example - nowhere will you find even the word written in the constitution, however a judge deterined at some point (I forget the case) that the 5th Amendment and 14th (I think) as interpreted by the Supreme Court gives the citizen an expectation of privacy from the gov.
I've never met someone who was oppressed by a tree or felt betrayed by the United States for having God on the money. I know they are out there, with very little to do in their lives and with probably a sizable amount of disposable income (or backing from the ACLU).
Take God off the money or leave God on it; call it a Christmas, Holiday or Pine tree for all I care. Nothing American is being eroded here, but what is being eroded at an alarming rate is this country's ability to not sweat the small stuff. Very soon this country will be so uptight from having to be so sensitive to every overly sensitive extremist (and I'm including those VERY Christian Christians, some athiests, some environmentalists - basically anyone who would rather protest on a picket line than go get a job) that it will culturally implode on itself. Nobody likes to walk around on egg shells.
And to start your argument for spending conteol with the government's tree is a day late and dollar short. You'd have a seizure if you knew what stupid things your National Government is spending your tax dollars on - just read the next bill passed and all the special interest groups that are getting dollars. And you know what? We can afford it.
RELAX

 

[darth tang]

Originally Posted by Dogstar
The point is that the Goverment should not be choosing only one religion and putting it in anyones eyes. Spending tax money on religion on Goverment property, And yes that includes public schools. Unless its done with equality to all religions. Like its done at Arlington Cemetery.
Its speech, so what is the Goverment saying buy only chooseing the one religion and honoring it. Yes, it is a Christmas tree and we all know what it means....Buy calling it a holiday tree still dosen't make it right...A rose is a rose...

What single religion is the christmas tree representing here? That is my question. The tree is viewed as a symbol to Jesus Christ by some. Yet Jesus Christ is mentioned in many religions. So how is this singling out ONE religion. Even the muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet.
I have also seen some compare this to the civil rights movement of the 60's stating at the time it wasn't popular and only a minority wanted it. There is one major difference here though. The Tree does NOT hinder quality of life or violate basic civil rights. It doesn't FORCE the religion on you. It doesn't STOP you from practicing your religion. Why is this an issue. You guys talk of tax dollars wasted on buying the tree. I feel we waste more tax dollars arguing this crap in courts and giving press conferences about it. There are better things to argue about than the name of a tree.

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
Wait a minute. Can someone legal tell you to remove a christmas tree from your lawn?
The White house is the President's house. So if he wants a christmas tree there....can you legally tell him no? It is after all his home.
Just a simple way to look at it.
And that is what I have been trying to say by saying that a Christian President will put up a Christmas Tree, whereas a president of another religion, if we ever have one, will not likely do it.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Mimzy
Journeyman, look. We obviously aren't seeing eye to eye....
I don't like to ruffle feathers....
No feathers ruffled.

I think debate is a healthy thing, especially when it can be done in a way that is respectful with one another.
I hope I made the "Christian nation" point clear. I'm not he one who started that, I'm amazed you've never heard the USA referred to as a "Christian Nation" before. Frankly, I hate that expression as it makes Christianity look bad.
A close examination of the history of our nation will show a steady decline in the rights of Christians. Denny made a great point by bringing the courts into the discussion. The skeleton of the law is there, and over time judges have "read between the lines" in a way that I feel has weakened our country. Rather than interpretting the law, judges have made their own opinions law. For the first time in my limited lifetime we're seeing a genuine backlash as Americans protest the secularism that has taken over Christmas.

 

[jdragunas]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
No feathers ruffled.

I think debate is a healthy thing, especially when it can be done in a way that is respectful with one another...
i completey agree!!!

 

[reefraff]

The following is interesting given the social attitude of the nation at the time, the book quoted was written in the 50's. For better or worse we see many of these goals being acheived.
This was read into the congressional record:
Current Communist Goals
EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Thursday, January 10, 1963
Mr. HERLONG. Mr. Speaker, Mrs. Patricia Nordman of De Land, Fla., is an ardent and articulate opponent of communism, and until recently published the De Land Courier, which she dedicated to the purpose of alerting the public to the dangers of communism in America.
At Mrs. Nordman's request, I include in the RECORD, under unanimous consent, the following "Current Communist Goals," which she identifies as an excerpt from "The

[hr]
Communist," by Cleon Skousen:
[From "The ----- Communist," by Cleon Skousen]
CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS
1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.
4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.
6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.
7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.
8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)
12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.
13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.
14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.
15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
18. Gain control of all student newspapers.
19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.
20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.
21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.
22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."
23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."
24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.
25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."
27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."
28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."
29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

 

[reefraff]

Continued
31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.
32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.
34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.
36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.
37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.
38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].
39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.
40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.
41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.
42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.
43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.
44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.
45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.

 

[scubadoo]

it is a simple concept..a tree decoarted at this time of year is defined as a Christmas tree. Do non-Christians or others put up a decorated tree and call it a Holiday tree? As long as it is a decoarted tree at this time of year it is a Christmas tree by definition.
I could care less if it is offensive to some....I am convinced most of the whiners are not offended......possibly living in fear of lossing tenure.

 

[jones]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
I have also seen some compare this to the civil rights movement of the 60's stating at the time it wasn't popular and only a minority wanted it. There is one major difference here though.
Taken out of context, that example was intended to be taken in a general response to the idea that simply, majority rules, so if there are more, then it must be so. The two things weren't really being compared with each other.

 

[darth tang]

Originally Posted by jones
Taken out of context, that example was intended to be taken in a general response to the idea that simply, majority rules, so if there are more, then it must be so. The two things weren't really being compared with each other.
Ok, using this criteria, what happens with the presidency? A majority rules approach is taken with NO consideration or consolation for the minority. In a democracy, or our case, a representive republic, tha majority rules approach applies in all aspects with the exception of laws. And even then a majority can change the law unless it conflicts with basic human rights. The President has a the right to put a christmas tree on the front lawn of the white house as long as he resides there. It is his house.
To go further, how does a christmas tree infringe on another person's freedom of religion. How does it infringe on their basic human rights? How does it infringe on their civil rights? How does changing the name stop this? If the tree represents a religion, the changing of the name WILL NOT change what it represents. Just what it is called. So again, why change the name, nothing is accomplished besides causing a debate over something as trivial as toe lint.

 

[jdragunas]

darth tang, have i ever told you you're my hero?

 

[darth tang]

A couple times...but you can tell me again.

 

[jdragunas]

did you ever know that you're my hero?
you're everything i would like to be!
I could fly high as an eagle,
with you as the wind beneath my wings...

 

[michelle l]

Originally Posted by jdragunas
darth tang, have i ever told you you're my hero?
Darth Tang, you're my hero too. I've just never told ya!!

 

[darth tang]

Just a couple more people and I will be able start my on cult like David Koresh.....awesome!!!