hypo journal

[lpuzon]

done with my WC (arnd 11 or so..)! :jumping:
after 30 mins, took my water parameters: (i know it's too soon after WC, but i just tried...)
ammo 0
trite 0
ph 8.2
trate i'm saying 80
spgh .009 (refracto) .008 (hydro)
temp 78
i did 10g, i ran out of RO water. will do another one on friday. probably 15g or 20g.
i read and acknowledged hipsterism's post, and i thank you for that!

i'd like to say that everybody's input in this thread is very, very much appreciated, considering that you all are taking time to read and even help me with my course right now. all of these weighs all the same value to me. thanks guys!!!

here's what i'm going to do from the latests inputs.....please still guide me as i will go through it.......

1. i'd give 1-2 more weeks for the hypo. giving considerations that my uv is barely a week of usage, and same with the refracto.
2. if (crossfingers.) a little change or no change happens, i would return my spgh back to normal. (with regular water changes)
3. i'll do take out my CCs, which is started already last night. and will continue every water change.
i'm also thinking, could i have fed too much feeder shrimps to the fishes, and those residues are being converted to nitrates??
kent rxp will be returned to our lfs tomorrow.
will post new water parameters tomorrow, too.
thanks,
liz

 

[lion_crazz]

I got it that you believe Hypo is the only way to treat ick, but I think you are misleading her if you state that this is the only effective treatment. Hypo is no better at curing ick than copper, SP or any of the other treatments.
I will say it again. Hypo is the most effective way to treat ich in this scenario. But before I jump into that, I will tell you why your other suggestions WILL NOT work.
Let's get the facts on the table first.
1. Ich is an invertebrate.
2. Copper kills all invertebrates.
3. Thus, copper kills ich.
In no way am I denying that copper CAN kill ich.
More facts:
1. The lower the specific gravity, the less ich will reproduce IF it is in the water.
2. At 1.009, ich can no longer reproduce. Thus, once the life cycle of the ich is done, the ich is done. The life cycle of ich is roughly 23-26 days, thus 3-4 weeks. This is the recommended time for hyposalinity.
Now, the question is, why should a person use hyposalinity over copper. We have figured out that both means will kill ich.
Hyposalinity should be used over copper because copper will actually stress a fish (especially if not dosed properly), whereas hyposalinity (for a short amount of time - 3 to 6 weeks) will not. Copper is actually detrimental to sensitive fish like tangs, butterflies, angels, and puffers. It can cause them stress, which will weaken their immune system. This is why hyposalinity should be used over copper.
Then you suggested things like Stop Parasite, Kick Ich, RxP, and other "reef-safe" medications. First, let's ask the question, what makes these products "reef-safe"? They are reef-safe because they claim NOT to kill invertebrates. Going back to what we discussed before, ich is an invertebrate. These products do not kill invertebrates. It would be impossible for these products to kill one invertebrate and not the other. They are reef-safe because they do not kill any invertebrates.
What these products do is speed up the slime coat production of the fish, which causes the ich to detach from the fish. Once this occurs, the fish has a better chance of building its immune system to fight off future infestations.
If one thing is agreed upon the water quality is the key. Regular water changes following the parasites life cycle is good a treatment and any of the one suggested here in this thread.
I think you have a misconception of why water quality is key. Water quality is key because in poor water quality, a fish's immune system is being weakend. If a fish has a weak immune system, he has less of a chance of fighting off the parasite while the parasite is hanging on for dear life in hyposalinity.
Now that is misleading, you will never get rid of the ick it needs to be managed by water changes and water quality. She is showing nitrates 80 ppm, do you think the fish are a little stressed?
Ich can be eliminated from a closed system. This is why expert and experienced aquarists use quarantine tanks. Upon purchasing a new fish, they bring it home and put it in the quarantine tank for 3 to 6 weeks. They view the fish very closely in the quarantine tank, and upon first notice of seeing one spot of ich, they perform hyposalinity or use copper (on fish that are not sensitive). By doing this, they automatically stop ich from being carried to the closed system. If this is done with every new purchase, it is close to impossible to introduce ich to the display tank. The only way you could do it is if a person did not perform the quarantine properly to the point where they did not view the fish close enough.
In 80 ppm of nitrates, the fish are indeed stressed. They are stressed, which weakens thier immune system. When their immune system is weakend, the fish stand less of a chance at getting the ich off of their body. If they have a strong immune system, they are producing a slime coat fast enough to get rid of the ich. This keeps pushing the ich off, and eventully, it goes extinct in hyposalinity because it cannot reproduce to make a new generation of ich.

 

[lion_crazz]

Hence the water changes and vacuuming the substrate. On this one I am with you replace the CC and you need a whole lot more live rock than 25 pds for a 72 gal tank. More like a 100 pds that will also keep the nitrates down.
Water changes and vacuuming the substrate will get the ich out, since ich reproduces in the substrate, but it would be close to impossible to get all the ich out because some of it is still attached to the fish and some of it is reproducing in the rocks. The only way you get rid of it is to KILL it with copper, or to stop the reproduction of it with hyposalinity. You will not be able to physically remove all of it by doing water changes. It's impossible.
Look I am not trying to causing an up roar but this has been going for around five weeks and she hasn't had success.
She hasn't had success because she has only had a working and accurate refractometer for less than a week. Hyposalinity takes 3 to 4 weeks with a very accurate refractometer.
Is there anything that I am unclear on? I will clarify what I said if neccessary.

 

[lion_crazz]

ammo 0
trite 0
ph 8.2
trate i'm saying 80
spgh .009 (refracto) .008 (hydro)
temp 78
The nitrates need to come down so the fish can bring their immune system up to fight off the attacking ich.
1. i'd give 1-2 more weeks for the hypo. giving considerations that my uv is barely a week of usage, and same with the refracto.
I forgot to mention - leave the UV on 24 hours of the day. This will help a lot.
Also, remember that hyposalinity takes 3 to 4 weeks. If you are not going to do it the full time, you might as well just use copper and take your chances. Copper will be faster, but it is more dangerous to the fish.
2. if (crossfingers.) a little change or no change happens, i would return my spgh back to normal. (with regular water changes)
I do not want to tell you what to do, as this is your tank, but I am just letting you know that the ich will thank you by continuing to reproduce if you give them better conditions to do so. Bringing the SG will allow them the right salt level to breed and reproduce. They cannot reproduce at 1.009. Once they live their life cycle, they become extinct because they cannot produce offspring to carry on the species of invertebrate.
3. i'll do take out my CCs, which is started already last night. and will continue every water change.
Very good! Just remember, do not take too much out at once, as you do not want a spike in your ammonia and nitrite.
Keep me posted and good luck!

 

[hipsterism]

Originally Posted by lion_crazz
Hipsterism, this reply is not intended to argue or cut you down but your knowledge on the subject is a little flawed. .
Lion_crazz I do not believe you mean what you write or you would not have needed three posts to point by point tell me I do not know squat. It is okay I understand that I am at a 1 to 1000 deficit on posts with you. However, I don’t think that implies the ratio at which our knowledge of fish differs.
My point for Hypo was simply this: it is no more successful a treatment then Copper, SP or any other junk that sells on the market today. And if you observe your fish, as most of us here do, on a daily basis if the fish comes down with ick it can be treated with simple water changes, cleaning of the substrate, an a increase of the water temperature.
There is no empirical data supporting your method or mine for that fact. Hypo just happens to be one of common practice. Why this thread intrigued me; I thought someone was actually applying scientific methodology to their treatment of their fish with ick. If you do the math on the life cycle of ick when in the tomont stage let’s say worse case and each cyst produces 300 theronts and you have 50 of those cysts. Your getting 15000 free swimmers and your fish gets 50 more or let’s say 100 more spots well that is an infection rate of less then 1 percent
That doesn’t account for size of tank or quantity of stock. So if the fish or fishes are not totally infested, the underlining causes should be addressed, usually poor water quality. This also addresses the issue of reducing the number of parasites, and improving the fish’s health. I am well aware of the underling benefit of waters changes. If a fish is healthy ick is not an issue.
Nitrates at 80ppm with ick in the system will cause secondary infection and that will kill your fish
I am not apposed to any of the suggested treatments. However, the degree of attention required to make them successful lends itself to failure. I believe the over all goals can be accomplished in an easier manner.
If she can follow your very clear instructions ( I am glad I could inspire you to be concise) and keep a journal of her observations it would be interesting to hear about the results.

 

[lion_crazz]

Hipsterism, I never once said I was better or more knowledgable than you. I certainly would never claim that I knew more because of my post count. Steve Weast has a post count of maybe a few hundred on this website, yet I would give him the benefit of the doubt in each and every discussion he posts in.
I do know the facts of the situation, however, which I clearly addressed above. They did not work into your theory, so it seemed that you just ignored them.
I used one of my three posts to reply to Liz, and the other was a short continuation of the first.

 

[hipsterism]

Originally Posted by lion_crazz
I do know the facts of the situation, however, which I clearly addressed above. They did not work into your theory, so it seemed that you just ignored them.
Dude!!! That statement is a total red herring

It was not I who stated " I don't have time to read the thread can you tell me what is the problem? Then you suggest that it might be velvet because the hypo isn't working. Then go and say she isn't doing it right spend more money on refractor meter."
Now that is some paraphrasing from several posts but I think it makes the point.
Stop espousing your exclusive knowledge to a solution that is more internet lore than fact. Show me a study that used hypo then did an autopsy on the affected fish and showed they were cured. You have no scientific data for you method of treatment.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by hipsterism
Dude!!! That statement is a total red herring

It was not I who stated " I don't have time to read the thread can you tell me what is the problem? Then you suggest that it might be velvet because the hypo isn't working. Then go and say she isn't doing it right spend more money on refractor meter."
Now that is some paraphrasing from several posts but I think it makes the point.
Stop espousing your exclusive knowledge to a solution that is more internet lore than fact. Show me a study that used hypo then did an autopsy on the affected fish and showed they were cured. You have no scientific data for you method of treatment.
Stop being so caustic, next time I post just ignore it. You definitely don’t respect my opinion and I believe you’re myopic

Whoa, that was way out of hand. First off, I have done hypo and had wonderfull results with it. Second, that is not the correct order of quotes from Lion_Crazz so perhaps you should actually read this thread. Third your method of removing ich from a system makes no sense. Water changes will NEVER remove the ich from the system. However if the ich are unable to breed it only makes logical sense that they would then become extict from the system.

 

[lion_crazz]

Whether Liz was doing hyposalinity or not, I would recommend her to use a refractometer. It is simply INCREDIBLY more accurate than a $8 piece of plastic.
My plate is pretty full right now, and I really did not have time to read 70-100 posts. However, I did want to offer Liz my support if it was possible.
My knowledge on ich is not exclusive in the least. If you would like scientific data that supports my claims, please see the following articles that involve experiments which were done by scientists:
-"Treating Saltwater Ich without Medication" by T.D. Bartelme in Tropical Fish Hobbyist (January issue, 2001)
-Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment by Edward J. Noga (pages 97-99, 282-283, and 286-288)
-"Low Salinity as Quarantine and Treatment of Marine Fish Parasites" by Randy Kollman in SeaScope (volume 15, spring of 1998)
Also please note that personal attacks and rude remarks will not be tolerated here. There is no need to attack an individual when having a discussion.

 

[hipsterism]

Originally Posted by lion_crazz
Also please note that personal attacks and rude remarks will not be tolerated here. There is no need to attack an individual when having a discussion.
Then you should stop attacking me. As far as the discussion part I have tried that and it really seems to be one sided. I have pulled down all the posts I could including the one you had edited to finish this silliness.
Have a nice day .I hope you can be magnanimous and let it end. :scared:

 

[hipsterism]

Originally Posted by lion_crazz
Also please note that personal attacks and rude remarks will not be tolerated here. There is no need to attack an individual when having a discussion.
Hey Lion_crazz take your moderator skills and stick them where the sun don't shine. Now that is rude! deleting my posts so you don't look bad. Cancel my account while your at it a-hole.

 

[lpuzon]

hmmm...i read all the posts....sorry that happened. i'll leave it as it is.
just a quickie tonight, i woke up this morning, finding my pakistan dead. remember i mentioned about the pakis kinda swollen on her body, and the scales on "upright", and falling off? this is actually giving me goosebumps, coz all her scales from the right side fell off. i wonder what happened to her......
i am doing 20g WC tomorrow, or larger. i'm worried wth my water params tonight since one of them died....
i promise to post a longer one tomorrow...

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by lpuzon
hmmm...i read all the posts....sorry that happened. i'll leave it as it is.
just a quickie tonight, i woke up this morning, finding my pakistan dead. remember i mentioned about the pakis kinda swollen on her body, and the scales on "upright", and falling off? this is actually giving me goosebumps, coz all her scales from the right side fell off. i wonder what happened to her......
i am doing 20g WC tomorrow, or larger. i'm worried wth my water params tonight since one of them died....
i promise to post a longer one tomorrow...
Sorry Liz, I missed the upright scales thing, but a bloated body and upright scalest sounds like dropsey to me. Have you gotten your water levels in check yet?

 

[lion_crazz]

Liz, I am sorry for side-tracking your post. I simply did not want you to receive wrong information and do something that would degress your situation. You have come this far, and turning back now would be pointless.
Pakistan butterflies are very sensitive fish. If any of them are not going to make it, it is going to be that one. To be quite honest, I am surprised it lived at all with your nitrate level where it is. Even the hardiest of butterflies do not usually tolerate much more than 20 or 30 nitrates.
Continue to post and I will be here to provide guidance.

 

[lpuzon]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
Sorry Liz, I missed the upright scales thing, but that sounds like dropsey to me. Have you gotten your water levels in check yet?
thanks! dropsey? what is that?

 

[lpuzon]

Originally Posted by lion_crazz
Liz, I am sorry for side-tracking your post. I simply did not want you to receive wrong information and do something that would degress your situation. You have come this far, and turning back now would be pointless.
Pakistan butterflies are very sensitive fish. If any of them are not going to make it, it is going to be that one. To be quite honest, I am surprised it lived at all with your nitrate level where it is. Even the hardiest of butterflies do not usually tolerate much more than 20 or 30 nitrates.
Continue to post and I will be here to provide guidance.
don't worry bout it, lion! no harm done! i actually feel a lot of gratitude by you always checking up on me. it really means a lot....

oh yeah, i have come this far, and whenever i see all my fishes downstairs, even if i felt to just give this whole thing up, those fishes give me all the strength i need. they need me, u know. so, i'll fight the fight they have!

 

[lion_crazz]

Doctor Fenner provides:
"Dropsy is a name given to any disease that causes a fish to swell so much that the scales no longer lay flat against the body of the fish. By looking down on a fish you can easily spot a case of dropsy. This is a very difficult disease to treat effectively. Daily doses of erythromycin, daily water changes, and exclusive feeding of medicated food has proven to be the most effective treatment."
Dropsy is a stress-related disease usually caused by poor water quality - hence the reason that the butterfly got it.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by lpuzon
don't worry bout it, lion! no harm done! i actually feel a lot of gratitude by you always checking up on me. it really means a lot....

oh yeah, i have come this far, and whenever i see all my fishes downstairs, even if i felt to just give this whole thing up, those fishes give me all the strength i need. they need me, u know. so, i'll fight the fight they have!
You have a great additude tword this, don't give up, once your issues are resolved and you qt ALL new arivals you will love your tank more than you can imagine!!!! Remember we have all been there and have all made mistakes!

 

[lpuzon]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
You have a great additude tword this, don't give up, once your issues are resolved and you qt ALL new arivals you will love your tank more than you can imagine!!!! Remember we have all been there and have all made mistakes!
thanks sepulatian! i can't lose anymore of them, i really feel bad.
dropsy, huh? sheez... sounds really creepy, and looks creepy if u ask me! i knew she wouldn't make it. i mean, i am looking at her all the time, and she gets swelled up each time. i really have to do the WC tomorrow, whatever happens.....

i checked on the WC tonight:
everything's fine, EXCEPT the trates. it's still 80, but i really think, it's higher than that! esp now, 1 died.....
i am thinking, after my WC tomorrow, i think i shld go ask for a maintainance. i mean, our lfs do aqaurium maintainance. i'll probably ask them to do 2 series of cleaning my aquarium. at least, they could do it more properly. at least, that could start me up again....

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by lpuzon
thanks sepulatian! i can't lose anymore of them, i really feel bad.
dropsy, huh? sheez... sounds really creepy, and looks creepy if u ask me! i knew she wouldn't make it. i mean, i am looking at her all the time, and she gets swelled up each time. i really have to do the WC tomorrow, whatever happens.....

i checked on the WC tonight:
everything's fine, EXCEPT the trates. it's still 80, but i really think, it's higher than that! esp now, 1 died.....
i am thinking, after my WC tomorrow, i think i shld go ask for a maintainance. i mean, our lfs do aqaurium maintainance. i'll probably ask them to do 2 series of cleaning my aquarium. at least, they could do it more properly. at least, that could start me up again....
why pay them, as Lion_crazz said earlier, it is the crushed coral that is causing the high nitrates. All of those little nooks and crannies hold the good biological filtration when you first start out, but what is the final stage of biological filtration??? NITRATES!!!! Start scooping out the cc, and you can add LS after you are done with hypo, or if you want regular sand then you can add it after the cc is out. It is in so many outdated books to use cc as substrate. It is realy good at first because all of the beneficial bacteria colonizes nicely in there, but in 6 months to a year you are left with uncontrolable nitrates. Something to think about.