jennythebugg
Active Member
mimz i'm sorry you are struggling internally right now
I hate the abbreviation...X-mas....
- Thread starter groupergenius
- Start date
yearofthenick
Active Member
Actually, the symbol X is greek for Chi, which means Christ. So, in all actuality, you're just using a greek symbol to abbreviate Christ. I see it not just with x-mas, but also with x-ians (Christians). The latter of the two doesn't look too flattering which is why personally I never use it.
yearofthenick
Active Member
Originally Posted by Mimzy
http:///forum/post/2831363
......I am currently having my own personal crisis of faith. I am deciding, at this time, whether or not I wish to continue being a religious person. whether or not I actually believe in G-d, and how I will or will not be doing exactly this; integrating my faith in to my every day life and my future.
every one goes through it. some people more than once, some people every day, some people have an easier time than others.
I am having a hard time.
::sigh::
I agree that everyone struggles with faith... it's faith. If it were fact, there would be no struggle, just insanity if you didn't believe in facts. That's the beauty of faith... the truth is out there (no X-Files pun intended) but it's ultimately up to you.
Why do you doubt? If you don't feel comfortable sharing I won't bring up the question again. However, I ask because it's good to discuss stuff like this. Maybe we can offer a different perspective on things. Some people take their faith extremely privately, so I will totally understand if you don't want to share.
P.S. I'm kosher, but just because pigs are the most disgusting animal on this planet. I'm even thinking about eating only chicken from now on because I watched the gory movies on the PETA website. Some of that stuff will haunt my dreams for years to come.
http:///forum/post/2831363
......I am currently having my own personal crisis of faith. I am deciding, at this time, whether or not I wish to continue being a religious person. whether or not I actually believe in G-d, and how I will or will not be doing exactly this; integrating my faith in to my every day life and my future.
every one goes through it. some people more than once, some people every day, some people have an easier time than others.
I am having a hard time.
::sigh::
I agree that everyone struggles with faith... it's faith. If it were fact, there would be no struggle, just insanity if you didn't believe in facts. That's the beauty of faith... the truth is out there (no X-Files pun intended) but it's ultimately up to you.
Why do you doubt? If you don't feel comfortable sharing I won't bring up the question again. However, I ask because it's good to discuss stuff like this. Maybe we can offer a different perspective on things. Some people take their faith extremely privately, so I will totally understand if you don't want to share.
P.S. I'm kosher, but just because pigs are the most disgusting animal on this planet. I'm even thinking about eating only chicken from now on because I watched the gory movies on the PETA website. Some of that stuff will haunt my dreams for years to come.
cranberry
Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2831393
IP.S. I'm kosher, but just because pigs are the most disgusting animal on this planet. I'm even thinking about eating only chicken from now on because I watched the gory movies on the PETA website. Some of that stuff will haunt my dreams for years to come.
Ummmm..... avoiding pork does not mean you are practicing kosher eating habits. Chicken and beef can also be non-kosher. It has to be slaughtered according to Jewish law and has very particular "procedures" in the killing of an animal. And kosher does not just apply to meat....
You must have not watched videos that "process" chickens because their "mode of exit" is just as brutal as a cow.
http:///forum/post/2831393
IP.S. I'm kosher, but just because pigs are the most disgusting animal on this planet. I'm even thinking about eating only chicken from now on because I watched the gory movies on the PETA website. Some of that stuff will haunt my dreams for years to come.
Ummmm..... avoiding pork does not mean you are practicing kosher eating habits. Chicken and beef can also be non-kosher. It has to be slaughtered according to Jewish law and has very particular "procedures" in the killing of an animal. And kosher does not just apply to meat....
You must have not watched videos that "process" chickens because their "mode of exit" is just as brutal as a cow.
cowfishrule
Active Member
i was born and raised roman catholic, but as i got older i decided to no longer practice or recognize religion.
to me, christmas, or the short-hand xmas, is not a religious holiday, but rather a "time of the year". i see chanukah (sp) as a part of christmas. its a season of giving, a season of happiness, a season of festivities, a season for being with and realizing really what is most important in your life: family.
to me, its the season between fall and winter.
i know that its based historically on religion, but again, i do not aknowledge my religion any more.
ps- before this thread turns into the obligitory "christmas" vs "holiday", i just want to say i have no problem typing xmas, just as i have no problem typing OP, IMHO, LOL, etc.
... just saying.
to me, christmas, or the short-hand xmas, is not a religious holiday, but rather a "time of the year". i see chanukah (sp) as a part of christmas. its a season of giving, a season of happiness, a season of festivities, a season for being with and realizing really what is most important in your life: family.
to me, its the season between fall and winter.
i know that its based historically on religion, but again, i do not aknowledge my religion any more.
ps- before this thread turns into the obligitory "christmas" vs "holiday", i just want to say i have no problem typing xmas, just as i have no problem typing OP, IMHO, LOL, etc.
... just saying.
t316
Active Member
No Mimzy, I wasn't trying to stir you up (and I know you wouldn't spit in anyone's face). Actually, I'm a "little" familiar with your Jewish Holiday. I had a roomate in college and remember the small gifts each day vs. one big day, etc.
And I know that a lot of people just use the X as a harmless shortcut, but I was just pointing out that to some Christians, it's a symbol of disrespect. I hate it when stores use it too. I would rather just see/hear "Happy Holidays" vs. X'ing out part of the word Christmas.
And I know that a lot of people just use the X as a harmless shortcut, but I was just pointing out that to some Christians, it's a symbol of disrespect. I hate it when stores use it too. I would rather just see/hear "Happy Holidays" vs. X'ing out part of the word Christmas.
mimzy
Active Member
Originally Posted by jennythebugg
http:///forum/post/2831373
mimz i'm sorry you are struggling internally right now
LoL oh it's ok, its nothing new, and it gives me somethin' 2think about
http:///forum/post/2831373
mimz i'm sorry you are struggling internally right now
LoL oh it's ok, its nothing new, and it gives me somethin' 2think about
mimzy
Active Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/2831407
Ummmm..... avoiding pork does not mean you are practicing kosher eating habits. Chicken and beef can also be non-kosher. It has to be slaughtered according to Jewish law and has very particular "procedures" in the killing of an animal. And kosher does not just apply to meat....
You must have not watched videos that "process" chickens because their "mode of exit" is just as brutal as a cow.
Dude. You are the 1st person I've met on the interwebs who doesn't claim that Kosher means it's been "blessed by a Rabbi." Where are you and how can I send you this massive grateful hug I've got for you?
http:///forum/post/2831407
Ummmm..... avoiding pork does not mean you are practicing kosher eating habits. Chicken and beef can also be non-kosher. It has to be slaughtered according to Jewish law and has very particular "procedures" in the killing of an animal. And kosher does not just apply to meat....
You must have not watched videos that "process" chickens because their "mode of exit" is just as brutal as a cow.
Dude. You are the 1st person I've met on the interwebs who doesn't claim that Kosher means it's been "blessed by a Rabbi." Where are you and how can I send you this massive grateful hug I've got for you?
mimzy
Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2831393
I agree that everyone struggles with faith... it's faith. If it were fact, there would be no struggle, just insanity if you didn't believe in facts. That's the beauty of faith... the truth is out there (no X-Files pun intended) but it's ultimately up to you.
I have to be honest with you; this is the first time a Christian has come to me with this point of view. It's quite refreshing. Maybe I just don't know enough Christians well educated in Christianity. This has been my point the entire time. People in my community try to come at me from all angles; How can you not SEE that G-d created the universe??? Look at the bird! look at the human body! How can that intricacy and beauty be a MISTAKE??? Blah blah blah.
But it's not just that; it's also the PEOPLE who PRACTICE the religion.... a lot of them are massive, massive poopyheads. There is a whole rash of holier-than-thou-ness in my community and I'm so sick of it I'm fit to be tied. I know this exists in every religion... and that's just making it worse.
I'm just coming to see religion as more of a tool for certain people to control and gain wealth and for other people to use as a tool of exclusion and to make themselves feel better about their lives. Too many people have tainted it. It's not really about G-d anymore, but about "how much more religious am I than you? How much more special am I than you?" Blah blah blah again.
At this point I call myself a "millitant agnostic." I don't know if there's a G-d, and you can't know either. LoL. I'm relatively comfortable here, but I know there will be further searching. We'll see where it goes. One day at a time, y'know?
As for being Kosher; pple make all sorts of wild claims; it's healthier, it tastes better.... more blah blah blah, but there is certainly truth in the fact that Kosher animals are slaughtered quickly and humanely; obsessively so. The blade is inspected before and after EVERY SINGLE CUT, and if there is any nick, any deviation in the metal, it is rehoned and resharpened or totally replaced. There must be one swift cut and one cut only, directly to the windpipe so there is no pain and no prolonged suffering. It's still killing an animal for human consumption (sorry PETA, you freakin' weirdos), but it's decidedly less "industrial" than some other methods.
http:///forum/post/2831393
I agree that everyone struggles with faith... it's faith. If it were fact, there would be no struggle, just insanity if you didn't believe in facts. That's the beauty of faith... the truth is out there (no X-Files pun intended) but it's ultimately up to you.
I have to be honest with you; this is the first time a Christian has come to me with this point of view. It's quite refreshing. Maybe I just don't know enough Christians well educated in Christianity. This has been my point the entire time. People in my community try to come at me from all angles; How can you not SEE that G-d created the universe??? Look at the bird! look at the human body! How can that intricacy and beauty be a MISTAKE??? Blah blah blah.
But it's not just that; it's also the PEOPLE who PRACTICE the religion.... a lot of them are massive, massive poopyheads. There is a whole rash of holier-than-thou-ness in my community and I'm so sick of it I'm fit to be tied. I know this exists in every religion... and that's just making it worse.
I'm just coming to see religion as more of a tool for certain people to control and gain wealth and for other people to use as a tool of exclusion and to make themselves feel better about their lives. Too many people have tainted it. It's not really about G-d anymore, but about "how much more religious am I than you? How much more special am I than you?" Blah blah blah again.
At this point I call myself a "millitant agnostic." I don't know if there's a G-d, and you can't know either. LoL. I'm relatively comfortable here, but I know there will be further searching. We'll see where it goes. One day at a time, y'know?
As for being Kosher; pple make all sorts of wild claims; it's healthier, it tastes better.... more blah blah blah, but there is certainly truth in the fact that Kosher animals are slaughtered quickly and humanely; obsessively so. The blade is inspected before and after EVERY SINGLE CUT, and if there is any nick, any deviation in the metal, it is rehoned and resharpened or totally replaced. There must be one swift cut and one cut only, directly to the windpipe so there is no pain and no prolonged suffering. It's still killing an animal for human consumption (sorry PETA, you freakin' weirdos), but it's decidedly less "industrial" than some other methods.
groupergenius
Active Member
Wow, didn't mean to spark such contraversy.
Personally, and this is my perception, The birth of Christ is the celebration of Christmas. The tree, Jolly St. Nick, reindeer, and most of that jazz....I don't get. I also don't get the association with a flippin' rabbit with eggs representing the rebirth of Christ.
As for the Jewish religion...Mimzy, correct me if I'm wrong. Basically the only thing that separates Christians and Jews is the New Testament. Judaism has not seen the first coming of the saviour?? Does the Jewish faith not follow the Old Testament?
Personally, and this is my perception, The birth of Christ is the celebration of Christmas. The tree, Jolly St. Nick, reindeer, and most of that jazz....I don't get. I also don't get the association with a flippin' rabbit with eggs representing the rebirth of Christ.
As for the Jewish religion...Mimzy, correct me if I'm wrong. Basically the only thing that separates Christians and Jews is the New Testament. Judaism has not seen the first coming of the saviour?? Does the Jewish faith not follow the Old Testament?
coral keeper
Active Member
Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2831811
Personally, and this is my perception, The birth of Christ is the celebration of Christmas. The tree, Jolly St. Nick, reindeer, and most of that jazz....I don't get. I also don't get the association with a flippin' rabbit with eggs representing the rebirth of Christ.
+1
http:///forum/post/2831811
Personally, and this is my perception, The birth of Christ is the celebration of Christmas. The tree, Jolly St. Nick, reindeer, and most of that jazz....I don't get. I also don't get the association with a flippin' rabbit with eggs representing the rebirth of Christ.
+1
mimzy
Active Member
Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2831811
Wow, didn't mean to spark such contraversy.
Personally, and this is my perception, The birth of Christ is the celebration of Christmas. The tree, Jolly St. Nick, reindeer, and most of that jazz....I don't get. I also don't get the association with a flippin' rabbit with eggs representing the rebirth of Christ.
As for the Jewish religion...Mimzy, correct me if I'm wrong. Basically the only thing that separates Christians and Jews is the New Testament. Judaism has not seen the first coming of the saviour?? Does the Jewish faith not follow the Old Testament?
uh... if you can call the entire New Testament an "only," then... yes, that's the "only" thing that differentiates Jews from Christians.
I'm sorry to laugh but that's just really funny. The New Testament and Jesus and his teachings are the greatest religious divide you could possibly think of. It's a massive, massive difference. It has made Jews and Christians two completely different religions.
And you are correct, Jews are indeed still waiting for their Messiah. Jews do follow the Old Testament; we call it the Torah. We follow the Old Testament in conjunction with the rest of our cannon; the Gemara, the Talmud and the Midrash; books written by ancient sages who lived during the times of the Temples in Jerusalem. Judaism, contrary to popular belief, is not based solely on the Torah; it is based on the Rabbinical interpretation of it. Huge difference there.
...sorry to hijack your thread there Grouper.... I can start a new one if you'd like
http:///forum/post/2831811
Wow, didn't mean to spark such contraversy.
Personally, and this is my perception, The birth of Christ is the celebration of Christmas. The tree, Jolly St. Nick, reindeer, and most of that jazz....I don't get. I also don't get the association with a flippin' rabbit with eggs representing the rebirth of Christ.
As for the Jewish religion...Mimzy, correct me if I'm wrong. Basically the only thing that separates Christians and Jews is the New Testament. Judaism has not seen the first coming of the saviour?? Does the Jewish faith not follow the Old Testament?
uh... if you can call the entire New Testament an "only," then... yes, that's the "only" thing that differentiates Jews from Christians.
I'm sorry to laugh but that's just really funny. The New Testament and Jesus and his teachings are the greatest religious divide you could possibly think of. It's a massive, massive difference. It has made Jews and Christians two completely different religions.
And you are correct, Jews are indeed still waiting for their Messiah. Jews do follow the Old Testament; we call it the Torah. We follow the Old Testament in conjunction with the rest of our cannon; the Gemara, the Talmud and the Midrash; books written by ancient sages who lived during the times of the Temples in Jerusalem. Judaism, contrary to popular belief, is not based solely on the Torah; it is based on the Rabbinical interpretation of it. Huge difference there.
...sorry to hijack your thread there Grouper.... I can start a new one if you'd like
socal57che
Active Member
Just some stuff from my personal research. Take it or leave it. Just putting it out there for people to see.
http://www.messianicjewishonline.com/
http://www.messianic.com/articles/basics.htm
http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...y/deadsea.html
http://www.hebrewoldtestament.com/
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/index.html
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Nam...G-d/El/el.html
I have spent just a couple years researching the Jewish history behind Christianity. Nearly all of the people referenced in the "Christian" New Testament are Jewish. Many early Christians, the term first used for followers of Yeshua at Antioch, were devout Jews. Christiandom spread to Gentiles after being presented to the Jewish population by Jews. Saul of Tarsus was a very well educated circumsized Jew (probably a Pharisee) that went on to write much of the "Christian" New Testament. (as the apostle Paul)
He was famous for persecuting the followers of Yeshua. (Jesus) He personally oversaw the stoning to death of one of Jesus' desciples, Stephen.
Christ means Messiah (loosely speaking), as Mimzy pointed out. I don't expect everyone in the world to accept Yeshua as Christ. The use of X in Xmas used to bother me, but the more I researched, the less it did so. As a Christian, I can explain my faith and vehemently defend it, but I cannot force people to accept it.
http://www.messianicjewishonline.com/
http://www.messianic.com/articles/basics.htm
http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...y/deadsea.html
http://www.hebrewoldtestament.com/
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/index.html
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Nam...G-d/El/el.html
I have spent just a couple years researching the Jewish history behind Christianity. Nearly all of the people referenced in the "Christian" New Testament are Jewish. Many early Christians, the term first used for followers of Yeshua at Antioch, were devout Jews. Christiandom spread to Gentiles after being presented to the Jewish population by Jews. Saul of Tarsus was a very well educated circumsized Jew (probably a Pharisee) that went on to write much of the "Christian" New Testament. (as the apostle Paul)
He was famous for persecuting the followers of Yeshua. (Jesus) He personally oversaw the stoning to death of one of Jesus' desciples, Stephen.
Christ means Messiah (loosely speaking), as Mimzy pointed out. I don't expect everyone in the world to accept Yeshua as Christ. The use of X in Xmas used to bother me, but the more I researched, the less it did so. As a Christian, I can explain my faith and vehemently defend it, but I cannot force people to accept it.
groupergenius
Active Member
Originally Posted by Mimzy
http:///forum/post/2831826
uh... if you can call the entire New Testament an "only," then... yes, that's the "only" thing that differentiates Jews from Christians.
I'm sorry to laugh but that's just really funny. The New Testament and Jesus and his teachings are the greatest religious divide you could possibly think of. It's a massive, massive difference. It has made Jews and Christians two completely different religions.
And you are correct, Jews are indeed still waiting for their Messiah. Jews do follow the Old Testament; we call it the Torah. We follow the Old Testament in conjunction with the rest of our cannon; the Gemara, the Talmud and the Midrash; books written by ancient sages who lived during the times of the Temples in Jerusalem. Judaism, contrary to popular belief, is not based solely on the Torah; it is based on the Rabbinical interpretation of it. Huge difference there.
...sorry to hijack your thread there Grouper.... I can start a new one if you'd like
Thanks Mimzy. That answered my question. No need to start a new one unless you really want to.
I am just going by things I learned a long time ago....Isn't Islam also based upon the Old Testament as well? And the Koran is like their "New Testament?"
Wow, I'm taking my own thread way off base, kinda.
http:///forum/post/2831826
uh... if you can call the entire New Testament an "only," then... yes, that's the "only" thing that differentiates Jews from Christians.
I'm sorry to laugh but that's just really funny. The New Testament and Jesus and his teachings are the greatest religious divide you could possibly think of. It's a massive, massive difference. It has made Jews and Christians two completely different religions.
And you are correct, Jews are indeed still waiting for their Messiah. Jews do follow the Old Testament; we call it the Torah. We follow the Old Testament in conjunction with the rest of our cannon; the Gemara, the Talmud and the Midrash; books written by ancient sages who lived during the times of the Temples in Jerusalem. Judaism, contrary to popular belief, is not based solely on the Torah; it is based on the Rabbinical interpretation of it. Huge difference there.
...sorry to hijack your thread there Grouper.... I can start a new one if you'd like
Thanks Mimzy. That answered my question. No need to start a new one unless you really want to.
I am just going by things I learned a long time ago....Isn't Islam also based upon the Old Testament as well? And the Koran is like their "New Testament?"
Wow, I'm taking my own thread way off base, kinda.
yearofthenick
Active Member
Originally Posted by Mimzy
http:///forum/post/2831778
I have to be honest with you; this is the first time a Christian has come to me with this point of view. It's quite refreshing. Maybe I just don't know enough Christians well educated in Christianity. This has been my point the entire time. People in my community try to come at me from all angles; How can you not SEE that G-d created the universe??? Look at the bird! look at the human body! How can that intricacy and beauty be a MISTAKE??? Blah blah blah.
But it's not just that; it's also the PEOPLE who PRACTICE the religion.... a lot of them are massive, massive poopyheads. There is a whole rash of holier-than-thou-ness in my community and I'm so sick of it I'm fit to be tied. I know this exists in every religion... and that's just making it worse.
I'm just coming to see religion as more of a tool for certain people to control and gain wealth and for other people to use as a tool of exclusion and to make themselves feel better about their lives. Too many people have tainted it. It's not really about G-d anymore, but about "how much more religious am I than you? How much more special am I than you?" Blah blah blah again.
You know, as I read this, it just further shows to me how messed up the church has become. I mean, we've forgotten everything about our origins and instead have allowed the rituals and politics rule the church. Having been in full-time ministry for over 9 years, it really breaks my heart. It breaks my heart because at the end of the day, people could care less about social status or money or power - they seek those things to find purpose, but that's not the reason God exists.
I mean, sure, we could look at the birds and the trees and the flowers and the seeds... in fact, they're so intricate that it couldn't have been a mistake, but thats another convo for another time. We can argue evolution and all that, but for me, what makes God real is Jesus. I know that's a topic we don't agree on and that's totally fine with me. But history has shown that something definitely happened. History has shown us that if Alexander the Great existed (his story was found on a single scroll more than 1,000 years after it happened), then something should be said about Jesus' death and resurrection (Found over 900 scrolls, 20-50 years after it happened). If Caesar existed (found 100 scrolls about 500 years after it happened) Then something should be said about the New Testament (24,000 scrolls, some of them written less than 10 years after it happened).
Something definitely happened. Something so great and powerful that people of that time saw an urgency to write much more about it than they did about writing the existence of Caesar.
Not to mention how much my life has changed. Sure, a lot of people can see an answered prayer or miracle as a "coincidence", but that's where the step to faith is. Personally, there have been entirely too many coincidences in my life for them to be coincidences.
Ultimately, I believe in God because I can see the transformation that takes place in people's lives when they take that step of faith. I see a self-lessness and an internal peace, joy, and humility that even they can't explain.
One of the most common arguments is that God was created by man because man selfishly wanted a purpose behind life. Well, when people take a step of faith, it's not a selfish act at all. Why would someone want to give themselves rules? Because of the freedom that comes from it.
Example: IF God IS the creator, then he makes rules for us - he doesn't want us to kill because it ends the lives of people who want to live, and hurts the families of those who died. He doesn't want us to commit adultery because it hurts our spouses and ultimately us too. He created the rules because he wants us to live lives joyfully. Kind of hard to live when you kill someone and keep a mistress. <--- sorry, a little tangent there lol
But again, it's all faith, and not fact. I'm not here to argue whether or not "Faith" is a "fact" because that's a futile argument. It all comes down to a personal decision. Funny, though, that many of the arguments I've faced have been by non-believers who are unsettledly relentless about popping the faith bubble. Why does it matter so much to non-believers if they don't believe anyway? Interesting.
P.S. I'll never force this JESUS OR HELL expectation. God did not create us to condemn each other. That decision is ultimately His, not mine - thankfully. Besides, you don't want me at the pearly gates deciding who goes or stays. I'd get pretty tired of the job and just tell you all to go to hell! Just kidding.
http:///forum/post/2831778
I have to be honest with you; this is the first time a Christian has come to me with this point of view. It's quite refreshing. Maybe I just don't know enough Christians well educated in Christianity. This has been my point the entire time. People in my community try to come at me from all angles; How can you not SEE that G-d created the universe??? Look at the bird! look at the human body! How can that intricacy and beauty be a MISTAKE??? Blah blah blah.
But it's not just that; it's also the PEOPLE who PRACTICE the religion.... a lot of them are massive, massive poopyheads. There is a whole rash of holier-than-thou-ness in my community and I'm so sick of it I'm fit to be tied. I know this exists in every religion... and that's just making it worse.
I'm just coming to see religion as more of a tool for certain people to control and gain wealth and for other people to use as a tool of exclusion and to make themselves feel better about their lives. Too many people have tainted it. It's not really about G-d anymore, but about "how much more religious am I than you? How much more special am I than you?" Blah blah blah again.
You know, as I read this, it just further shows to me how messed up the church has become. I mean, we've forgotten everything about our origins and instead have allowed the rituals and politics rule the church. Having been in full-time ministry for over 9 years, it really breaks my heart. It breaks my heart because at the end of the day, people could care less about social status or money or power - they seek those things to find purpose, but that's not the reason God exists.
I mean, sure, we could look at the birds and the trees and the flowers and the seeds... in fact, they're so intricate that it couldn't have been a mistake, but thats another convo for another time. We can argue evolution and all that, but for me, what makes God real is Jesus. I know that's a topic we don't agree on and that's totally fine with me. But history has shown that something definitely happened. History has shown us that if Alexander the Great existed (his story was found on a single scroll more than 1,000 years after it happened), then something should be said about Jesus' death and resurrection (Found over 900 scrolls, 20-50 years after it happened). If Caesar existed (found 100 scrolls about 500 years after it happened) Then something should be said about the New Testament (24,000 scrolls, some of them written less than 10 years after it happened).
Something definitely happened. Something so great and powerful that people of that time saw an urgency to write much more about it than they did about writing the existence of Caesar.
Not to mention how much my life has changed. Sure, a lot of people can see an answered prayer or miracle as a "coincidence", but that's where the step to faith is. Personally, there have been entirely too many coincidences in my life for them to be coincidences.
Ultimately, I believe in God because I can see the transformation that takes place in people's lives when they take that step of faith. I see a self-lessness and an internal peace, joy, and humility that even they can't explain.
One of the most common arguments is that God was created by man because man selfishly wanted a purpose behind life. Well, when people take a step of faith, it's not a selfish act at all. Why would someone want to give themselves rules? Because of the freedom that comes from it.
Example: IF God IS the creator, then he makes rules for us - he doesn't want us to kill because it ends the lives of people who want to live, and hurts the families of those who died. He doesn't want us to commit adultery because it hurts our spouses and ultimately us too. He created the rules because he wants us to live lives joyfully. Kind of hard to live when you kill someone and keep a mistress. <--- sorry, a little tangent there lol
But again, it's all faith, and not fact. I'm not here to argue whether or not "Faith" is a "fact" because that's a futile argument. It all comes down to a personal decision. Funny, though, that many of the arguments I've faced have been by non-believers who are unsettledly relentless about popping the faith bubble. Why does it matter so much to non-believers if they don't believe anyway? Interesting.
P.S. I'll never force this JESUS OR HELL expectation. God did not create us to condemn each other. That decision is ultimately His, not mine - thankfully. Besides, you don't want me at the pearly gates deciding who goes or stays. I'd get pretty tired of the job and just tell you all to go to hell! Just kidding.
mimzy
Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2832011
P.S. I'll never force this JESUS OR HELL expectation. God did not create us to condemn each other. That decision is ultimately His, not mine - thankfully. Besides, you don't want me at the pearly gates deciding who goes or stays. I'd get pretty tired of the job and just tell you all to go to hell! Just kidding.
Allow me to clarify; Jews do not believe in Jesus as a prophet, nor do we accept him as Messiah - we also do not deny his existence. We have documented proof that he existed. There are whole long discussions between various ancient Rabbis, his contemporaries, about how to deal with the issues he brought forth and so on; we never, ever tried to deny his existence. We know he was around, we know he had followers, we know he broke off a whole sect of Jews who followed him and we know how it all ultimately became its own religion. Never ever once do we deny any of it.
That said, I've never heard this attitude you speak of.... I've always ever heard it said "Jesus or Hell." Is there anything written in the cannon to contradict this, or are you interjecting your own hopes about G-d to come to this conclusion?
http:///forum/post/2832011
P.S. I'll never force this JESUS OR HELL expectation. God did not create us to condemn each other. That decision is ultimately His, not mine - thankfully. Besides, you don't want me at the pearly gates deciding who goes or stays. I'd get pretty tired of the job and just tell you all to go to hell! Just kidding.
Allow me to clarify; Jews do not believe in Jesus as a prophet, nor do we accept him as Messiah - we also do not deny his existence. We have documented proof that he existed. There are whole long discussions between various ancient Rabbis, his contemporaries, about how to deal with the issues he brought forth and so on; we never, ever tried to deny his existence. We know he was around, we know he had followers, we know he broke off a whole sect of Jews who followed him and we know how it all ultimately became its own religion. Never ever once do we deny any of it.
That said, I've never heard this attitude you speak of.... I've always ever heard it said "Jesus or Hell." Is there anything written in the cannon to contradict this, or are you interjecting your own hopes about G-d to come to this conclusion?
yearofthenick
Active Member
I should have said something about that... yes I do know that the Jewish faith is an acknowledging of Jesus' existence and his life in the times. I believe the only difference is that the Jewish faith denys Jesus' second coming. By the way, the 900 written accounts I stated earlier were about Jesus' resurrection.
As for JESUS OR HELL, non-denominational Christianity does not believe this is our job, though peer-to-peer condemnation is not anything new historically. I know the Jewish faith is much different. But Christians believe that the choice to condemn is ultimately God's and not ours. From what I understand, the fire and brimstone is originally Catholic... the penance and hail Mary's and all. But that's not what christians believe. For us Christians, if you sin, you ask forgiveness, and because of Jesus being the sacrifice, He forgives you... from a theological perspective.
Seriously, who are we to condemn others? (I know you agree with me, just asking the question anyway haha). Becoming a Christian is accepting that we're sinners. If I sin and you sin, who am I to place myself on a pedestal just to condemn you for your sin? That is ultimate hypocrisy. However, a lot of pastors in christian churches fall to this hypocrisy. They're in high-power. They appear blameless. They get asked for guidance pretty regularly. They're respected. It's very easy to take a role like that and begin to think you've got the right to tell others they are going to hell. But that attitude is so disgusting to me... and totally goes against the NT like a dozen times.
The problem you see is probably not with religion, but from what people have tainted religion to become. It's the sin and evil in people's lives that
[hr]
the whole thing up. It's people who think they can do the job of a God who's been around a lot longer than anyone has... and it's really disappointing.
I've been thinking of starting a church myself, because the idea of "church" and "religion" has become so shotty that no one wants to go anymore. But if they begin to see what church should REALLY be, just as it was in biblical times, they would see that they can't get enough. I look at myself and I have no big theological degree or anything, but neither did Jesus' 12 apostles... most of them were fishermen... they didn't pass the Torah memorization test. They dropped out. And Jesus chose them. Why? Because he knew their own agendas wouldn't get into the way. That's what really matters in church leadership. If we just let go of our ego's and really discern what the bible is supposed to mean for us, I think we'd find that it's a lot more helpful than it is condemning and stupid.
As for JESUS OR HELL, non-denominational Christianity does not believe this is our job, though peer-to-peer condemnation is not anything new historically. I know the Jewish faith is much different. But Christians believe that the choice to condemn is ultimately God's and not ours. From what I understand, the fire and brimstone is originally Catholic... the penance and hail Mary's and all. But that's not what christians believe. For us Christians, if you sin, you ask forgiveness, and because of Jesus being the sacrifice, He forgives you... from a theological perspective.
Seriously, who are we to condemn others? (I know you agree with me, just asking the question anyway haha). Becoming a Christian is accepting that we're sinners. If I sin and you sin, who am I to place myself on a pedestal just to condemn you for your sin? That is ultimate hypocrisy. However, a lot of pastors in christian churches fall to this hypocrisy. They're in high-power. They appear blameless. They get asked for guidance pretty regularly. They're respected. It's very easy to take a role like that and begin to think you've got the right to tell others they are going to hell. But that attitude is so disgusting to me... and totally goes against the NT like a dozen times.
The problem you see is probably not with religion, but from what people have tainted religion to become. It's the sin and evil in people's lives that
[hr]
the whole thing up. It's people who think they can do the job of a God who's been around a lot longer than anyone has... and it's really disappointing.
I've been thinking of starting a church myself, because the idea of "church" and "religion" has become so shotty that no one wants to go anymore. But if they begin to see what church should REALLY be, just as it was in biblical times, they would see that they can't get enough. I look at myself and I have no big theological degree or anything, but neither did Jesus' 12 apostles... most of them were fishermen... they didn't pass the Torah memorization test. They dropped out. And Jesus chose them. Why? Because he knew their own agendas wouldn't get into the way. That's what really matters in church leadership. If we just let go of our ego's and really discern what the bible is supposed to mean for us, I think we'd find that it's a lot more helpful than it is condemning and stupid.
mimzy
Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2832226
As for JESUS OR HELL, non-denominational Christianity does not believe this is our job, though peer-to-peer condemnation is not anything new historically. I know the Jewish faith is much different.
Mmm, question... what did you mean here?
and yes, you're right; my problem with religion IS the people practicing it. Absolutely and without question. I think I've said that, too. But here's the thing.... Judaism is all about what G-d said, and about the Rabbinical implementation of those laws. In Judaism, where there is no community there is nothing. You MUST have community, you MUST have other people, you MUST have Rabbis. Some of our harshest punishments involve exile from community. Community is the be-all and end-all of the Religion, it simply does not work without it.
And that's where my problem is.
I don't like people.
I can't stand them.
ESPECIALLY the people in my community. UGH. I'm not going to go there, but I've simply HAD IT.
I'm not interested in having G-d if it means also having to deal with the rest of the buttheads He created.
http:///forum/post/2832226
As for JESUS OR HELL, non-denominational Christianity does not believe this is our job, though peer-to-peer condemnation is not anything new historically. I know the Jewish faith is much different.
Mmm, question... what did you mean here?
and yes, you're right; my problem with religion IS the people practicing it. Absolutely and without question. I think I've said that, too. But here's the thing.... Judaism is all about what G-d said, and about the Rabbinical implementation of those laws. In Judaism, where there is no community there is nothing. You MUST have community, you MUST have other people, you MUST have Rabbis. Some of our harshest punishments involve exile from community. Community is the be-all and end-all of the Religion, it simply does not work without it.
And that's where my problem is.
I don't like people.
I can't stand them.
ESPECIALLY the people in my community. UGH. I'm not going to go there, but I've simply HAD IT.
I'm not interested in having G-d if it means also having to deal with the rest of the buttheads He created.
yearofthenick
Active Member
sorry, the last sentence didn't really relate to the first half. I'm out to dinner and will respond to your post when I get home. It's gonna be a good one because I have a lot to say about it! Nothing negative though.