tang master
Member
Note to all: "Every knee will bow". And remember Jesus Loves You!!! This message is in all seriousness.
I hate the abbreviation...X-mas....
- Thread starter groupergenius
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tizzo
Guest
Mimz, I'm gonna interject here cause I grew up an athiest, and had all the wrong ideas about what God is, what he wanted, everything.
27 years I was an athiest. Like you, I was not that way so that Christians would try to change me. I didn't argue "religion" because most tried to change me instead of simply debate. And Good lord my best friend was the worst.
And with my convo's with her, is where all that your saying brings back memories...
But now, I am a Christian, and I still remember how I felt then, and I still remember the "arguments" and threats people used to try to convert me, so I absolutely stay away from those antics.
You said your struggling and this is the reason for my post.
Remove Jesus (messiah or not), remove the church, remove religion, custom, tradition, and people.
This is about you and God. If you believe that there really is a God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then it's him you should talk to about it.
You cannot base your potential faith on the wrongdoings, or even the rightdoings of the people and churches around you.
You first need to simply decide if you believe. And then if you do... it's between you and him from then on.
I say this because before I became a Christian, I used a lot of the common argurments... One being the "hippocrites" in church, and the money they collect etc... But now, those people concern me in the least. They are not why I go...
If we met in a public facility, you may see me drink a wine, say a cuss word (rare, but maybe) and even get frustrated at people... BUt Nobody says I'm perfect, nobody says I have to be... I just believe.
I absolutely try to remember that God is always watching, and I try to act accordingly, but I have and I will always mess up... But as long as my faith is strong, I think he smiles.
27 years I was an athiest. Like you, I was not that way so that Christians would try to change me. I didn't argue "religion" because most tried to change me instead of simply debate. And Good lord my best friend was the worst.
And with my convo's with her, is where all that your saying brings back memories...
But now, I am a Christian, and I still remember how I felt then, and I still remember the "arguments" and threats people used to try to convert me, so I absolutely stay away from those antics.
You said your struggling and this is the reason for my post.
Remove Jesus (messiah or not), remove the church, remove religion, custom, tradition, and people.
This is about you and God. If you believe that there really is a God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then it's him you should talk to about it.
You cannot base your potential faith on the wrongdoings, or even the rightdoings of the people and churches around you.
You first need to simply decide if you believe. And then if you do... it's between you and him from then on.
I say this because before I became a Christian, I used a lot of the common argurments... One being the "hippocrites" in church, and the money they collect etc... But now, those people concern me in the least. They are not why I go...
If we met in a public facility, you may see me drink a wine, say a cuss word (rare, but maybe) and even get frustrated at people... BUt Nobody says I'm perfect, nobody says I have to be... I just believe.
I absolutely try to remember that God is always watching, and I try to act accordingly, but I have and I will always mess up... But as long as my faith is strong, I think he smiles.
yearofthenick
Active Member
Originally Posted by Mimzy
http:///forum/post/2832328
Mmm, question... what did you mean here?
and yes, you're right; my problem with religion IS the people practicing it. Absolutely and without question. I think I've said that, too. But here's the thing.... Judaism is all about what G-d said, and about the Rabbinical implementation of those laws. In Judaism, where there is no community there is nothing. You MUST have community, you MUST have other people, you MUST have Rabbis. Some of our harshest punishments involve exile from community. Community is the be-all and end-all of the Religion, it simply does not work without it.
And that's where my problem is.
I don't like people.
I can't stand them.
ESPECIALLY the people in my community. UGH. I'm not going to go there, but I've simply HAD IT.
I've come across a lot of people who are Jewish because of the holocaust (undeniably a horrible and gruesome, dark part of our barbaric history). BUT, it's like the thing that brings them together. It was because they were Jewish that they were targeted, and they feel a sense of obligation to continue the same beliefs of their grandparents because if they don't it would diminish the horror they went through.
But Judaism will never die in my opinion... especially because of the history of the Holocaust. Such a horrible and tragic thing. However, personally, I wouldn't want to carry what my parents or grandparents have faced. Not because it doesn't matter to me, because it absolutely does! But because then the faith would not be my own. It would be an obligatory aspect of my life forced upon me because that's just the way I was told to live.
But what about making it truly yours? What about what you believe? And what God REALLY is instead of what your parents are obligating God to be FOR you? (not YOU you, just the third person you.)
The community that you're talking about sounds pretty obligatory as well. And be honest with me now, do they really exile people? That epitomizes the JESUS OR HELL mentality. Who are they to decide your salvation for you???
I think there is a need for some kind of community and fellowship for believers. I think it's tough to live a faith-driven life when there are people around you who could care less about what you choose to believe. There's a certain comfort that comes in having friends that share the same faith... something you can discuss freely with them.
I don't know much about Judaism, but don't they believe in the wrath of God? Like if you sin, he's going to come and strike you down? And all Jewish believers meet once a year to repent and sacrifice? Right? I could be totally botching it all up. I'm just sharing what I heard from a Jewish friend. I haven't done a whole lot of research on Judaism.
Originally Posted by Mimzy
http:///forum/post/2832328
I'm not interested in having G-d if it means also having to deal with the rest of the buttheads He created.
Hey, buttheads exist in every corner of every street of every city of every country in this world. I think we all have to deal with them whether we like it or not - and I think we've all filled the butthead role from time to time.
But I agree with Tizzo... it's not about the buttheads of religion... it's not even about what we've made religion out to be. It's about the relationship you have with God... and it's totally possible
http:///forum/post/2832328
Mmm, question... what did you mean here?
and yes, you're right; my problem with religion IS the people practicing it. Absolutely and without question. I think I've said that, too. But here's the thing.... Judaism is all about what G-d said, and about the Rabbinical implementation of those laws. In Judaism, where there is no community there is nothing. You MUST have community, you MUST have other people, you MUST have Rabbis. Some of our harshest punishments involve exile from community. Community is the be-all and end-all of the Religion, it simply does not work without it.
And that's where my problem is.
I don't like people.
I can't stand them.
ESPECIALLY the people in my community. UGH. I'm not going to go there, but I've simply HAD IT.
I've come across a lot of people who are Jewish because of the holocaust (undeniably a horrible and gruesome, dark part of our barbaric history). BUT, it's like the thing that brings them together. It was because they were Jewish that they were targeted, and they feel a sense of obligation to continue the same beliefs of their grandparents because if they don't it would diminish the horror they went through.
But Judaism will never die in my opinion... especially because of the history of the Holocaust. Such a horrible and tragic thing. However, personally, I wouldn't want to carry what my parents or grandparents have faced. Not because it doesn't matter to me, because it absolutely does! But because then the faith would not be my own. It would be an obligatory aspect of my life forced upon me because that's just the way I was told to live.
But what about making it truly yours? What about what you believe? And what God REALLY is instead of what your parents are obligating God to be FOR you? (not YOU you, just the third person you.)
The community that you're talking about sounds pretty obligatory as well. And be honest with me now, do they really exile people? That epitomizes the JESUS OR HELL mentality. Who are they to decide your salvation for you???
I think there is a need for some kind of community and fellowship for believers. I think it's tough to live a faith-driven life when there are people around you who could care less about what you choose to believe. There's a certain comfort that comes in having friends that share the same faith... something you can discuss freely with them.
I don't know much about Judaism, but don't they believe in the wrath of God? Like if you sin, he's going to come and strike you down? And all Jewish believers meet once a year to repent and sacrifice? Right? I could be totally botching it all up. I'm just sharing what I heard from a Jewish friend. I haven't done a whole lot of research on Judaism.
Originally Posted by Mimzy
http:///forum/post/2832328
I'm not interested in having G-d if it means also having to deal with the rest of the buttheads He created.
Hey, buttheads exist in every corner of every street of every city of every country in this world. I think we all have to deal with them whether we like it or not - and I think we've all filled the butthead role from time to time.
But I agree with Tizzo... it's not about the buttheads of religion... it's not even about what we've made religion out to be. It's about the relationship you have with God... and it's totally possible
yearofthenick
Active Member
Okay this is my last thought - and it's a THOUGHT... not a proven fact. AND to preface it, the reason behind telling you this is because I want to share why I think it all works out. I am not sure, but to most Jewish people in the times, God is this huge guy in the sky making sure you do what you need to do and you're risking wrath every time you sin. God did a lot of crazy stuff in the OT (Old Testament)... some downright crazy stuff. But lets assume that there's some level of truth in the NT (New Testament). I'm not asking you to abandon your Judaism... I would never ask that of you. What I am asking for is your opinion on this idea I have as a Christian running something by a Jewish believer. Ok here it goes.
So God is perfect right? All-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful, all-time, unchanging. So if the stuff in the NT were true then it goes against everything God was like in the OT. I mean, in the OT God put people through crazy challenges and struck down oodles of people and cities... all kinds of freaky wars and nutty rules that we would have never even imagined in this day and age (Not that it's a bad thing - kinda awesome to read it all). The OT clearly shows to us many aspects and character traits of God. He is almost the opposite in the NT... I mean really different. Instead of bringing wrath, He brings love and forgiveness. Instead of killing, God is healing. They're almost total polar opposites. SO again, WHY WHY WHY do we have this God who is so Yin-Yang? And how can we believe in the NT when we clearly know who He is by looking at the OT??? If God does not change, then it's NOT God they're talking about in the NT, right?
Wrong.
Here's the meat of this theory. I think God made His history perfectly, but I think He made it Perfectly and purposely imperfect. Look at it this way. In the OT, he's showing you what it's like without forgiveness. This is who God is, in all his wrath and glory. If you sin, you need to sacrifice innocent blood to pay for your sin - otherwise you need to invest in an anti-lightning-bolt hat. But we needed to see the wrath so we could really learn to appreciate and love what God did for us when WE sacrificed His innocent son on the cross. God is perfect, and I can think of no better way to show His perfect love to us than by showing us what life is like without it... then giving the one thing he loved the most to us so we could have that bridge - that personal relationship with Him. We need to see the bad so we can really appreciate the good. And God is good.
I believe I was created. I think everything was created. And I think God is proud when we seek to please him. I think He weeps when the world does wrong. But with the freedom we have to choose whether or not to believe comes the freedom we have to partake in evil. If God took the guess work out of the equation for us, we'd be robots, aimlessly living life as God holds the remote control. I think we cause the evil in our world, but I think we can also cause good. I choose good because God is good to me. He gave me something I will never be able to repay - the Death of His son.
I went through years of anguish in deciding for myself whether or not God exists. I attended all kinds of religious meetings... even went to a Hindu Mosk... that was interesting. Of many of the religions (not all) the Holy Bible acted as a basis. As I said earlier, the OT and NT clearly show us two different types of God. So which one is alive in this world today? We see many more aspects of the NT God in today's society than we do with the OT God. People are growing daily because they've found a God who loves them and wants to change them for the better. Not a God who will show wrath without sacrifice. That's why I chose to be a Christian, and my life has never been the same. He is definitely out there, and waaay too many people (over 80% in the US) believe in some form of a God for Him not to be there. Granted, many of them are the buttheads lol... but something has to be said about that.
So God is perfect right? All-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful, all-time, unchanging. So if the stuff in the NT were true then it goes against everything God was like in the OT. I mean, in the OT God put people through crazy challenges and struck down oodles of people and cities... all kinds of freaky wars and nutty rules that we would have never even imagined in this day and age (Not that it's a bad thing - kinda awesome to read it all). The OT clearly shows to us many aspects and character traits of God. He is almost the opposite in the NT... I mean really different. Instead of bringing wrath, He brings love and forgiveness. Instead of killing, God is healing. They're almost total polar opposites. SO again, WHY WHY WHY do we have this God who is so Yin-Yang? And how can we believe in the NT when we clearly know who He is by looking at the OT??? If God does not change, then it's NOT God they're talking about in the NT, right?
Wrong.
Here's the meat of this theory. I think God made His history perfectly, but I think He made it Perfectly and purposely imperfect. Look at it this way. In the OT, he's showing you what it's like without forgiveness. This is who God is, in all his wrath and glory. If you sin, you need to sacrifice innocent blood to pay for your sin - otherwise you need to invest in an anti-lightning-bolt hat. But we needed to see the wrath so we could really learn to appreciate and love what God did for us when WE sacrificed His innocent son on the cross. God is perfect, and I can think of no better way to show His perfect love to us than by showing us what life is like without it... then giving the one thing he loved the most to us so we could have that bridge - that personal relationship with Him. We need to see the bad so we can really appreciate the good. And God is good.
I believe I was created. I think everything was created. And I think God is proud when we seek to please him. I think He weeps when the world does wrong. But with the freedom we have to choose whether or not to believe comes the freedom we have to partake in evil. If God took the guess work out of the equation for us, we'd be robots, aimlessly living life as God holds the remote control. I think we cause the evil in our world, but I think we can also cause good. I choose good because God is good to me. He gave me something I will never be able to repay - the Death of His son.
I went through years of anguish in deciding for myself whether or not God exists. I attended all kinds of religious meetings... even went to a Hindu Mosk... that was interesting. Of many of the religions (not all) the Holy Bible acted as a basis. As I said earlier, the OT and NT clearly show us two different types of God. So which one is alive in this world today? We see many more aspects of the NT God in today's society than we do with the OT God. People are growing daily because they've found a God who loves them and wants to change them for the better. Not a God who will show wrath without sacrifice. That's why I chose to be a Christian, and my life has never been the same. He is definitely out there, and waaay too many people (over 80% in the US) believe in some form of a God for Him not to be there. Granted, many of them are the buttheads lol... but something has to be said about that.
yearofthenick
Active Member
Ok it's been an hour an the amount of views went from 206 to 260 and yet no one has responded... Am I really that effective in stifling everyone??? LOL
texasmetal
Active Member
Religion. Dividing people since the dawn of awareness.
mimzy
Active Member
Originally Posted by TexasMetal
http:///forum/post/2832862
Religion. Dividing people since the dawn of awareness.
you said it, brother.
http:///forum/post/2832862
Religion. Dividing people since the dawn of awareness.
you said it, brother.
mimzy
Active Member
Originally Posted by Tizzo
http:///forum/post/2832467
]
You said your struggling and this is the reason for my post.
Remove Jesus (messiah or not), remove the church, remove religion, custom, tradition, and people.
This is about you and God. If you believe that there really is a God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then it's him you should talk to about it.
You cannot base your potential faith on the wrongdoings, or even the rightdoings of the people and churches around you.
right right this is all right, Tizz. But this is where I'm stuck; it's really very difficult to get past years and years of pain and anger and personal attacks. extricating the G-d from the RELIGIOUS is the hardest part.
It's just going to take time, I suppose. I have to really look at it objectively and make sure I'm not looking at it from a place of hurt and anger anymore; do I really BELIEVE there may not be a G-d, or am I just ANGRY? It's a big question and a difficult one to answer, as I said, objectively. It's not one that anyone can answer for me, either; you said it took 27 years for you, it'll prob take as long for me. And I'll bet I change my mind in there a few times too.
http:///forum/post/2832467
]
You said your struggling and this is the reason for my post.
Remove Jesus (messiah or not), remove the church, remove religion, custom, tradition, and people.
This is about you and God. If you believe that there really is a God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then it's him you should talk to about it.
You cannot base your potential faith on the wrongdoings, or even the rightdoings of the people and churches around you.
right right this is all right, Tizz. But this is where I'm stuck; it's really very difficult to get past years and years of pain and anger and personal attacks. extricating the G-d from the RELIGIOUS is the hardest part.
It's just going to take time, I suppose. I have to really look at it objectively and make sure I'm not looking at it from a place of hurt and anger anymore; do I really BELIEVE there may not be a G-d, or am I just ANGRY? It's a big question and a difficult one to answer, as I said, objectively. It's not one that anyone can answer for me, either; you said it took 27 years for you, it'll prob take as long for me. And I'll bet I change my mind in there a few times too.
mimzy
Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2832545
Okay this is my last thought - and it's a THOUGHT... not a proven fact. AND to preface it, the reason behind telling you this is because I want to share why I think it all works out. I am not sure, but to most Jewish people in the times, God is this huge guy in the sky making sure you do what you need to do and you're risking wrath every time you sin.
NO. no no no no no this is not correct has never been correct and never WILL be correct this is WRONG. WHERE do people HEAR this stuff? You are not the first person I've met with this perception and it's so backward I cannot even believe it. Jews live with the concept of "Teshuva." Literally translated in means "To return." Meaning, when you sin, or commit an act against G-d or your fellow human beings, you ALWAYS, ALWAYS have the opportunity to RETURN to favor, to RETURN to righteousness; IF you follow the four rules of Teshuva; 1.acknowledge that you have done wrong. 2.apologize to & askf forgiveness from the person or people you have wronged 3. repay the person or people you have wronged in the appropriate manner and finally 4. when presented with the opportunity to transgress again, chose NOT to.
THAT is how Jews deal with sin. Once we have achieved all 4 of those steps, we are forgven for our transgression. We have personal responsibility to set things right and to make sure we do not perpetuate the cycle of wrongdoing. None of this "be good or fear the wrath of G-d" gobledygook. There is of course wrath to be felt in various circumstances; ie; when we do NOT take personal responsibility for things, but we do not live in fear. That's not an effective leadership method.
http:///forum/post/2832545
Okay this is my last thought - and it's a THOUGHT... not a proven fact. AND to preface it, the reason behind telling you this is because I want to share why I think it all works out. I am not sure, but to most Jewish people in the times, God is this huge guy in the sky making sure you do what you need to do and you're risking wrath every time you sin.
NO. no no no no no this is not correct has never been correct and never WILL be correct this is WRONG. WHERE do people HEAR this stuff? You are not the first person I've met with this perception and it's so backward I cannot even believe it. Jews live with the concept of "Teshuva." Literally translated in means "To return." Meaning, when you sin, or commit an act against G-d or your fellow human beings, you ALWAYS, ALWAYS have the opportunity to RETURN to favor, to RETURN to righteousness; IF you follow the four rules of Teshuva; 1.acknowledge that you have done wrong. 2.apologize to & askf forgiveness from the person or people you have wronged 3. repay the person or people you have wronged in the appropriate manner and finally 4. when presented with the opportunity to transgress again, chose NOT to.
THAT is how Jews deal with sin. Once we have achieved all 4 of those steps, we are forgven for our transgression. We have personal responsibility to set things right and to make sure we do not perpetuate the cycle of wrongdoing. None of this "be good or fear the wrath of G-d" gobledygook. There is of course wrath to be felt in various circumstances; ie; when we do NOT take personal responsibility for things, but we do not live in fear. That's not an effective leadership method.
t316
Active Member
Originally Posted by Mimzy
http:///forum/post/2832973
NO. no no no no no this is not correct has never been correct and never WILL be correct this is WRONG. WHERE do people HEAR this stuff? You are not the first person I've met with this perception and it's so backward I cannot even believe it. Jews live with the concept of "Teshuva." Literally translated in means "To return." Meaning, when you sin, or commit an act against G-d or your fellow human beings, you ALWAYS, ALWAYS have the opportunity to RETURN to favor, to RETURN to righteousness; IF you follow the four rules of Teshuva; 1.acknowledge that you have done wrong. 2.apologize to & askf forgiveness from the person or people you have wronged 3. repay the person or people you have wronged in the appropriate manner and finally 4. when presented with the opportunity to transgress again, chose NOT to.
THAT is how Jews deal with sin. Once we have achieved all 4 of those steps, we are forgven for our transgression. We have personal responsibility to set things right and to make sure we do not perpetuate the cycle of wrongdoing. None of this "be good or fear the wrath of G-d" gobledygook. There is of course wrath to be felt in various circumstances; ie; when we do NOT take personal responsibility for things, but we do not live in fear. That's not an effective leadership method.
....and how is this different from when a Christian sins?
We just make it sound simple....(Ask for forgiveness)
http:///forum/post/2832973
NO. no no no no no this is not correct has never been correct and never WILL be correct this is WRONG. WHERE do people HEAR this stuff? You are not the first person I've met with this perception and it's so backward I cannot even believe it. Jews live with the concept of "Teshuva." Literally translated in means "To return." Meaning, when you sin, or commit an act against G-d or your fellow human beings, you ALWAYS, ALWAYS have the opportunity to RETURN to favor, to RETURN to righteousness; IF you follow the four rules of Teshuva; 1.acknowledge that you have done wrong. 2.apologize to & askf forgiveness from the person or people you have wronged 3. repay the person or people you have wronged in the appropriate manner and finally 4. when presented with the opportunity to transgress again, chose NOT to.
THAT is how Jews deal with sin. Once we have achieved all 4 of those steps, we are forgven for our transgression. We have personal responsibility to set things right and to make sure we do not perpetuate the cycle of wrongdoing. None of this "be good or fear the wrath of G-d" gobledygook. There is of course wrath to be felt in various circumstances; ie; when we do NOT take personal responsibility for things, but we do not live in fear. That's not an effective leadership method.
....and how is this different from when a Christian sins?
We just make it sound simple....(Ask for forgiveness)
cowfishrule
Active Member
i have to say....
i am quite amazed at how much thought goes into all of this. it seems that some feel empty without religion, and some feel so strongly about their religion that they cant let go.
maybe its because i never bought into it, even after all those years of ccd and church going. sorry if im sounding rude or insensitive, but why cant you just walk away from it?
i am quite amazed at how much thought goes into all of this. it seems that some feel empty without religion, and some feel so strongly about their religion that they cant let go.
maybe its because i never bought into it, even after all those years of ccd and church going. sorry if im sounding rude or insensitive, but why cant you just walk away from it?
mimzy
Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2832545
1. I'm not asking you to abandon your Judaism... I would never ask that of you. What I am asking for is your opinion on this idea I have as a Christian running something by a Jewish believer. Ok here it goes.
2. I think God made His history perfectly, but I think He made it Perfectly and purposely imperfect.
3. Granted, many of them are the buttheads lol... but something has to be said about that.
1. thank you, I appreciate that; too many people are far too pushy. pushy pushy pushy.
2. and this is my theory; I'm not too sure G-d wrote these bibles. They look an aweful lot like a whole bunch of various peoples throughout history trying to subvert and control their various populaces. And anything not directly written by the "hand" of G-d is fallible and subject to the transcriber's interpretation. And since I've had enough trouble with G-d's fan club already, I'm not so much interested anymore in reading anything He's not written Himself. Oh wait, we don't actually have anything we can prove He's written Himself, do we? Hhhm... iiiiiiiiiinteresting.
3. it's human nature to seek a leader. we have a pack mentality. I don't think our nature is the best proof of the EXISTENCE of a higher power. There ARE atheists in foxoles, we CAN overcome our nature, and often do.
http:///forum/post/2832545
1. I'm not asking you to abandon your Judaism... I would never ask that of you. What I am asking for is your opinion on this idea I have as a Christian running something by a Jewish believer. Ok here it goes.
2. I think God made His history perfectly, but I think He made it Perfectly and purposely imperfect.
3. Granted, many of them are the buttheads lol... but something has to be said about that.
1. thank you, I appreciate that; too many people are far too pushy. pushy pushy pushy.
2. and this is my theory; I'm not too sure G-d wrote these bibles. They look an aweful lot like a whole bunch of various peoples throughout history trying to subvert and control their various populaces. And anything not directly written by the "hand" of G-d is fallible and subject to the transcriber's interpretation. And since I've had enough trouble with G-d's fan club already, I'm not so much interested anymore in reading anything He's not written Himself. Oh wait, we don't actually have anything we can prove He's written Himself, do we? Hhhm... iiiiiiiiiinteresting.
3. it's human nature to seek a leader. we have a pack mentality. I don't think our nature is the best proof of the EXISTENCE of a higher power. There ARE atheists in foxoles, we CAN overcome our nature, and often do.
mimzy
Active Member
Originally Posted by COWFISHRULE
http:///forum/post/2832990
i have to say....
i am quite amazed at how much thought goes into all of this. it seems that some feel empty without religion, and some feel so strongly about their religion that they cant let go.
maybe its because i never bought into it, even after all those years of ccd and church going. sorry if im sounding rude or insensitive, but why cant you just walk away from it?
not rude or insensitive at all! it's a good question. and one I wish I had the answer to myself. I think, honestly, it's because I've been brainwashed. LoL. Since the time I was three years old I've had this stuff shoved down my throat. To leave it completely would be a psychological amputation, basically. It takes a lot of work and a lot of time. IF I end up leaving at all.
http:///forum/post/2832990
i have to say....
i am quite amazed at how much thought goes into all of this. it seems that some feel empty without religion, and some feel so strongly about their religion that they cant let go.
maybe its because i never bought into it, even after all those years of ccd and church going. sorry if im sounding rude or insensitive, but why cant you just walk away from it?
not rude or insensitive at all! it's a good question. and one I wish I had the answer to myself. I think, honestly, it's because I've been brainwashed. LoL. Since the time I was three years old I've had this stuff shoved down my throat. To leave it completely would be a psychological amputation, basically. It takes a lot of work and a lot of time. IF I end up leaving at all.
crimzy
Active Member
How in the world did I miss such wonderful controversy???
It appears that this conversation has turned into a discussion of the modern meaning of Christmas. In my opinion, people as a whole take religion way too seriously. People fight, kill, destroy under the guise of religion. People choose arbitrary, silly things to get offended about regarding religion. To get offended over whether someone else uses an "X" in writing Christmas, to get offended that the school vacation is now called winter break as opposed to Christmas break... seriously, why is it that people try so hard to be offended over what other people say or do?
I have a slightly different perspective than others on here because I am a Jew who celebrates Christmas (not religiously). My wife and my kids are Jewish, however my mother-in-law was raised Catholic so the tree, presents and celebration were a very positive memory from my wife's childhood. Our children will celebrate Christmas with their Grandmother and Grandfather, and also at our house.
Last year, I had my first tree ever. We decorated it with lights, decorations, and a lot of Jewish decorations. My family thinks I'm crazy but if that holiday is important to my wife, and she wants to pass it along to our kids, I think it's fine. Truth is that we will give the kids a bunch of presents to our kids on December 24th, in the evening, and will go to the Grandparents for a celebration on the 25th.
For me, Christmas (besides the name), has surpassed religion. While some people may regard it as extremely religious, my in-laws celebrate in a very secular way.
BTW, Mimzy, regarding your argument that the tree is a Pagan symbol, Halloween is a Pagan holiday. Yet most Jews do take part in that one. People tend to pick and choose which parts of the religion are important to them.
Not sure I really made any logical points throughout this, just some religious ramblings.
It appears that this conversation has turned into a discussion of the modern meaning of Christmas. In my opinion, people as a whole take religion way too seriously. People fight, kill, destroy under the guise of religion. People choose arbitrary, silly things to get offended about regarding religion. To get offended over whether someone else uses an "X" in writing Christmas, to get offended that the school vacation is now called winter break as opposed to Christmas break... seriously, why is it that people try so hard to be offended over what other people say or do?
I have a slightly different perspective than others on here because I am a Jew who celebrates Christmas (not religiously). My wife and my kids are Jewish, however my mother-in-law was raised Catholic so the tree, presents and celebration were a very positive memory from my wife's childhood. Our children will celebrate Christmas with their Grandmother and Grandfather, and also at our house.
Last year, I had my first tree ever. We decorated it with lights, decorations, and a lot of Jewish decorations. My family thinks I'm crazy but if that holiday is important to my wife, and she wants to pass it along to our kids, I think it's fine. Truth is that we will give the kids a bunch of presents to our kids on December 24th, in the evening, and will go to the Grandparents for a celebration on the 25th.
For me, Christmas (besides the name), has surpassed religion. While some people may regard it as extremely religious, my in-laws celebrate in a very secular way.
BTW, Mimzy, regarding your argument that the tree is a Pagan symbol, Halloween is a Pagan holiday. Yet most Jews do take part in that one. People tend to pick and choose which parts of the religion are important to them.
Not sure I really made any logical points throughout this, just some religious ramblings.
mimzy
Active Member
Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/2832978
....and how is this different from when a Christian sins?
We just make it sound simple....(Ask for forgiveness)
I was not comparing at ALL. I was correcting Nick's misconception of how sin is dealt with in Judaism. I don't know how sin is really dealt with in Christianity so I cannot possibly compare the two. I was simply telling him how it's dealt with in Judaism.
http:///forum/post/2832978
....and how is this different from when a Christian sins?
We just make it sound simple....(Ask for forgiveness)
I was not comparing at ALL. I was correcting Nick's misconception of how sin is dealt with in Judaism. I don't know how sin is really dealt with in Christianity so I cannot possibly compare the two. I was simply telling him how it's dealt with in Judaism.
mimzy
Active Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2833003
From political threads to religious threads. Aren't these the two topics you are not supposed to discuss in public??
this is ONE religious thread, and as far as I can tell NO ONE here is getting rude or personally attacking anyone else or has become irate or irrational. Can't say as much about other threads. And who, might I ask, can dictate to me or to anyone else what we can or can not talk about in public? The forum is regulated so we keep it family friendly and we've been very good about that thus far in this thread. Good for us! I never participated in the political threads; not my thing. u don't have to participate here, either
http:///forum/post/2833003
From political threads to religious threads. Aren't these the two topics you are not supposed to discuss in public??
this is ONE religious thread, and as far as I can tell NO ONE here is getting rude or personally attacking anyone else or has become irate or irrational. Can't say as much about other threads. And who, might I ask, can dictate to me or to anyone else what we can or can not talk about in public? The forum is regulated so we keep it family friendly and we've been very good about that thus far in this thread. Good for us! I never participated in the political threads; not my thing. u don't have to participate here, either
mimzy
Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2832999
How in the world did I miss such wonderful controversy???
It appears that this conversation has turned into a discussion of the modern meaning of Christmas. In my opinion, people as a whole take religion way too seriously. People fight, kill, destroy under the guise of religion. People choose arbitrary, silly things to get offended about regarding religion. To get offended over whether someone else uses an "X" in writing Christmas, to get offended that the school vacation is now called winter break as opposed to Christmas break... seriously, why is it that people try so hard to be offended over what other people say or do?
I have a slightly different perspective than others on here because I am a Jew who celebrates Christmas (not religiously). My wife and my kids are Jewish, however my mother-in-law was raised Catholic so the tree, presents and celebration were a very positive memory from my wife's childhood. Our children will celebrate Christmas with their Grandmother and Grandfather, and also at our house.
Last year, I had my first tree ever. We decorated it with lights, decorations, and a lot of Jewish decorations. My family thinks I'm crazy but if that holiday is important to my wife, and she wants to pass it along to our kids, I think it's fine. Truth is that we will give the kids a bunch of presents to our kids on December 24th, in the evening, and will go to the Grandparents for a celebration on the 25th.
For me, Christmas (besides the name), has surpassed religion. While some people may regard it as extremely religious, my in-laws celebrate in a very secular way.
BTW, Mimzy, regarding your argument that the tree is a Pagan symbol, Halloween is a Pagan holiday. Yet most Jews do take part in that one. People tend to pick and choose which parts of the religion are important to them.
Not sure I really made any logical points throughout this, just some religious ramblings.
Crimzy, our backgrounds are obviously VERY different. The community I come from is extremely religious. Picking and choosing which parts of the religion you follow are not an option. A tree in a home is unthinkable. We went to school on Christmas day and Easter every single year. And no one, not a single one of us ever celebrated Halloween. It's pagan. Why on EARTH would we have celebrated it??
The lines that have blurred culture and religion don't exist in religious communities because they insulate themselves from the rest of the world. They don't watch secular television or listen to secular music or wear secular clothing or go to secular schools. They create their own bubbles in which to live and thrive. Sure they work in the secular world and contribute to science and the economy, and they vote and they donate money to worthy causes and they support their government and they even join the armed forces but allowing an Xmas tree into their homes they do NOT. It just. doesn't. happen.
http:///forum/post/2832999
How in the world did I miss such wonderful controversy???
It appears that this conversation has turned into a discussion of the modern meaning of Christmas. In my opinion, people as a whole take religion way too seriously. People fight, kill, destroy under the guise of religion. People choose arbitrary, silly things to get offended about regarding religion. To get offended over whether someone else uses an "X" in writing Christmas, to get offended that the school vacation is now called winter break as opposed to Christmas break... seriously, why is it that people try so hard to be offended over what other people say or do?
I have a slightly different perspective than others on here because I am a Jew who celebrates Christmas (not religiously). My wife and my kids are Jewish, however my mother-in-law was raised Catholic so the tree, presents and celebration were a very positive memory from my wife's childhood. Our children will celebrate Christmas with their Grandmother and Grandfather, and also at our house.
Last year, I had my first tree ever. We decorated it with lights, decorations, and a lot of Jewish decorations. My family thinks I'm crazy but if that holiday is important to my wife, and she wants to pass it along to our kids, I think it's fine. Truth is that we will give the kids a bunch of presents to our kids on December 24th, in the evening, and will go to the Grandparents for a celebration on the 25th.
For me, Christmas (besides the name), has surpassed religion. While some people may regard it as extremely religious, my in-laws celebrate in a very secular way.
BTW, Mimzy, regarding your argument that the tree is a Pagan symbol, Halloween is a Pagan holiday. Yet most Jews do take part in that one. People tend to pick and choose which parts of the religion are important to them.
Not sure I really made any logical points throughout this, just some religious ramblings.
Crimzy, our backgrounds are obviously VERY different. The community I come from is extremely religious. Picking and choosing which parts of the religion you follow are not an option. A tree in a home is unthinkable. We went to school on Christmas day and Easter every single year. And no one, not a single one of us ever celebrated Halloween. It's pagan. Why on EARTH would we have celebrated it??
The lines that have blurred culture and religion don't exist in religious communities because they insulate themselves from the rest of the world. They don't watch secular television or listen to secular music or wear secular clothing or go to secular schools. They create their own bubbles in which to live and thrive. Sure they work in the secular world and contribute to science and the economy, and they vote and they donate money to worthy causes and they support their government and they even join the armed forces but allowing an Xmas tree into their homes they do NOT. It just. doesn't. happen.