I just don't get how this guy might be the next leader of the Free World

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2819517
I thijnk Journey is of the same mind set I am on this topic. The government should not be paying health insurance in any form. Instead, those that can't afford it based off income can enrol in medicaid/medicare like everyone else that want's medical and can't afford it has been for years. Instead of creating ANOTHER health program, how about fix the first one created.

I can agree with you on the governemtn no t paying for health insurance. That's why I don't understand why journey would agree with McCain's $5000 tax credit plan. Isn't that essentially 'government paying for health insurance'?
I may have missed something with Obama's plan, but to me he isn't saying he wants a national health program. When I read his healthcare platform, and heard him in the last debate, he stated he wanted to allow Americans to BUY into the same health plan government employees are afforded. He also stated that if you had adequate insurance through your company, nothing would change. You would stay with that insurance. I know nothing about what insurance is offered to government employees, what coverage it provides, who provides the insurance (if it's a government agency or outside insurance provider), and whether they pay anything for their services. However, the key word was BUY into this program. Now what payment he's expecting us to pay, I haven't heard so far. I also don't know what you'll get for that payment. Could this be construde as national healthcare? I guess so if you look at it that the government is providing an arena where you can purchase low-cost health insurance.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Journey (if I may speak for him) doesn't agree with it, but he grees with it over Obama's health plan...that is all.
Obama's is far more than just that.
Example, a family making 30,000 a year total may not have healthcare because they can't fford it. How cheap is the government run heathcare going to be for them to afford it, and if it is cheap enough for them, why would anyone stick with what they have? Pretty soon you have everyone in the same plan....the other companies are out of business and we have a medical gridlock of sorts....this of course is long term down the line.
 

kjr_trig

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2819464
Didn't miss the point of the statement at all. You need a better accountant. If you manage your assests properly and LEGALLY to the extent of the current tax laws, you could pay no more than the average citizen. I do it every year. Don't know if my family makes more than yours, but based on your statement of having to pay $15,000 more a year in taxes, I would say we're not far off.
You may be right about the better accountant needed part.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2819387
So, to clarify;
You liberals say President Bush is the devil who has run the country into the ground. Yet, somehow, I am the one who is overestimating the power of one President?
Look at what happened to our Nation under Jimmy Carter, then tell me one man can't do that much. Look at Venezuela right now, or Cuba in the 60's or Germany in the 30's, or Russia in the 20's.
If one man can't do much, why is Obama running on "Change"?
Out of all those examples, only one is a Democracy. You're now comparing Obama to Communists and Dictators?
Sorry, Jimmy Carter didn't mess the economy up on his own. Even you know how a democracy works. Carter may have proposed the policies that got us in trouble, but it took Congress to pass those proposals in order to make them laws. No one man in our government system has that kind of power.
Sorry, but I've been hearing McCain and Palin using the "Change" word in a lot of their speeches these days. Obama's "Change" is changing the status quo. Changing the government system we've been in for the last 8 years. I sure hope one of them "Changes" things. "Change" IS what we need.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2819507
Uh, because I need medical insurance to cover me and my family in case of a major medical procedure? My wife had a benign tumor last year, and had to get a complete hysterectomy and a partial colon resection. The total cost out the door was over $250,000. With our insurance, we had to pay $8,000. Which one would you choose?
I don't make the rules when it comes to insurance coverage through a company provider. That's the problem with major companies. They want to contribute less and less towards coverage, and expect the employees to pay more of the burden. On top of that, you get fewer services. That's the flaw in McCain's health plan. He thinks $5,000 will provide some great medical coverage. Being an independent contractor, I've seen the rates in my area if I just want to go out and buy insurance on my own. To get the same coverage we get with my wife's company, I'd have to pay another $1,000 on top of McCain's 'tax credit'. And you don't think the insurance companies won't take advantage of knowing people will have to come to them for coverage, since major companies will start dumping medical coverage because it will no longer be pre-tax? Watch rates skyrocket. And remember, McCain wants to give a 'tax credit'. That doesn't necessarily mean you'll get the complete $5,000. If you owe taxes for any reason, that $5,000 can disappear real quick.
So you pay a few thousand dollars a year and your Insurance company paid $250,000 in one year.
Ya, sounds like Insurance is inflated...
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2819585
Out of all those examples, only one is a Democracy. You're now comparing Obama to Communists and Dictators?
Sorry, Jimmy Carter didn't mess the economy up on his own. Even you know how a democracy works. Carter may have proposed the policies that got us in trouble, but it took Congress to pass those proposals in order to make them laws. No one man in our government system has that kind of power.....
A Congress full of Democrats... sound familiar?
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2819572
Journey (if I may speak for him) doesn't agree with it, but he grees with it over Obama's health plan...that is all.
Obama's is far more than just that.
Example, a family making 30,000 a year total may not have healthcare because they can't fford it. How cheap is the government run heathcare going to be for them to afford it, and if it is cheap enough for them, why would anyone stick with what they have? Pretty soon you have everyone in the same plan....the other companies are out of business and we have a medical gridlock of sorts....this of course is long term down the line.
You may be exactly right. The cost of Obama's plan is still a gray area that hasn't been explained. Ironically, would it be a bad thing for some of these insurance companies to fail? If you follow McCain's plan, you may have the opposite effect. Insurance companies know you'll be coming to them with that $5000 in hand to buy insurance. Will prices become competitive, or will they take advantage of the situation, because companies will no longer provide insurance? What will you get for that $5000? Like I said, I'm against government run healthcare. I want to be able to select the doctors I want to go to, and the medical facilities I want those service performed in. If Obama's plan still allows that, then who cares what the plan is?
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2819567
I can agree with you on the governemtn no t paying for health insurance. That's why I don't understand why journey would agree with McCain's $5000 tax credit plan. Isn't that essentially 'government paying for health insurance'?
I may have missed something with Obama's plan, but to me he isn't saying he wants a national health program. When I read his healthcare platform, and heard him in the last debate, he stated he wanted to allow Americans to BUY into the same health plan government employees are afforded. He also stated that if you had adequate insurance through your company, nothing would change. You would stay with that insurance. I know nothing about what insurance is offered to government employees, what coverage it provides, who provides the insurance (if it's a government agency or outside insurance provider), and whether they pay anything for their services. However, the key word was BUY into this program. Now what payment he's expecting us to pay, I haven't heard so far. I also don't know what you'll get for that payment. Could this be construde as national healthcare? I guess so if you look at it that the government is providing an arena where you can purchase low-cost health insurance.
I never said I like McCain's plan. I just pointed out to you it was a tax credit when you were saying it was not.
Obama, on his own website that has been quoted here repeatedly says: "The Obama-Biden plan provides affordable, accessible health care for all Americans..."
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2819589
So you pay a few thousand dollars a year and your Insurance company paid $250,000 in one year.
Ya, sounds like Insurance is inflated...
You obviuosly don't understand the concept of paying for medical insurance, what you get for that cost, and how medical costs have skyrocketed in the last decade. What part of going from $40/month to $260/month didn't you understand?
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2819596
A Congress full of Democrats... sound familiar?
Good one journey. Sorry, that's not what you implied in the thread in question.
Yea, look how great we did with a Republican President and Republican Congress. Sound familiar?
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2819603
You obviuosly don't understand the concept of paying for medical insurance, what you get for that cost, and how medical costs have skyrocketed in the last decade. What part of going from $40/month to $260/month didn't you understand?
What part of inflation don't you understand?
If you saved over $225,000 dollars by paying $260 a month its absurd to claim insurance is inflated. Your company lost over $225,000 by covering you and your wife.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2819606
Good one journey. Sorry, that's not what you implied in the thread in question.
Yea, look how great we did with a Republican President and Republican Congress. Sound familiar?
Want to compare the last 4 years with Carter's?
It is exactly what was implied in my original comment. You all say one man (Obama) can't do much, but then turn around and say one man (President Bush) has destroyed the country. One man, Obama in this case, can do great harm because the Congress will go right along.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2819598
You may be exactly right. The cost of Obama's plan is still a gray area that hasn't been explained. Ironically, would it be a bad thing for some of these insurance companies to fail? If you follow McCain's plan, you may have the opposite effect. Insurance companies know you'll be coming to them with that $5000 in hand to buy insurance. Will prices become competitive, or will they take advantage of the situation, because companies will no longer provide insurance? What will you get for that $5000? Like I said, I'm against government run healthcare. I want to be able to select the doctors I want to go to, and the medical facilities I want those service performed in. If Obama's plan still allows that, then who cares what the plan is?
If a large amount of insurance companies fail because they can not compete with government insurnce which is never worried about the bottomline and profit, what happens to unemployment and all those jobs? Instead of outsourcing jobs over seas, we just remove them...how does that help?
 

bionicarm

Active Member

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2819602
I never said I like McCain's plan. I just pointed out to you it was a tax credit when you were saying it was not.
Obama, on his own website that has been quoted here repeatedly says: "The Obama-Biden plan provides affordable, accessible health care for all Americans..."
To me, tax credit = government handout. They're synomynous.
The government is putting $5000 into you 'tax account' for you to use. If you owe taxes, it decreases them by $5000. If you don't, it's $5000 into your bank account.
The key word is affordable
. It doesn't say he is giving you FREE healthcare. It doesn't say the government is going to control how you use your healthcare. If anything, McCain's plan is more 'government controlled' than Obama's.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2819617
If a large amount of insurance companies fail because they can not compete with government insurnce which is never worried about the bottomline and profit, what happens to unemployment and all those jobs? Instead of outsourcing jobs over seas, we just remove them...how does that help?
Who runs the government insurance plan? Like I asked, is it government run, or is it an outside provider, i.e. USAA. If all Americans have to go to USAA to get their insurance, don't you think they'll need more manpower to assist with providing that coverage? USAA is here in San Antonio. It's the second largest office space in the country next to the Pentagon. The place is like the Borg on Star Trek. It's constantly being added on every time I drive by it.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2819611
Want to compare the last 4 years with Carter's?
It is exactly what was implied in my original comment. You all say one man (Obama) can't do much, but then turn around and say one man (President Bush) has destroyed the country. One man, Obama in this case, can do great harm because the Congress will go right along.
So then what you're saying is we should never let one party have complete control of our government system. So let McCain in since it's a Democratic-led Congress. So if in 2 years, the Republicans take back control of Congress, can we impeach McCain and put a Democrat President in his place?
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2819628
Who runs the government insurance plan? Like I asked, is it government run, or is it an outside provider, i.e. USAA. If all Americans have to go to USAA to get their insurance, don't you think they'll need more manpower to assist with providing that coverage? USAA is here in San Antonio. It's the second largest office space in the country next to the Pentagon. The place is like the Borg on Star Trek. It's constantly being added on every time I drive by it.
True, but there is a key point no one is touching on. Obama never said it would from the company senators get their health insurance from. He said the plan would be LIKE the one they get. He never mentions if it is privately ran and he never mentions the cost of said plan....
 

1journeyman

Active Member

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2819618
To me, tax credit = government handout. They're synomynous.
The government is putting $5000 into you 'tax account' for you to use. If you owe taxes, it decreases them by $5000. If you don't, it's $5000 into your bank account.
The key word is affordable
. It doesn't say he is giving you FREE healthcare. It doesn't say the government is going to control how you use your healthcare. If anything, McCain's plan is more 'government controlled' than Obama's.
McCain's plan gives you a credit to pay for insurance.
Obama's plan regulates how much insurance companies can charge and takes away their right to refuse to coer someone.
No, McCain's plan is not more controlling...
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2819634
So then what you're saying is we should never let one party have complete control of our government system. So let McCain in since it's a Democratic-led Congress. So if in 2 years, the Republicans take back control of Congress, can we impeach McCain and put a Democrat President in his place?
No.
What I'm saying is we should never let the Democrats control anything ever.
 
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