"If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon," said our president.

[theclemsonkid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-treyvon-said-our-president#post_3467127
Clem, so many believe that, which is obviously wrong. I wonder where they get that info from the 911 tapes that have been played over and over. The police dispatcher, asked Zim if he was following the "suspicious person" [my word]. Zim says yes. Then the dispatcher says, "Ok, we don't need you to do that." Zim's response is "Ok.". There is no indication that he continued to follow Trayvon. His statement is that he was returning to his vehicle when Trayvon confronted him, and landed a punch to his nose.
Anyway, police dispatchers are not sworn police officers and have no authority to order anyone not to do anything. And, in this case, the dispatcher didn't give any orders anyway. All of these points are vital when considering any kind of charges against Zimmerman. At this point, based on what is publicly known as of today, I see no reason to charge Zimmerman. If Trayvon were still alive, he may well have been the one arrested for assault and be in jail now. It is not illegal to follow someone or even ask someone walking around the neighborhood, "What are you doing here." It is illegal to assault someone.
Well that's your view... (Not saying I agree with this) but if someone was following me on a dark street at 11pm at night, I could very easily take that as a threat to my personal safety and would feel comfortable defending myself with force. I'm not defending the kid, as by all accounts it sounds like HE is the reason it escalated to what it did. However, the guy who shot him started the whole thing by nosing around and profiling a kid for no reason other than the fact he looked the part. And then instead of simply calling the police and letting them do their job, he decided it was a good idea to do something about it himself by following and confronting the kid, no matter how briefly. It was a myriad of poor choices that led to this outcome, that's for sure.
I don't think a murder conviction is in order, but an involuntary manslaughter at worst, or a criminal complaint for harassment at best should be levied on this guy. You can't kill someone, regardless of the circumstances, if you were the initial aggressor that led to the shooting. If nothing else, this should be a lesson to anyone else who thinks they need to make the same choices that Zim did. Just my two cents.

 

[mantisman51]

I agree, Clem. Someone with a firearm, IMO, has a much heavier burden of responsibility to not engage with another person. I am a vocal supporter of the right to carry, however, I view firearms as a purely defensive tool. That means no following or confronting a person for any reason. When I carry my firearm, I am far more cautious and go out of my way to avoid any sort of conflict. Zimmerman did precipitate what happened, whether his intent was criminal or not, he has some responsibility for causing the situation in the first place. I think some sort of criminal charges should be brought, but I just think that things have got out of control on the side that wants to see him get lynched.

 

[theclemsonkid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-treyvon-said-our-president/20#post_3467275
I agree, Clem. Someone with a firearm, IMO, has a much heavier burden of responsibility to not engage with another person. I am a vocal supporter of the right to carry, however, I view firearms as a purely defensive tool. That means no following or confronting a person for any reason. When I carry my firearm, I am far more cautious and go out of my way to avoid any sort of conflict. Zimmerman did precipitate what happened, whether his intent was criminal or not, he has some responsibility for causing the situation in the first place. I think some sort of criminal charges should be brought, but I just think that things have got out of control on the side that wants to see him get lynched.
I couldn't agree more. Again, I don't think a murder charge is in order, because I don't honestly believe his intent was to kill the kid. It was just something that got completely out of hand, but again, without him following and confronting this kid while carrying, this would be a moot point. I'm not a prosecutor, so I don't know what you would charge him with. But he has to take some responsibility for confronting and following the kid in the first place. It's really no different than getting in a car, and accidentally killing someone because you put yourself in a bad spot by tailing someone, or driving too fast, or erratically. You had no INTENTION of harming anyone, but at the end of the day, someone is dead from your poor choice of actions, and you have to be held somewhat accountable.

 

[ironeagle2006]

However see what is the problem is that Treyvon now that he is dead his Parents are looking to cash in on all this. Have you seen that they want to Trademark all this stuff coming out in his name and such. Shows me one thing they could not keep their son out of trouble now that he is gone all they are seeing is Dollar Signs since htey know that if they filed a Wrongful death case they will be laughed out of court.
Today one of the CBC members aka the COngressional Black Caucaus members got Thrown out of the House Chamber why he Broke the Unbroken rule in the House of the Representatives aka NO HEADGEAR in the house. What did he do wore a Hoodie with then said Treyvon this is for YOU. IL Rep Bobby Rush did that today. Yet 10 Kids where murdered in Chicago last weekend and no outrage from Al Jessie and all the others. GIVE ME A BREAK from what it sounds like this kid was a Thug from his Twitter acct and his Facebook acct and he finally met someone that stood up to him. 150 of his Classmates Ransacked a Walgreens during a Protest for HIM nice huh that happened today and no Media Coverage why it would show what kind of enviroment he was from not the Angel they are trying to make him out to be.

 

[jerthunter]

By finally met someone who 'stood up to him' you must mean finally had someone follow him with a gun and shoot him because he was unable to resolve a situation with an unarmed adolencent without shooting him.
I have no idea how good a kid he was but generally speaking, when someone dies you try to picture them in the best light. If his parents want to remember him as an angel then good for them.

 

[mantisman51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironeagle2006 http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-treyvon-said-our-president/20#post_3467288
However see what is the problem is that Treyvon now that he is dead his Parents are looking to cash in on all this. Have you seen that they want to Trademark all this stuff coming out in his name and such. Shows me one thing they could not keep their son out of trouble now that he is gone all they are seeing is Dollar Signs since htey know that if they filed a Wrongful death case they will be laughed out of court.
Today one of the CBC members aka the COngressional Black Caucaus members got Thrown out of the House Chamber why he Broke the Unbroken rule in the House of the Representatives aka NO HEADGEAR in the house. What did he do wore a Hoodie with then said Treyvon this is for YOU. IL Rep Bobby Rush did that today. Yet 10 Kids where murdered in Chicago last weekend and no outrage from Al Jessie and all the others. GIVE ME A BREAK from what it sounds like this kid was a Thug from his Twitter acct and his Facebook acct and he finally met someone that stood up to him. 150 of his Classmates Ransacked a Walgreens during a Protest for HIM nice huh that happened today and no Media Coverage why it would show what kind of enviroment he was from not the Angel they are trying to make him out to be.
If what Zimmerman said is all 100% true. He is still responsible for the kid's death. The second he got out of his truck with a firearm to follow him, in my opinion, he broke the law. There was no crime being committed and at the point he got out of the truck it made all the other dominoes fall. Personally, I would be seriously pissed if someone was following me around and I would go to them and ask if there was a problem, so I don't blame Davis for that. Zimmerman made a huge mistake leaving that truck and Davis made a huge mistake getting froggy with a stranger. So with that the question becomes then what was the aggregating factor, and it still falls on an armed man tailing another man who had committed no crime. Does Zimmerman have the legal obligation to know that his actions could lead to a confrontation? I say yes and the fact he had a firearm further aggregates that motivating factor. So after some thought, and no legal training, I would think Zimmerman should be charged with reckless endangerment resulting in a death for having a firearm and putting himself in contact with the victim.

 

[ironeagle2006]

Sorry Matis but as Someone that has had people Jump on a Truck he Drove back in 1999 in LA and then again in Chicago when I was almost Robbed 2 times How did I solve the ISSUE called I grabbed gears and basically gave the THUG Black on my step a choice either GET THE HELL OFF OR ENJOY A 65 MPH ride on a Freeway. Both times they made the choice to JUMP to save their own A$$. Sorry but when they act like that for a load of Ice Cream in the LA case and a load of Peaches in Chicago sorry but Al Jessie and the rest of them NEED TO SHUT THE HELL UP AND MAYBE CALM THEM DOWN FIRST til the Police are done.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-treyvon-said-our-president/20#post_3467274
Well that's your view... (Not saying I agree with this) but if someone was following me on a dark street at 11pm at night, I could very easily take that as a threat to my personal safety and would feel comfortable defending myself with force. I'm not defending the kid, as by all accounts it sounds like HE is the reason it escalated to what it did. However, the guy who shot him started the whole thing by nosing around and profiling a kid for no reason other than the fact he looked the part. And then instead of simply calling the police and letting them do their job, he decided it was a good idea to do something about it himself by following and confronting the kid, no matter how briefly. It was a myriad of poor choices that led to this outcome, that's for sure.
I don't think a murder conviction is in order, but an involuntary manslaughter at worst, or a criminal complaint for harassment at best should be levied on this guy. You can't kill someone, regardless of the circumstances, if you were the initial aggressor that led to the shooting. If nothing else, this should be a lesson to anyone else who thinks they need to make the same choices that Zim did. Just my two cents.
You are making some assumptions here. According to the police Zimmerman claims he was returning to his vehicle when Martin attacked him from behind. He wasn't following the kid at the time the altercation began.
Second how do you know the kid was being racially profiled? As far as I know there hasn't been info released as to why Zimmerman thought the kid was suspicious. There could be a lot of reasons why Zimmerman thought he was suspicious other than the way he looked.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-treyvon-said-our-president/20#post_3467310
If what Zimmerman said is all 100% true. He is still responsible for the kid's death. The second he got out of his truck with a firearm to follow him, in my opinion, he broke the law. There was no crime being committed and at the point he got out of the truck it made all the other dominoes fall. Personally, I would be seriously pissed if someone was following me around and I would go to them and ask if there was a problem, so I don't blame Davis for that. Zimmerman made a huge mistake leaving that truck and Davis made a huge mistake getting froggy with a stranger. So with that the question becomes then what was the aggregating factor, and it still falls on an armed man tailing another man who had committed no crime. Does Zimmerman have the legal obligation to know that his actions could lead to a confrontation? I say yes and the fact he had a firearm further aggregates that motivating factor. So after some thought, and no legal training, I would think Zimmerman should be charged with reckless endangerment resulting in a death for having a firearm and putting himself in contact with the victim.
Since when is it illegal to follow someone?
Zimmerman claims he was returning to his truck when the kid attacked him. If that is a fact then I don't think Zimmerman should be charged. The cops should be able to use the 911 calls to create a timeline that could shed light on that.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-treyvon-said-our-president/20#post_3467342
Since when is it illegal to follow someone?
Zimmerman claims he was returning to his truck when the kid attacked him. If that is a fact then I don't think Zimmerman should be charged. The cops should be able to use the 911 calls to create a timeline that could shed light on that.
That has been my point. It isn't illegal to follow anyone. And it isn't illegal to ask someone what they are doing here. It is illegal to punch someone in the nose (breaking it), flooring them, then start bashing their head against the pavement.
I do agree with mantis that taking the high road and being very responsible with your behavior while carrying a gun is the thing to do, however, that value is not necessarily legally binding.
In Florida, we have a "stand your ground law". That law comes into play the minute someone reasonably believes their life is threatened. If what Zim claims is the case, then his situation falls under that law. He will and should walk. Even if he should have been a more responsible person, and not tail Trayvon. If he didn't physically attack Trayvon first, and was himself attacked first, then the law should stand with Zimmerman.
Again, there is absolutely no evidence at this point that Zim was still following Trayvon after the police dispatcher told him that he didn't need to do that. He claims that he was not following him at the time of the confrontation.
There is a lot of crime in Fla. I for one am glad for the stand your ground law. Coincidentally, violent crimes in Fla have dropped noticeably in the past few years since that law has been in place. Its nice to know that I won't go to jail if I shoot someone who is breaking into my house. Until the day comes that we can totally rely on the police for protection, then I say law abiding citizens have that right without fear of the legal system coming back to bite them.

 

[oscardeuce]

Anyone hear about this young couple? All they did was go on a date.....
Very graphic descriptons of their murder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom

 

[reefraff]

One of the reasons for make my day laws is to prevent an honest citizen from having to lawyer up in the even they use their firearm to protect themselves. You could make the case that in this instance Deputy Fife escalated the situation by following the kid even though it isn't unreasonable to expect a member of neighborhood watch to keep tabs on someone they find suspicious. Even so that doesn't mean he acted in an illegal manner. It means he might need to prove his innocence in court. But what law did he break? Even with no make my day law he would have been allowed to use deadly force to defend himself against someone pounding his head into the sidewalk. Unless he was carrying illegally they are going to have a heck of a time convicting him of anything unless they can prove he continued following the kid after the 911 dispatcher said they didn't need him to do that. Even then it's going to be a low level beef but because of all the race hustlers getting involved in this they are going to go out of their way to charge the guy with something no matter what the evidence shows.

 

[jerthunter]

If you can't trust the word on a man who just shot an unarmed kid whose word can you trust? I mean really, its not like someone would lie and make up a story to stay out of jail. Had he been responsible I am sure he would have admitted that right away to the police.
So basically it sounds like with this law you can kill someone as long as you FEEL threatened, and as long as you leave no witnessess they have to take your word for it. And just to make sure its done in self defense you could pick a fight, then start to walk away and say "he attacked me!"
Someone mentioned that there is no evidence that this kid was followed because of how he looked, he was suspicious, which makes sense since I usually follow people who smell suspicious, or even those who feel suspicious.

 

[jerthunter]

Http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-video-shows-no-blood-bruises-george-194108003--abc-news-topstories.html
Looks like he had that wolverine mutant healing factor.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-treyvon-said-our-president/20#post_3467353
That has been my point. It isn't illegal to follow anyone. And it isn't illegal to ask someone what they are doing here. It is illegal to punch someone in the nose (breaking it), flooring them, then start bashing their head against the pavement.
I do agree with mantis that taking the high road and being very responsible with your behavior while carrying a gun is the thing to do, however, that value is not necessarily legally binding.
In Florida, we have a "stand your ground law". That law comes into play the minute someone reasonably believes their life is threatened. If what Zim claims is the case, then his situation falls under that law. He will and should walk. Even if he should have been a more responsible person, and not tail Trayvon. If he didn't physically attack Trayvon first, and was himself attacked first, then the law should stand with Zimmerman.
Again, there is absolutely no evidence at this point that Zim was still following Trayvon after the police dispatcher told him that he didn't need to do that. He claims that he was not following him at the time of the confrontation.
There is a lot of crime in Fla. I for one am glad for the stand your ground law. Coincidentally, violent crimes in Fla have dropped noticeably in the past few years since that law has been in place. Its nice to know that I won't go to jail if I shoot someone who is breaking into my house. Until the day comes that we can totally rely on the police for protection, then I say law abiding citizens have that right without fear of the legal system coming back to bite them.
Put yourself in Treyvon's situation. What would you do? What if this was your 17 year old son or daughter that was being followed by a suspicious car for no reason. You're just walking down the street, sipping your tea, heading back to your relative's home, when all of a sudden, this car appears with some guy looking at you. It appears Treyvon initially ignored him and kept walking. Now the guy comes out and confronts him for whatever reason. What do you think a 6'2" kid that apparently had some displine issues is going to do? I imagine he didn't back down to Zimmerman. At what point did Zimmerman show the gun? Again, in that scenario, if someone is showing or waving a gun at you, on a dark street with no one else around, are you just going to walk off expecting this armed person to just get back into his car and drive away, or are you going to defend yourself and make sure he doesn't shoot you in the back? Knowing Zimmerman's history as a sort of Neighborhood Watch Vigillante, do you think he simply asked Treyvon what he was doing, then said "Oh OK, have a nice night."? I'm willing to bet he was showing or handling this firearn in a manner that was quite intimidating to Treyvon. Regardless if he backed off and turned around to go to his car, if I was in that scenario, I may have well jumped the guy myself to make sure he didn't have a chance to shoot me. At this point, it's He said, He said. Unfortunately, one of the individuals in the altercation is dead, and doesn't have the opportunity to tell his side of the story. You're taking the stand of "Well Zimmerman said Treyvon jumped him when his back is turned, so he MUST be telling the truth." I think Jerthunter said it best. Why should we take his word over Treyvon's? Is there some proof he's this upstanding citizen that would never hurt anyone? Look at the video Jerthunter provided. Doesn't look like he was roughed up to me.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerthunter http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-treyvon-said-our-president/20#post_3467391
If you can't trust the word on a man who just shot an unarmed kid whose word can you trust? I mean really, its not like someone would lie and make up a story to stay out of jail. Had he been responsible I am sure he would have admitted that right away to the police.
So basically it sounds like with this law you can kill someone as long as you FEEL threatened, and as long as you leave no witnessess they have to take your word for it. And just to make sure its done in self defense you could pick a fight, then start to walk away and say "he attacked me!"
Someone mentioned that there is no evidence that this kid was followed because of how he looked, he was suspicious, which makes sense since I usually follow people who smell suspicious, or even those who feel suspicious.
Yep, a 17 year old could never be a threat to an adult right?
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/28/justice/florida-tourists-murder-trial/index.html
As far as suspicious are you familiar with the term "He ACTED suspicious"?

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-treyvon-said-our-president/20#post_3467395
Put yourself in Treyvon's situation. What would you do? What if this was your 17 year old son or daughter that was being followed by a suspicious car for no reason. You're just walking down the street, sipping your tea, heading back to your relative's home, when all of a sudden, this car appears with some guy looking at you. It appears Treyvon initially ignored him and kept walking. Now the guy comes out and confronts him for whatever reason. What do you think a 6'2" kid that apparently had some displine issues is going to do? I imagine he didn't back down to Zimmerman. At what point did Zimmerman show the gun? Again, in that scenario, if someone is showing or waving a gun at you, on a dark street with no one else around, are you just going to walk off expecting this armed person to just get back into his car and drive away, or are you going to defend yourself and make sure he doesn't shoot you in the back? Knowing Zimmerman's history as a sort of Neighborhood Watch Vigillante, do you think he simply asked Treyvon what he was doing, then said "Oh OK, have a nice night."? I'm willing to bet he was showing or handling this firearn in a manner that was quite intimidating to Treyvon. Regardless if he backed off and turned around to go to his car, if I was in that scenario, I may have well jumped the guy myself to make sure he didn't have a chance to shoot me. At this point, it's He said, He said. Unfortunately, one of the individuals in the altercation is dead, and doesn't have the opportunity to tell his side of the story. You're taking the stand of "Well Zimmerman said Treyvon jumped him when his back is turned, so he MUST be telling the truth." I think Jerthunter said it best. Why should we take his word over Treyvon's? Is there some proof he's this upstanding citizen that would never hurt anyone? Look at the video Jerthunter provided. Doesn't look like he was roughed up to me.
Where are the witnesses to back up a single thing you assumed?
Here are a couple FACTS
Zimmerman was treated at the scene by paramedics.
A witness says it was Zimmerman who was screaming for help as the "kid" stood over him beating on him
At this point nobody knows which person started the physical altercation and that is what is going to make or break this case.
However the more info that comes out the more credible Zimmerman's story seems.
It's also interesting to note that when Martin was suspended from school one time it was after he was seen on the security cameras "acting suspicious" and later seen tagging a locker. When he was searched looking for the marker he used to tag the locker they found a bunch of women's jewelry and a flattened out screwdriver in his back pack. He claimed none of it was his and claimed someone gave it to him. Yeah, right. Maybe the kid was casing the neighborhood. We'll never know. Can't convict him without evidence. Just like Zimmerman.

 

[jerthunter]

Yep, a 17 year old could never be a threat to an adult right?
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/28/justice/florida-tourists-murder-trial/index.html
As far as suspicious are you familiar with the term "He ACTED suspicious"? 
I am sure a 17 COULD be a threat to an adult, just not THIS one. Zimmerman must be a total wimp not to be able to handle this without a gun.
As far as acting suspecious, I suppose that could be the case. Maybe the kid was doing ranger rolls and ducking behind trees on his way back home. Unfortunately I haven't seen or heard anything where the behavior was described. I am sure Zimmerman could easily explain what about the kid was suspicious.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerthunter http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-treyvon-said-our-president/20#post_3467424
I am sure a 17 COULD be a threat to an adult, just not THIS one. Zimmerman must be a total wimp not to be able to handle this without a gun.
As far as acting suspecious, I suppose that could be the case. Maybe the kid was doing ranger rolls and ducking behind trees on his way back home. Unfortunately I haven't seen or heard anything where the behavior was described. I am sure Zimmerman could easily explain what about the kid was suspicious.
Why not this one? The photos the family released where from when he was like 13. The later pictures show a pretty good sized kid. Supposedly 6' 3". Zimmerman does sound like a whimp which makes his self defense case stronger.
Suspicious, as in looking in windows as you walk past houses while talking on a cell phone. I mean what is suspicious to you? We all have different opinions on that I am sure.

 

[mantisman51]

Because I think my words are being taken out of context: 1) From 3 witnesses, including a 13 y/o who claims to have seen it happen, Zimmerman had disengaged from pursuing Martin and was heading back to his vehicle. 2) Martin became the aggressor and started pursuing Zimmerman and attacked Zimmerman which is when Zimmerman apparently pulled and fired his weapon. Making the killing justified. 3) My only contention is that Zimmerman should have never left his vehicle to put himself in the situation of a confrontation, a confrontation that resulted in the death of Martin. Seems clear to me the act of pursuing Martin, for however long, was the catalyst for the shooting and that act and not the shooting itself is reckless and could be a punishable act. 4) I agree with a fellow on FB who said if the blacks who are being given a public forum to vent racist hate and inciting violence are demonstrative of blacks as a whole, we have a whole lot bigger problem in America than this one shooting. And the r*p@, torture and murder of the white couple in Knoxville was a whole lot worse than this, yet "black leaders" have plead for mercy for the blacks who did the most vile kind of torture while they were alive. Read about that case that Oscar2 posted. They were tortured so badly, according to one of the killers, they begged to be killed. But where was the outrage by the black community then? Why weren't they screaming for justice then? Why were, and are still, they screaming for the killers to be released? As Ruben has said on a few topics, some perspective would be a good thing about now.