Is a value added tax coming our way?

[dragonzim]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3261982
Looks like Arizona is two-for-two this week for controversial legislation. They also are trying to pass a bill whereby 'immigrant's' have to physically carry all documentation to prove they are in this country legally. I thought any immigrant who is legally in this country already had to have a Green Card in their possession? How exactly are the authorities going to be able to tell whose 'legal' and whose 'illegal'? Can you say Racial Profiling? I imagine the cops in Phoenix and Tuscon will have a field day with this one. Want to clear out a crowded Mexican restaurant so you don't have to wait on a table? Just walk in and yell "Immigracion!" and watch them scatter.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/....html?hpt=Sbin
Sounds like a great law! We could use something like that here in NY as well.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3262010
Your right, I look at the whole birther deal and the politicians who seem to be afraid to stand up to them and it does influence how I vote. I don't agree though with what Arizona is doing at all, something needs to be done about the border and it needs to be done by the federal government. I just could not imagine being a 2nd or 3rd generation American and getting pulled over and asked for proof of citizenship, honestly the cops would get a heartfelt go screw yourself and then you get arrested, this is going to happen and then the state of Arizona is going to have an ugly lawsuit they can't possibly come out winning. I see a real double standard here, especially with all the gun rights and Tea Party stuff going on, it really makes it look like the Constitution only counts if you are white IMHO.
Fishtaco
Although I don't appreciate your racist implication, the question of what threshhold, enforcement of how can you tell if he's an immigrant or not. Is a legitimate problem.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3262010
Your right, I look at the whole birther deal and the politicians who seem to be afraid to stand up to them and it does influence how I vote. I don't agree though with what Arizona is doing at all, something needs to be done about the border and it needs to be done by the federal government. I just could not imagine being a 2nd or 3rd generation American and getting pulled over and asked for proof of citizenship, honestly the cops would get a heartfelt go screw yourself and then you get arrested, this is going to happen and then the state of Arizona is going to have an ugly lawsuit they can't possibly come out winning. I see a real double standard here, especially with all the gun rights and Tea Party stuff going on, it really makes it look like the Constitution only counts if you are white IMHO.
Fishtaco
It's written right into the law they can't use race. I am sure there will be a lot of crying wolf but Maracopa county Sherrifs are already doing this. The feds refusal to act on this is costing the states a bundle. They have to do something.

 

[fishtaco]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3262023
Although I don't appreciate your racist implication, the question of what threshhold, enforcement of how can you tell if he's an immigrant or not. Is a legitimate problem.
I'm just calling them like I see them, the same people who will say they are having their Constitutional rights taken away by the current adminstration think laws like this are okay because they won't be affected. All the claims comparing Obama to Hitler and Stalin, yet it is conservatives who are passing a law so you have to make sure your papers are in order if you travel in the state of Arizona. My grandfather was not white and I get mighty tan in the summer and have dark hair and brown eyes and there is no way I am ever going to feel compelled to prove to some random cop I am a citizen. I would like Obama to get off his butt and do something about this issue however, even things we might never know about concerning the drug and people smugglers. Those predator drones seem to be working pretty well in the war, maybe it is time the Border Patrol gets a couple dozen.
Fishtaco

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3262023
Although I don't appreciate your racist implication, the question of what threshhold, enforcement of how can you tell if he's an immigrant or not. Is a legitimate problem.
Problem is, it will become a racial issue. Like Fishtaco said, how is a cop going to tell if a guy standing on a street corner talking Spanish to a buddy is legal or not just by looking at them? They can't. So which one's do you walk up to and ask for thier 'papers'? Do you only ask the one's that 'look' illegal -- ragged clothes, messy hair, etc., or do you ask anybody that has a skin tone of a Hispanic? I know, they can hand out little Mexican Flag patches that all the legals can sew onto their clothes. Just like the Nazi's handed out the Star Of David to all the Jews.

 

[fishtaco]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3262025
It's written right into the law they can't use race. I am sure there will be a lot of crying wolf but Maracopa county Sherrifs are already doing this. The feds refusal to act on this is costing the states a bundle. They have to do something.
LOL, okay then, why don't they just make it mandatory for all AZ residents to carry their papers on them 24/7 and make a mandatory citizen check for everybody whenever they have any contact with the cops? Oh wait!

 

[fishtaco]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3262030
Problem is, it will become a racial issue. Like Fishtaco said, how is a cop going to tell if a guy standing on a street corner talking Spanish to a buddy is legal or not just by looking at them? They can't. So which one's do you walk up to and ask for thier 'papers'? Do you only ask the one's that 'look' illegal -- ragged clothes, messy hair, etc., or do you ask anybody that has a skin tone of a Hispanic? I know, they can hand out little Mexican Flag patches that all the legals can sew onto their clothes. Just like the Nazi's handed out the Star Of David to all the Jews.

LOL, when the cops can walk up to a Tea Party rally and start asking for "papers" and those people comply then I will be a lot more supportive of this law.
Fishtaco

 

[stdreb27]

yawn, first off I didn't know being a beaner meant I was a different race.
You're from Oregon, so I wouldn't expect you to really understand since you're not exposed to it every day, but spotting a real mexican, vs mexican that has been here a couple of generations is pretty easy. And has nothing to do with skin color at all...
You can base it off of language, which I think would be a more effective tool, in identifying immigrants. Especially those pesky canadians... Where they look like us but sure talk funny. (I'm only joking about the canadians)
But look I agree, how are you going to enforce this? Take me for example I'm a second gen american. I'm bilingual, how am I going to prove that I'm a citizen without carrying around my passport. I could very easily get checked. And I'll be danged if they're gonna drag me to the police station to check if I'm legal or not, because I simply don't have the paperwork to prove I'm a citizen? I guess I'd go have to find my social security card? There are just these huge can of worms when you go into making immigrants prove their status on the spot, because we are such a melting pot.

 

[fishtaco]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3262038
yawn, first off I didn't know being a beaner meant I was a different race.
You're from Oregon, so I wouldn't expect you to really understand since you're not exposed to it every day, but spotting a real mexican, vs mexican that has been here a couple of generations is pretty easy. And has nothing to do with skin color at all...
You can base it off of language, which I think would be a more effective tool, in identifying immigrants. Especially those pesky canadians... Where they look like us but sure talk funny. (I'm only joking about the canadians)
But look I agree, how are you going to enforce this? Take me for example I'm a second gen american. I'm bilingual, how am I going to prove that I'm a citizen without carrying around my passport. I could very easily get checked. And I'll be danged if they're gonna drag me to the police station to check if I'm legal or not, because I simply don't have the paperwork to prove I'm a citizen? I guess I'd go have to find my social security card? There are just these huge can of worms when you go into making immigrants prove their status on the spot, because we are such a melting pot.
Hey I'm not trying to attack you or Reef here, I just find this sort of thing so frustrating. All the congressman and woman from the border states should be camped out on Obama's doorstep till they get some help. Your point is the same as mine, I can't imagine being dog tired after working all week and get pulled over on a friday for going 5 miles over the speed limit and have some cop who is having a bad day ask me for my passport or *** card and prove my citizenship. I also think even stricter laws and fines are in order for those who hire illegals till the practice stops, but that won't help the violence on the border and that needs the feds to deal with it. We do have a pretty good green card population around here, but when I see them during the summer at the store buying a cold drink after picking berries all day I don't have any issues because they are earning every dime them make.
Fishtaco

 

[slice]

Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3262040
All the congressman and woman from the border states should be camped out on Obama's doorstep till they get some help.
Read: Until the voters elect someone with the balls to enforce law. This is a federal matter, and this situation will persist as long as we, as citizens, allow it. We've allowed it for decades.
Root cause: Mexico is exporting its social and economic failure.
Misdirection: US Immigration law is seen by some as racist, cruel and heartless. The real heartlessness is causing such a multitude of Mexican citizens to feel they must leave their homeland and family; break our laws, risk life and limb, just to find a job to feed their family. THERE is where the anger is appropriately directed.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3262038
yawn, first off I didn't know being a beaner meant I was a different race.
You're from Oregon, so I wouldn't expect you to really understand since you're not exposed to it every day, but spotting a real mexican, vs mexican that has been here a couple of generations is pretty easy. And has nothing to do with skin color at all...
You can base it off of language, which I think would be a more effective tool, in identifying immigrants. Especially those pesky canadians... Where they look like us but sure talk funny. (I'm only joking about the canadians)
But look I agree, how are you going to enforce this? Take me for example I'm a second gen american. I'm bilingual, how am I going to prove that I'm a citizen without carrying around my passport. I could very easily get checked. And I'll be danged if they're gonna drag me to the police station to check if I'm legal or not, because I simply don't have the paperwork to prove I'm a citizen? I guess I'd go have to find my social security card? There are just these huge can of worms when you go into making immigrants prove their status on the spot, because we are such a melting pot.
It is? Since when? Maybe down in Corpus. Dude, I live in thick of it. I'm the minority here in San Antonio. Trust me, both the legals and illegals use the same Tex Mex slang and language around here. The cops in here wouldn't have a problem findng the illegals. All they have to do is go down to a specific street corner downtown where all the day laborers stand around waiting for the trucks to pull up looking for help. Guess you need to let me know what the secrets are so I can tell which one's are legal or not.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3262040
Hey I'm not trying to attack you or Reef here, I just find this sort of thing so frustrating. All the congressman and woman from the border states should be camped out on Obama's doorstep till they get some help. Your point is the same as mine, I can't imagine being dog tired after working all week and get pulled over on a friday for going 5 miles over the speed limit and have some cop who is having a bad day ask me for my passport or *** card and prove my citizenship. I also think even stricter laws and fines are in order for those who hire illegals till the practice stops, but that won't help the violence on the border and that needs the feds to deal with it. We do have a pretty good green card population around here, but when I see them during the summer at the store buying a cold drink after picking berries all day I don't have any issues because they are earning every dime them make.
Fishtaco
I think the anti-immigration camp on the conservative side, (when they get away from national security) abandon their conservative principles. Because all the BS of oh they're stealing our jobs, and other protectionist retoric are simply limitations to the free market.
If it were my show to run it would be really simple, you're hear to work, welcome, you can't get any government $$, and if you commit a crime you're out, black listed. If you're a criminal you can't come in...

 

[slice]

Originally Posted by mrdc
http:///forum/post/3261952
I thought Obama said awhile back that no one making under $250k would see any tax increases.
One last thought regarding the OP, then I will shut up about it.
A VAT tax is tool to tax everyone, a way to make businesses collect it for you, an excuse to demonize them for doing it, and all the while, deny you've done anything wrong.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3262050
It is? Since when? Maybe down in Corpus. Dude, I live in thick of it. I'm the minority here in San Antonio. Trust me, both the legals and illegals use the same Tex Mex slang and language around here. The cops in here wouldn't have a problem findng the illegals. All they have to do is go down to a specific street corner downtown where all the day laborers stand around waiting for the trucks to pull up looking for help. Guess you need to let me know what the secrets are so I can tell which one's are legal or not.
The issue isn't legal or not, it is just dried off their back (I can say it I'm a beaner) vs been living in the U.S. for a couple generations. Which is the problem that fishtaco and I thing with the legislation. And I can one up you... I was born and raised in el paso...

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Slice
http:///forum/post/3262068
One last thought regarding the OP, then I will shut up about it.
A VAT tax is tool to tax everyone, a way to make businesses collect it for you, an excuse to demonize them for doing it, and all the while, deny you've done anything wrong.
The VAT tax is a democrat dream, they get to charge a tax, and the voters will never see it... Because it is all lumped into the price of the items you produce in your country...
Personally I think a VAT tax might help immigration. After all, thanks to NAFTA there are no tariffs imposed on items imported from mexico. What is going to stop all the major producers to start reinvesting in maquilladores? Creating a crapload of jobs in mexico...

 

[mrdc]

Originally Posted by Slice
http:///forum/post/3262068
One last thought regarding the OP, then I will shut up about it.
A VAT tax is tool to tax everyone, a way to make businesses collect it for you, an excuse to demonize them for doing it, and all the while, deny you've done anything wrong.
I understand how the government uses the VAT tax and then tries to hide behind it but it pisses me off. I also don't like the reasoning behind it ... to bring the deficit down. I think there are many other things that can be done (i.e. eliminated) to cut spending and bring the deficit down some before we start taxing.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3262029
I'm just calling them like I see them, the same people who will say they are having their Constitutional rights taken away by the current adminstration think laws like this are okay because they won't be affected. All the claims comparing Obama to Hitler and Stalin, yet it is conservatives who are passing a law so you have to make sure your papers are in order if you travel in the state of Arizona. My grandfather was not white and I get mighty tan in the summer and have dark hair and brown eyes and there is no way I am ever going to feel compelled to prove to some random cop I am a citizen. I would like Obama to get off his butt and do something about this issue however, even things we might never know about concerning the drug and people smugglers. Those predator drones seem to be working pretty well in the war, maybe it is time the Border Patrol gets a couple dozen.
Fishtaco
You can keep using the left wing talking points all you want but they need to have a reason to question a person.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3262031
LOL, okay then, why don't they just make it mandatory for all AZ residents to carry their papers on them 24/7 and make a mandatory citizen check for everybody whenever they have any contact with the cops? Oh wait!
If you have contact with the cops they have the authority to make you prove who you are now.

 

[slice]

Originally Posted by mrdc
http:///forum/post/3262076
I understand how the government uses the VAT tax and then tries to hide behind it but it pisses me off. I also don't like the reasoning behind it ... to bring the deficit down. I think there are many other things that can be done (i.e. eliminated) to cut spending and bring the deficit down some before we start taxing.
I don't think the deficit has anything to do with it. Just like the Health Care takeover, its all about control.

 

[reefraff]

There's a school of thought among some of those Marxist professors Obama sought out in college that says you have to bankrupt the current system before you can replace it with socialism. Not sure if that's the Ossiah's plan but we're sure headed that way.