Is a value added tax coming our way?
- Thread starter mrdc
- Start date
stdreb27
Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3262079
If you have contact with the cops they have the authority to make you prove who you are now.
I dunno about AZ but in texas a driver's license doesn't prove citizenship or immigration status. Technically now it should, but legally it isn't recognized, because for a long time they'd issue a dl to anyone as long as they passed the tests to drive.
So I'd have to carry something else to prove that, like a passport or a SSC. The question isn't whether it is right to make an immigrant to prove their status, the problem is how are the mutts like me going to prove their status?
http:///forum/post/3262079
If you have contact with the cops they have the authority to make you prove who you are now.
I dunno about AZ but in texas a driver's license doesn't prove citizenship or immigration status. Technically now it should, but legally it isn't recognized, because for a long time they'd issue a dl to anyone as long as they passed the tests to drive.
So I'd have to carry something else to prove that, like a passport or a SSC. The question isn't whether it is right to make an immigrant to prove their status, the problem is how are the mutts like me going to prove their status?
slice
Active Member
Originally Posted by mrdc
http:///forum/post/3262086
I agree but he can't say that. The government is always trying to distract you with the left hand while the right hand is taking your wallet.
Yep, all part of that Hopey, Changey thing....
http:///forum/post/3262086
I agree but he can't say that. The government is always trying to distract you with the left hand while the right hand is taking your wallet.
Yep, all part of that Hopey, Changey thing....
bionicarm
Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3262069
The issue isn't legal or not, it is just dried off their back (I can say it I'm a beaner) vs been living in the U.S. for a couple generations. Which is the problem that fishtaco and I thing with the legislation. And I can one up you... I was born and raised in el paso...
I don't understand your argument. What has being either a 'wetback' (yes that's the degratory term you wanted to use) or a person who's been living here a couple years, have to do with the cops being able to distinguish whose legal or not? I'm sorry, but unless you have some sixth sense that tells you that a person who looks Hispanic is one of these 'people who snuck across the border without proper documentation', there's no way you can easily distinguish between the two.
I had the foundation on my house done last year, and every one of the workers was Hispanic. I didn't ask the foreman about any of them, and could care less where he hired them from, as long as they did the job they were supposed to do. On one of the days, I get a knock on my door. The foreman was standing there with a purse in his hand that looked familiar. He said that when he was dropping off his workers the previous day, he saw one of them get out of the truck with this bag in his hand. When he approached the guy to ask him where it came from, he dropped the bag and started running. A cop happened to be in the area, and stopped the guy. Found out he was an illegal with fake papers. The purse was my wife's that she'd left in her car, and she didn't lock it before she came into the house the day before. When he described the one who took it, I told him that I remember talking to him on one of their breaks the same day he apparently took the purse. Seemed like a nice guy to me, and he even spoke English quite well.
I've lived in San Antonio since 1980. Several years ago, I worked for a company that had manufacturing plants down in Mexico, and I used to go down there all the time to do IT work. If any of the people I met and worked with down in Acuna, Juarez, Piedras Negras, Puebla, or Monterrey were to pass me on the street in San Antonio today, I couldn't tell you if they were here legally or not. So how the cops in Arizona are going to tell the difference is a mystery to me.
http:///forum/post/3262069
The issue isn't legal or not, it is just dried off their back (I can say it I'm a beaner) vs been living in the U.S. for a couple generations. Which is the problem that fishtaco and I thing with the legislation. And I can one up you... I was born and raised in el paso...
I don't understand your argument. What has being either a 'wetback' (yes that's the degratory term you wanted to use) or a person who's been living here a couple years, have to do with the cops being able to distinguish whose legal or not? I'm sorry, but unless you have some sixth sense that tells you that a person who looks Hispanic is one of these 'people who snuck across the border without proper documentation', there's no way you can easily distinguish between the two.
I had the foundation on my house done last year, and every one of the workers was Hispanic. I didn't ask the foreman about any of them, and could care less where he hired them from, as long as they did the job they were supposed to do. On one of the days, I get a knock on my door. The foreman was standing there with a purse in his hand that looked familiar. He said that when he was dropping off his workers the previous day, he saw one of them get out of the truck with this bag in his hand. When he approached the guy to ask him where it came from, he dropped the bag and started running. A cop happened to be in the area, and stopped the guy. Found out he was an illegal with fake papers. The purse was my wife's that she'd left in her car, and she didn't lock it before she came into the house the day before. When he described the one who took it, I told him that I remember talking to him on one of their breaks the same day he apparently took the purse. Seemed like a nice guy to me, and he even spoke English quite well.
I've lived in San Antonio since 1980. Several years ago, I worked for a company that had manufacturing plants down in Mexico, and I used to go down there all the time to do IT work. If any of the people I met and worked with down in Acuna, Juarez, Piedras Negras, Puebla, or Monterrey were to pass me on the street in San Antonio today, I couldn't tell you if they were here legally or not. So how the cops in Arizona are going to tell the difference is a mystery to me.
stdreb27
Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3262091
I don't understand your argument. What has being either a 'wetback' (yes that's the degratory term you wanted to use) or a person who's been living here a couple years, have to do with the cops being able to distinguish whose legal or not? I'm sorry, but unless you have some sixth sense that tells you that a person who looks Hispanic is one of these 'people who snuck across the border without proper documentation', there's no way you can easily distinguish between the two.
I had the foundation on my house done last year, and every one of the workers was Hispanic. I didn't ask the foreman about any of them, and could care less where he hired them from, as long as they did the job they were supposed to do. On one of the days, I get a knock on my door. The foreman was standing there with a purse in his hand that looked familiar. He said that when he was dropping off his workers the previous day, he saw one of them get out of the truck with this bag in his hand. When he approached the guy to ask him where it came from, he dropped the bag and started running. A cop happened to be in the area, and stopped the guy. Found out he was an illegal with fake papers. The purse was my wife's that she'd left in her car, and she didn't lock it before she came into the house the day before. When he described the one who took it, I told him that I remember talking to him on one of their breaks the same day he apparently took the purse. Seemed like a nice guy to me, and he even spoke English quite well.
I've lived in San Antonio since 1980. Several years ago, I worked for a company that had manufacturing plants down in Mexico, and I used to go down there all the time to do IT work. If any of the people I met and worked with down in Acuna, Juarez, Piedras Negras, Puebla, or Monterrey were to pass me on the street in San Antonio today, I couldn't tell you if they were here legally or not. So how the cops in Arizona are going to tell the difference is a mystery to me.
No, no, no, you're missing the point. Fishtaco was asking in his salacious republicans are racist post, How are cops going to enforce this? And said what about someone who has been here for 2 or 3 generations. That has a good tan and dark hair. Are normal citizens going to be collateral damage and effected by a bill like this. Then went on to say, I think there are gonna be a lot of american's hassled as a result of this bill. Which I tend to agree with.
So I'm not saying it is easy to look at a Mexican and automatically tell whether he's legal or not. I'm saying it is easy to tell between someone who is fresh off the truck, back just having been dried off (a humorous twist on the term if I wanted to use the "derogatory" term I would have) vs someone who is an American with Mexican heritage...
Basically they don't correlate. More like -although it is easy to tell the difference between an american with mexican heritage, I still think that american can and would end up being hassled for papers because of this bill.
http:///forum/post/3262091
I don't understand your argument. What has being either a 'wetback' (yes that's the degratory term you wanted to use) or a person who's been living here a couple years, have to do with the cops being able to distinguish whose legal or not? I'm sorry, but unless you have some sixth sense that tells you that a person who looks Hispanic is one of these 'people who snuck across the border without proper documentation', there's no way you can easily distinguish between the two.
I had the foundation on my house done last year, and every one of the workers was Hispanic. I didn't ask the foreman about any of them, and could care less where he hired them from, as long as they did the job they were supposed to do. On one of the days, I get a knock on my door. The foreman was standing there with a purse in his hand that looked familiar. He said that when he was dropping off his workers the previous day, he saw one of them get out of the truck with this bag in his hand. When he approached the guy to ask him where it came from, he dropped the bag and started running. A cop happened to be in the area, and stopped the guy. Found out he was an illegal with fake papers. The purse was my wife's that she'd left in her car, and she didn't lock it before she came into the house the day before. When he described the one who took it, I told him that I remember talking to him on one of their breaks the same day he apparently took the purse. Seemed like a nice guy to me, and he even spoke English quite well.
I've lived in San Antonio since 1980. Several years ago, I worked for a company that had manufacturing plants down in Mexico, and I used to go down there all the time to do IT work. If any of the people I met and worked with down in Acuna, Juarez, Piedras Negras, Puebla, or Monterrey were to pass me on the street in San Antonio today, I couldn't tell you if they were here legally or not. So how the cops in Arizona are going to tell the difference is a mystery to me.
No, no, no, you're missing the point. Fishtaco was asking in his salacious republicans are racist post, How are cops going to enforce this? And said what about someone who has been here for 2 or 3 generations. That has a good tan and dark hair. Are normal citizens going to be collateral damage and effected by a bill like this. Then went on to say, I think there are gonna be a lot of american's hassled as a result of this bill. Which I tend to agree with.
So I'm not saying it is easy to look at a Mexican and automatically tell whether he's legal or not. I'm saying it is easy to tell between someone who is fresh off the truck, back just having been dried off (a humorous twist on the term if I wanted to use the "derogatory" term I would have) vs someone who is an American with Mexican heritage...
Basically they don't correlate. More like -although it is easy to tell the difference between an american with mexican heritage, I still think that american can and would end up being hassled for papers because of this bill.
mrdc
Active Member
Back to the VAT. If this idea goes any further, I wonder how the tax is applied and to what amount. I found this to be very informative:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax
stdreb27
Active Member
Originally Posted by mrdc
http:///forum/post/3262122
Back to the VAT. If this idea goes any further, I wonder how the tax is applied and to what amount. I found this to be very informative:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax
Actually in concept I do like the VAT vs our income tax system, in the sense that it taxes people based off of consumption not earnings. So it screws the little guy just as much as it screws the big guy, if applied equally to all products, (which it probably won't be) But that equity would be a lot easier than creating equity in an income tax system like ours. A national sales tax would be even better, because people can actually see how much they are paying in taxes VS the current system where you may not even look at your check, then you have all these deductions and stuff, or a VAT tax that sorta does the same thing except the tax is hidden... The problem is a VAT tax can discourage exports....
http:///forum/post/3262122
Back to the VAT. If this idea goes any further, I wonder how the tax is applied and to what amount. I found this to be very informative:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax
Actually in concept I do like the VAT vs our income tax system, in the sense that it taxes people based off of consumption not earnings. So it screws the little guy just as much as it screws the big guy, if applied equally to all products, (which it probably won't be) But that equity would be a lot easier than creating equity in an income tax system like ours. A national sales tax would be even better, because people can actually see how much they are paying in taxes VS the current system where you may not even look at your check, then you have all these deductions and stuff, or a VAT tax that sorta does the same thing except the tax is hidden... The problem is a VAT tax can discourage exports....
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3262087
I dunno about AZ but in texas a driver's license doesn't prove citizenship or immigration status. Technically now it should, but legally it isn't recognized, because for a long time they'd issue a dl to anyone as long as they passed the tests to drive.
So I'd have to carry something else to prove that, like a passport or a SSC. The question isn't whether it is right to make an immigrant to prove their status, the problem is how are the mutts like me going to prove their status?
If you produce a license and can speak English probable cause for further questioning is out the door. We gotta do something to get a handle on this crap. Ain't going to do that with sanctuary city policies where if a cop pulls someone over and they have no license and doesn't speak English they aren't even allowed to question them about their status.
Until the feds pull their heads out and come up with a reform program that doesn't include amnesty it's going to be up to the states to take care of the problem. So far in Colorado the influx of crime hasn't been bad but according to a buddy who's a country mountie in AZ it's just getting crazy down there.
http:///forum/post/3262087
I dunno about AZ but in texas a driver's license doesn't prove citizenship or immigration status. Technically now it should, but legally it isn't recognized, because for a long time they'd issue a dl to anyone as long as they passed the tests to drive.
So I'd have to carry something else to prove that, like a passport or a SSC. The question isn't whether it is right to make an immigrant to prove their status, the problem is how are the mutts like me going to prove their status?
If you produce a license and can speak English probable cause for further questioning is out the door. We gotta do something to get a handle on this crap. Ain't going to do that with sanctuary city policies where if a cop pulls someone over and they have no license and doesn't speak English they aren't even allowed to question them about their status.
Until the feds pull their heads out and come up with a reform program that doesn't include amnesty it's going to be up to the states to take care of the problem. So far in Colorado the influx of crime hasn't been bad but according to a buddy who's a country mountie in AZ it's just getting crazy down there.
mrdc
Active Member
Ok now, which one of you gloom and doomers wrote this ...
http://www.cnbc.com/id/36704832
http://www.cnbc.com/id/36704832
mrdc
Active Member
So what are the issues with starting some sort of natioanl identification card that you have to keep on you at all times? I know for one with me is the part about having it on you at all times. I know when I am driving to have my driver's license. I would hate to be walking down the street somewhere and be stopped for my id card and not have it. I'm just thinking out loud ...
Of course if I don't have my card, I have no clue where they plan to deport me.
Of course if I don't have my card, I have no clue where they plan to deport me.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3262124
Actually in concept I do like the VAT vs our income tax system, in the sense that it taxes people based off of consumption not earnings. So it screws the little guy just as much as it screws the big guy, if applied equally to all products, (which it probably won't be) But that equity would be a lot easier than creating equity in an income tax system like ours. A national sales tax would be even better, because people can actually see how much they are paying in taxes VS the current system where you may not even look at your check, then you have all these deductions and stuff, or a VAT tax that sorta does the same thing except the tax is hidden... The problem is a VAT tax can discourage exports....
And when you add it on top of income and sales taxes it creates a lot more paperwork for businesses. It also opens the door to cheating at every level. I'd be more in favor of a national sales tax. You can see what you are paying in taxes. Nearly all states already collect sales taxes so you really arent adding any new paperwork.
http:///forum/post/3262124
Actually in concept I do like the VAT vs our income tax system, in the sense that it taxes people based off of consumption not earnings. So it screws the little guy just as much as it screws the big guy, if applied equally to all products, (which it probably won't be) But that equity would be a lot easier than creating equity in an income tax system like ours. A national sales tax would be even better, because people can actually see how much they are paying in taxes VS the current system where you may not even look at your check, then you have all these deductions and stuff, or a VAT tax that sorta does the same thing except the tax is hidden... The problem is a VAT tax can discourage exports....
And when you add it on top of income and sales taxes it creates a lot more paperwork for businesses. It also opens the door to cheating at every level. I'd be more in favor of a national sales tax. You can see what you are paying in taxes. Nearly all states already collect sales taxes so you really arent adding any new paperwork.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by mrdc
http:///forum/post/3262129
So what are the issues with starting some sort of natioanl identification card that you have to keep on you at all times? I know for one with me is the part about having it on you at all times. I know when I am driving to have my driver's license. I would hate to be walking down the street somewhere and be stopped for my id card and not have it. I'm just thinking out loud ...
Of course if I don't have my card, I have no clue where they plan to deport me.
A national ID card is beginning to make more sense with ID theft and terrorists trying to come in. I think I would rather just see them come up with a standard for driver's licenses or state ID cards.
http:///forum/post/3262129
So what are the issues with starting some sort of natioanl identification card that you have to keep on you at all times? I know for one with me is the part about having it on you at all times. I know when I am driving to have my driver's license. I would hate to be walking down the street somewhere and be stopped for my id card and not have it. I'm just thinking out loud ...
Of course if I don't have my card, I have no clue where they plan to deport me.
A national ID card is beginning to make more sense with ID theft and terrorists trying to come in. I think I would rather just see them come up with a standard for driver's licenses or state ID cards.
stdreb27
Active Member
Originally Posted by mrdc
http:///forum/post/3262128
Ok now, which one of you gloom and doomers wrote this ...
http://www.cnbc.com/id/36704832
He's right, you have 2 choice, a bunch of small corrections, or a really really big one...
http:///forum/post/3262128
Ok now, which one of you gloom and doomers wrote this ...
http://www.cnbc.com/id/36704832
He's right, you have 2 choice, a bunch of small corrections, or a really really big one...
bionicarm
Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3262136
A national ID card is beginning to make more sense with ID theft and terrorists trying to come in. I think I would rather just see them come up with a standard for driver's licenses or state ID cards.
http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppt...card_3926.html
http:///forum/post/3262136
A national ID card is beginning to make more sense with ID theft and terrorists trying to come in. I think I would rather just see them come up with a standard for driver's licenses or state ID cards.
http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppt...card_3926.html
fishtaco
Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3262067
I think the anti-immigration camp on the conservative side, (when they get away from national security) abandon their conservative principles. Because all the BS of oh they're stealing our jobs, and other protectionist retoric are simply limitations to the free market.
If it were my show to run it would be really simple, you're hear to work, welcome, you can't get any government $$, and if you commit a crime you're out, black listed. If you're a criminal you can't come in...
I would have no problems with any of that, the only problem I see is that is it way too simple and the government would never go for it.
Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3262067
I think the anti-immigration camp on the conservative side, (when they get away from national security) abandon their conservative principles. Because all the BS of oh they're stealing our jobs, and other protectionist retoric are simply limitations to the free market.
If it were my show to run it would be really simple, you're hear to work, welcome, you can't get any government $$, and if you commit a crime you're out, black listed. If you're a criminal you can't come in...
I would have no problems with any of that, the only problem I see is that is it way too simple and the government would never go for it.
Fishtaco
aquaknight
Active Member
The problem with the nat'l ID card, is when that RFID chip gets turned on/our info put on there, without us knowing....
oscardeuce
Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3261960
What the politicians love about a VAT is it's like Carbon Monoxide. You have no idea it's there until it's too late. This tax doesn't show up on a receipt like a sales tax so consumers will direct their anger at big business for increasing prices rather than the politicians for increasing taxes, yet again.
Yes!
Everyone should pay quaterly taxes WITHOUT withholding. The price on the gas station sign should be BEFORE taxes. I'd love to hear everyone complain about writing a quaterly tax check.
http:///forum/post/3261960
What the politicians love about a VAT is it's like Carbon Monoxide. You have no idea it's there until it's too late. This tax doesn't show up on a receipt like a sales tax so consumers will direct their anger at big business for increasing prices rather than the politicians for increasing taxes, yet again.
Yes!
Everyone should pay quaterly taxes WITHOUT withholding. The price on the gas station sign should be BEFORE taxes. I'd love to hear everyone complain about writing a quaterly tax check.
oscardeuce
Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3262067
I think the anti-immigration camp on the conservative side, (when they get away from national security) abandon their conservative principles. Because all the BS of oh they're stealing our jobs, and other protectionist retoric are simply limitations to the free market.
If it were my show to run it would be really simple, you're hear to work, welcome, you can't get any government $$, and if you commit a crime you're out, black listed. If you're a criminal you can't come in...
Let's use the right words it is anti ILLEGAL immigration. Heck my family came here in 1736 and 1914. All I ask is the new immigrants follow the rules my family did.
http:///forum/post/3262067
I think the anti-immigration camp on the conservative side, (when they get away from national security) abandon their conservative principles. Because all the BS of oh they're stealing our jobs, and other protectionist retoric are simply limitations to the free market.
If it were my show to run it would be really simple, you're hear to work, welcome, you can't get any government $$, and if you commit a crime you're out, black listed. If you're a criminal you can't come in...
Let's use the right words it is anti ILLEGAL immigration. Heck my family came here in 1736 and 1914. All I ask is the new immigrants follow the rules my family did.
stdreb27
Active Member
Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/3262716
Let's use the right words it is anti ILLEGAL immigration. Heck my family came here in 1736 and 1914. All I ask is the new immigrants follow the rules my family did.
. No those were the words I meant to use. Anti-immigration camp. I'm not talking about the folks who just want the U.S. Government to enforce their own laws. I think there is a distinction.
But 1730's has immigration laws?
http:///forum/post/3262716
Let's use the right words it is anti ILLEGAL immigration. Heck my family came here in 1736 and 1914. All I ask is the new immigrants follow the rules my family did.
. No those were the words I meant to use. Anti-immigration camp. I'm not talking about the folks who just want the U.S. Government to enforce their own laws. I think there is a distinction.
But 1730's has immigration laws?
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3262810
. No those were the words I meant to use. Anti-immigration camp. I'm not talking about the folks who just want the U.S. Government to enforce their own laws. I think there is a distinction.
But 1730's has immigration laws?
I don't know of a whole lot of anti immigration folks but I don't hang with rednecks
. I do think when out unemployment rate breaks 6% we should cut back on Visas and perhaps drop quotas. I don't think we need to be bringing in competition for jobs in tough times but other than that bring them in, they tend to be more educated and knowledgeable about the country than people who were born here.
http:///forum/post/3262810
. No those were the words I meant to use. Anti-immigration camp. I'm not talking about the folks who just want the U.S. Government to enforce their own laws. I think there is a distinction.
But 1730's has immigration laws?
I don't know of a whole lot of anti immigration folks but I don't hang with rednecks