Is everyone equal in heaven?

shogun323

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3111013
Why is it that almost all organized religions seem to stick to this 10% of your income tenet? Is this percentage stated somewhere as gospel?
It is Mosiac Law from the book of Malachi talking to the Levite tribe. It is no where else in the Bible. Basically tithing (10%) is something the modern church came up with.
New testament talks about giving and giving abundantly.
 

mkroher

Member
Originally Posted by Flower
http:///forum/post/3111018

This needs to be said, so I am saying it.
I do not believe in the easter bunny, or the santa clause. I do not spend my time convincing kids they do not exist. I think it is silly and they are just kids.
You seem to protest too much. If you really thought the Bible was just a bunch of silly stories, you wouldn't care. Why don't you just admit that you want someone to convince you, and go seek out a religious advisor who is willing to help you seek out the truth you hunger for..
I protest because I feel sorry for people like you that are brainwashed.
Know what? Yes.. I Do want someone to convince me. I want someone to convince me with HARD evidence. You can't just point to the bible and say "have faith, this is the truth" because that book was written by drunk people that want to control people. Resting your desire to seek truth by a book means you accept what people tell you and there is no other explanation. Remember when we thought the world was flat? Spinoza's god holds more water than your god does. Einstein even agreed with him. Einstein wasn't religious, he was spiritual. There's a difference.
 

zman1

Active Member
Originally Posted by mkroher
http:///forum/post/3111036
.. I Do want someone to convince me. I want someone to convince me with HARD evidence...
We may define faith as a firm belief in something for which there is not evidence. Where there is evidence, no one speaks of faith. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence. - Bertrand Russell
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3111013
My interpretation of tithing would be that God would want his followers to give back to the church to 'enhance their morality' and assist with continuing His word. But where exactly in the bible does it say it has to be a monetary gift? Why doesn't volunteering your time to the church satisfy your 'tithing debt'? Why is it that almost all organized religions seem to stick to this 10% of your income tenet? Is this percentage stated somewhere as gospel?
One of my employees handed a form to my payroll person not to long ago that was from his Catholic church. He hadn't been keeping up with his monthly tithings, so they gave him a form to fill out that allows them to pull his 'donation' directly from his paycheck. Kind of like a Direct Deposit To God. There's nothing I could do to keep him from doing it, since he was redirecting his money to some valid bank account. It's his money to spend however he likes...
I would like to clear the air on what Tithing really is according to scripture.
First of all you remove 1 for every 50…1/50 is the tithe, of the 1/50 the first 10% is Holy and given to the Cohen (High Priest), from what is left over another 10% is taken out for the Levi (Regular Priest) from what is left over another 10% is saved for yourself to bring to the Temple and buy whatever your heart desires to eat and rejoice before the Holy One. What is left over after the 3 tithes are taken is saved for 3 years…then given to the widows, the fatherless and the poor among us.
The temple is gone, there is no High priest, nor Levitical Priesthood. Therefore the tithe has stopped. The daily offerings have stopped.
The church is big business. 10% of all income is robbery. It is not what was commanded by scripture, such a huge tithe was never demanded by any but the Catholic church to build the cathedrals using the line “the tenth shall be Holy unto the Lord.” Lev 27:22..When martin Luther protested, creating the Protestant Christian religions, he kept the 10% as a tithe on the people.
Oral law dictated the 3 tithes, using a Torah (scripture) formula found in several passages. It is a huge study, and there is neither time nor space to play Rabbi here. Peter warned that the church would become corrupted and that they would make merchandise of the people. 2 Peter 2:3
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by mkroher
http:///forum/post/3111036
I protest because I feel sorry for people like you that are brainwashed.
Know what? Yes.. I Do want someone to convince me. I want someone to convince me with HARD evidence. You can't just point to the bible and say "have faith, this is the truth" because that book was written by drunk people that want to control people. Resting your desire to seek truth by a book means you accept what people tell you and there is no other explanation. Remember when we thought the world was flat? Spinoza's god holds more water than your god does. Einstein even agreed with him. Einstein wasn't religious, he was spiritual. There's a difference.
Happy Seeking! May The Holy One, Blessed be he, grant your request. LOL..Einstein was a Jew who honored Passver, and Yom Kippur
 

tang master

Member
Originally Posted by mkroher
http:///forum/post/3111036
I protest because I feel sorry for people like you that are brainwashed.
Know what? Yes.. I Do want someone to convince me. I want someone to convince me with HARD evidence. You can't just point to the bible and say "have faith, this is the truth" because that book was written by drunk people that want to control people. Resting your desire to seek truth by a book means you accept what people tell you and there is no other explanation. Remember when we thought the world was flat? Spinoza's god holds more water than your god does. Einstein even agreed with him. Einstein wasn't religious, he was spiritual. There's a difference.
you know, i am not sure if people who wrote the bible were drunk or not, but neither do you. the bible happens to be the most historicaly accurate book ever written and it is pretty amazing with that being said, that many people contributed to its writting. Another point is that there has been no known "faults" in the bible which gives people reason to belive that it is truth. if you have any questions please dont hesitate to ask.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by meowzer
http:///forum/post/3111024
I work for 2 churches....so I know the "business" end.....all the money that is tithed goes back into the church operations and the community...we make nothing.....YES volunteering is very important, but it will not pay the electric bill, water, etc........Do you have any clue how expensive literature is? music? Do you have any idea how many people can't pay their utilities, that we are able to assist??? I can go on...but will not...
BELIEVE me....church employees do NOT make a lot of money.....I also draft members accounts every month for "their" convenience, not ours.
Church communities have maintained thier presence for decades quite well on the sweat and tears of their members. No money was needed to keep them going. Your church and staff may not make anything in return for your hard work, but look at all these megachurches out there where you have these 'minister's' who drive $50,000 cars and live in million dollar mansions. What about the Mormons and their outlandish temples? Churches like yours are more the exception than the rule.
As for your expenses -- there's always a way to cut corners. Literature and music? Buy one book and make copies of just the information you need for the sermons. Why spend $30 for 200 music books when you can buy one and spend another $100 to just copy the songs for the next Sunday sermon? Why not make your 'flock' just download the songs and print them out before attending service?
I applaud you for assisting your members with their utilities when they are stuggling financially. However, I hope you're not one of the 'anti-Obamites' who lambasts him about being a Socialist. Your 'assistance' sounds eerily familiar....
 

mkroher

Member
Originally Posted by Flower
http:///forum/post/3111062
Happy Seeking! May The Holy One, Blessed be he, grant your request. LOL..Einstein was a Jew who honored Passver, and Yom Kippur

I said "want" because I'm open minded. Unlike you christians, who deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but freak out when when someone denies the existence of yours. Oh.. and do YOU have the HARD evidence? Let me guess... the bible? I'm not going to just "accept" that your bible is the truth, and start going to church to sing gay songs and give away my hard earned money. I have to pay taxes and watch my money go to waste as it is (thanks Obama).
My co-worker thinks that "god spoke to him" because his daughter survived a tragic accident. Maybe his daughter lived because the surgeon went to school and he's good at what he does. If I can hammer a nail in straight, was there divine intervention, or am I good at hammering nails?
 

meowzer

Moderator
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3111069
Church communities have maintained thier presence for decades quite well on the sweat and tears of their members. No money was needed to keep them going. Your church and staff may not make anything in return for your hard work, but look at all these megachurches out there where you have these 'minister's' who drive $50,000 cars and live in million dollar mansions. What about the Mormons and their outlandish temples? Churches like yours are more the exception than the rule.
As for your expenses -- there's always a way to cut corners. Literature and music? Buy one book and make copies of just the information you need for the sermons. Why spend $30 for 200 music books when you can buy one and spend another $100 to just copy the songs for the next Sunday sermon? Why not make your 'flock' just download the songs and print them out before attending service?
I applaud you for assisting your members with their utilities when they are stuggling financially. However, I hope you're not one of the 'anti-Obamites' who lambasts him about being a Socialist. Your 'assistance' sounds eerily familiar....
LOL...we would copy music...but it's illegal....ever hear of copywrite laws
Anyway we don't just assist members in need....we assist anyone..
"My flock"....LOL....I do the finances...I WORK for the churches...I never said I was a member of either of them.....As a matter of fact, my religious, political or anyother beliefs that I have are MINE....
and I have never brought up Obama
, He has nothing to do with my beliefs, work ethics, or how I choose to "assist" a needy person
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by mkroher
http:///forum/post/3111071
I said "want" because I'm open minded. Unlike you christians, who deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but freak out when when someone denies the existence of yours. Oh.. and do YOU have the HARD evidence? Let me guess... the bible? I'm not going to just "accept" that your bible is the truth, and start going to church to sing gay songs and give away my hard earned money. I have to pay taxes and watch my money go to waste as it is (thanks Obama).
My co-worker thinks he "god spoke to him" because his daughter survived a tragic accident. Maybe his daughter lived because the surgeon went to school and he's good at what he does. If I can hammer a nail in straight, was there divine intervention, or am I good at hammering nails?

What are you raging at me for??? I am not a modern Christian, I loathe it as a false religion. I am a seeker like you. However my seeking has taken me to understand the Bible as accurate. It is the religions that are full if lies.
I take what the religion is based on and put it to the test. Judaism actually stands, but all the others have fallen on their faces. I have read and studied the Quran, I have read and studied the Bible so many times I lost count years ago. When you say …I want…the ONLY one with the answer is G-d. You can ask him you know. He isn’t deaf, he just ignores ignorance and challenges. Try asking him nicely.
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
You guys all get your panties tied up so easily.
I'm going to address a few key issues I read about
:
1. The bible and it's 'evolution' by way of those like constantine is one of the biggest arguments in the bible society. But what you don't know is that we still have the originals... the ones that were written before constantine ever got his hands on them, and they have been verified. People who spends their lives studying the bible are seeking truth. Those who translate it have the same desire... to make it as accurate as possible. Every scroll that is found is scrutinized by thousands of philosophers, archaeologists, and the like. We don't want to have some candyland book where people just randomly threw a bunch of stuff together. What good would that do for anyone? The bible is the #1 most copied book in this world... that simply wouldn't be the case if it was all garbage.
2. Prove the bible is true? If we could prove anything, it would be fact. But we can't prove evolution and we can't prove intelligent design and we can't prove whether or not there's a Great Giant Chicken on the throne in the clouds. The truth is that all we have are the writings of the past. Whether we can prove these writings is not really possible because we can't ask the writer and we can't witness what the writer wrote about. All we can do, however, is look at the sheer mass of writings, which all tell the same story. Some of you have heard me say this before, but I'll use Alexander the Great as an example. EVERYONE knows Alexander the Great. He's in history books all over the world. But the truth is that we only have ONE (1)(Single)(not two or more) historical record that Alexander the Great existed. There were over 900 written accounts telling of Jesus' Death and Resurrection. There are over 24,000 documents we have proving and reinforcing the validity of the writings in the New Testament alone. Is this proof? Of course not! But would 24,000 people's stories, all strikingly similar, help me to believe? Yes. I'm not going to believe what the Mormons say because it was written by a dude named Joseph Smith in 1830. It's only one story, not 24,000. It's recent. It's not archaeologically sound - e.g. we never found the gold coins.
3. Hitler could very well be in heaven. We hear things like "streets paved with gold" and "pearly gates," but that's just the product of a God trying to describe His home in a way that we would understand. You have to look at every verse encompassing Heaven allegorically. The bible says you'll have many treasures in heaven for the good works you do here... that doesn't mean you should mow your neighbors lawn every week so you can build up your divine Mr. T necklace collection. It simply means that there is value in doing good works down here. The treasures are yet another allegory which God uses to try and get us to understand HIS world in OUR language. Treasures can mean anything... My daughter is my most valuable treasure on this whole earth... that's not monetary, but it is valuable. I can only assume that I will appreciate something of similar "value" up in heaven.
4. But you have to be VERY careful about "works" with reference to heaven. The second ANY religion says you have to DO something to get to heaven, it's blasphemy. First, it means that there's an opportunity for people to compete with each other, and that's ultimately a divisive tendency - being better than your brother. It's rooted out of vanity and lust for material things, and that clearly contradicts what Jesus came down to do. The whole reason Jesus came down and died was to put us all on the same level... he even put Himself on the same level as us. It's blasphemy whenever you try to break that up. That's another reason I don't believe mormonism... you have to do works in order to gain salvation. Seems like a shady operation when someone ELSE tells you what God wants for your life. That's between you and God. The bible shows us how others did it.
 

tang master

Member
thats great! If evolution is infact true tho, i am sure it is only possible because it is GODS will and his design mechanism. Oh snap, i bet you guys have never heard a christian propose that idea.lol.
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
I just realized I never finished my Hitler bit. I think we're all on the same level in heaven. There's no judgement in Heaven. It's beyond that point - Judgement already happened and those in heaven made the cur - any bad that took place while we were here on earth is water under the bridge. Although Hitler orchestrated the holocaust, if he's in heaven, it won't matter to anyone else. He made it... he's there... he's on the team.
What I really wonder about is what we'll do in Heaven. There's no Starbucks... no sandwich shops... I think I read something about us having jobs but I'm not sure. There might be baseball in heaven - not sure. I can send you all a letter when I get there... jk
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Tang Master
http:///forum/post/3111104
thats great! If evolution is infact true tho, i am sure it is only possible because it is GODS will and his design mechanism. Oh snap, i bet you guys have never heard a christian propose that idea.lol.
Man, I've heard all kinds of stuff. That is a very popular one. It's how they can justify believing in both.
But I think it's kind of arrogant of us to think we have everything figured out... "Oh yeah, I know who you are, God. I know your tricks. The evolutionary process to make me. Yep, I got you figured out." This is the almighty God we're talking about... we're insects in comparison. And yet we've got it all figured out. I think the first step toward wisdom is the acceptance that you'll never know it all.
However, we should never be discouraged from learning and pursuing truth. Ignorance is the biggest obstacle everyone faces when pursuing truth. I wish we could search for truth unabated. I wish we could look at things without baggage.
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3111069
Church communities have maintained thier presence for decades quite well on the sweat and tears of their members. No money was needed to keep them going. Your church and staff may not make anything in return for your hard work, but look at all these megachurches out there where you have these 'minister's' who drive $50,000 cars and live in million dollar mansions. What about the Mormons and their outlandish temples? Churches like yours are more the exception than the rule.
You're speaking my language, Bionic. I hate it when pastors turn their churches into money factories. I used to be a part of a church where the pastor said that a 10% tithe was an old testament standard, and we're living in the new testament times, so he said the new testament tithe was 27%. What the hell?????? Where do you get 27%????? Take that and the other 30% for taxes and you've got less than half of your paycheck to live off. My stomach literally turns with disgust just for simply remembering that sermon. I remember when he also had people "pledge" certain amounts of money on a weekly basis for the year, and if they fell behind, he would send them a letter saying they're behind on their "pledge"... what a jerk.
You bastardize the bible when you use religion for monetary gain. Unfortunately, many churches are guilty of such bastardization.
 

uneverno

Active Member
Just to throw a little science into it - the root of the word tithe and tenth is the same word:
before 900; (n.) ME ti(ghe)the, OE teogotha - tenth; (v.) ME tithen, OE teogothian to take the tenth of, derivation of the noun.
The Dictionary
(For those that don't know, ME = Middle English, OE = Old English)
Language has more uses than just communication. It can also tell us where we came from.
In addition, to call something other than the original document historically accurate is very dangerous for a variety of reasons.
Firstly: Over time perception of history changes and as a result its account is modified.
Secondly: History is generally written by the victors. The history of the absorbed population is relegated to an annotation or a footnote. Its impact on the victorious society cannot be ignored, however.
 

flower

Well-Known Member

Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3111116
I just realized I never finished my Hitler bit. I think we're all on the same level in heaven. There's no judgement in Heaven. It's beyond that point - Judgement already happened and those in heaven made the cur - any bad that took place while we were here on earth is water under the bridge. Although Hitler orchestrated the holocaust, if he's in heaven, it won't matter to anyone else. He made it... he's there... he's on the team.
What I really wonder about is what we'll do in Heaven. There's no Starbucks... no sandwich shops... I think I read something about us having jobs but I'm not sure. There might be baseball in heaven - not sure. I can send you all a letter when I get there... jk
LOL..That is the problem my friend …THINKING instead of basing your belief on something. If what a person dreams up is the reality…I am sure Hitler is in that place, he believed all kinds of nutty stuff.
I have to push this one, why would you THINK it is blasphemy to say you have to DO something to enter eternal life? How about this one… G-d hands out As everyone passes, and as life unfolds, you lose points according to your own evils.
The truth however is not all that easy to explain. How do you know what “good” is? How do you know what “evil” is? What is “good works”? If you ask the right questions, then you on the road to finding the right answer.
That same Bible you are hanging your hat on so to speak teaches you NOT to lean to your own understanding. So what you think is irrelevant.
It is that Bible you just got finished acknowledging, which teaches you that you need good works, that there are ranks, and that you earn rewards.
Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do
that I may inherit eternal life?
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mark 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, ……
Another example:
Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do
to inherit eternal life?
Luke 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law
? how readest thou?
Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luke 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do
, and thou shalt live.
Also…the quote Love the Lord with all your might…is from the Shama prayer that every religious Jew recites every morning and evening.
Jesus never told anyone that DOING something to inherit eternal life was in error. He would surely have warned if thinking that was blasphemy.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by meowzer
http:///forum/post/3111074
LOL...we would copy music...but it's illegal....ever hear of copywrite laws
Anyway we don't just assist members in need....we assist anyone..
"My flock"....LOL....I do the finances...I WORK for the churches...I never said I was a member of either of them.....As a matter of fact, my religious, political or anyother beliefs that I have are MINE....
and I have never brought up Obama
, He has nothing to do with my beliefs, work ethics, or how I choose to "assist" a needy person
You legally bought the first book. There's no law that says you can't copy the words of a song out of it. My daughter's school band does this all the tiem. The school district and Texas Regional Music Board does it for students to have the sheet music to practice for competitions.
My reference to Obama was meant as a 'jab' - comparing your church assisting those who are needy, to Obama giving out the same kind of assistance to needy Americans. Sounds like your church is practicing Socialism..
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3111137
Just to throw a little science into it - the root of the word tithe and tenth is the same word:
The Dictionary
(For those that don't know, ME = Middle English, OE = Old English)
Language has more uses than just communication. It can also tell us where we came from.
In addition, to call something other than the original document historically accurate is very dangerous for a variety of reasons.
Firstly: Over time perception of history changes and as a result its account is modified.
Secondly: History is generally written by the victors. The history of the absorbed population is relegated to an annotation or a footnote. Its impact on the victorious society cannot be ignored, however.
Hey, you learn something every day. Guess that explains the '10 percent rule'.
 
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