reef diver
Active Member
ok thanks, its a logical explanation, but biology is rarely logical
It's true... a reef safe ich med that actually works!
- Thread starter crimzy
- Start date
sepulatian
Moderator
Originally Posted by cwgibson
sorry about your banner;would you recommend keeping one in a 150g?
Yes, it would be quite comfortable in a 150, I wouldn't add one to a reef tank though. They are labled as reef safe with caution, but personally I wouldn't trust any butterfly in a reef system. A FOWLR system would be good though.
sorry about your banner;would you recommend keeping one in a 150g?
Yes, it would be quite comfortable in a 150, I wouldn't add one to a reef tank though. They are labled as reef safe with caution, but personally I wouldn't trust any butterfly in a reef system. A FOWLR system would be good though.
sepulatian
Moderator
Originally Posted by Beth
No, because part of the parasite's lifecycle includes swimming in the water and laying on surfaces. Ich does not appear on fish on cue. Its a living organism; some ich will be in the water, some on fish. Its not timed like clockwork to follow a convenient cycle.
There is no trick to eliminating ich...just don't introduce it to begin. Here is where QT enters the picture. If you QT and eliminate ich [and other diseases] before it ever gets to your display, you will maintain healthy fish in a healthy, non-medicated fish tank.
Beth I completely agree with you! Sometimes we accidently get a parasite into the system though from time to time. Whether the qt period wasn't quite long enough or it is introduced on rock or other surfaces we wouldn't expect it to. Prevention is of course key, but once the problem does occur then it is time to think about options. This is one of those topics that can be argued about forever.
No, because part of the parasite's lifecycle includes swimming in the water and laying on surfaces. Ich does not appear on fish on cue. Its a living organism; some ich will be in the water, some on fish. Its not timed like clockwork to follow a convenient cycle.
There is no trick to eliminating ich...just don't introduce it to begin. Here is where QT enters the picture. If you QT and eliminate ich [and other diseases] before it ever gets to your display, you will maintain healthy fish in a healthy, non-medicated fish tank.
Beth I completely agree with you! Sometimes we accidently get a parasite into the system though from time to time. Whether the qt period wasn't quite long enough or it is introduced on rock or other surfaces we wouldn't expect it to. Prevention is of course key, but once the problem does occur then it is time to think about options. This is one of those topics that can be argued about forever.
S
stevenpro
Guest
The problem in evaluating any of these reef-safe treatments is sometimes aquarists do absolutely nothing and the fish get better on their own. So, when you use something and the fish get better, you can't say for sure the treatment worked or if it was natural, acquired immunity unless you have controlled studies that can account for this.
Steve, I don't quite understand the immunity end of this. Ich is a parasite, not a virus. I can understand how the body's immune system can naturally build up a resistance to a virus, but how does it build up resistance to a parasite?
Granted, healthy fish are more tolerant of the infection and will likely have healing powers whereas a weaker fish will succumb.
Granted, healthy fish are more tolerant of the infection and will likely have healing powers whereas a weaker fish will succumb.
Originally Posted by sepulatian
This is one of those topics that can be argued about forever.
The only argument I see is battling all the "reasons" hobbyist come up for not setting up a QT. In my book, its just not an "option". Fish are going to get sick and bring in diseases to your tank. Dumping chemicals into the display is risky business, at best. What a headache hobbyist suffer just because they don't use a QT.
This is one of those topics that can be argued about forever.
The only argument I see is battling all the "reasons" hobbyist come up for not setting up a QT. In my book, its just not an "option". Fish are going to get sick and bring in diseases to your tank. Dumping chemicals into the display is risky business, at best. What a headache hobbyist suffer just because they don't use a QT.
S
stevenpro
Guest
It is kind of odd. We always seem to associate immunity with viruses or bacteria, but it can occur in fish with parasites. Fish have displayed immunity to both Cryptocaryon and Amyloodinium. Here are some papers on the topic:
Colorni, Angelo. 1987. "Biology of Cryptocaryon irritans and Strategies for its Control" Aquaculture 67:236-237.
Colorni, Angelo & Peter Burgess. 1997. "Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951, the cause of 'white spot disease' in marine fish: an update" Aquarium Sciences and Conservation 1:217-238, 1997.
Cobb, Charles S., Michael G. Levy, & Edward J. Noga. 1998. "Development of Immunity by the Tomato Clownfish Amphiprion frenatus to the Dinoflagellate Parasite Amyloodinium ocellatum" Journal of Aquatic Animal Health, vol. 10 no. 3 pp. 259-263, 1998.
Colorni, Angelo. 1987. "Biology of Cryptocaryon irritans and Strategies for its Control" Aquaculture 67:236-237.
Colorni, Angelo & Peter Burgess. 1997. "Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951, the cause of 'white spot disease' in marine fish: an update" Aquarium Sciences and Conservation 1:217-238, 1997.
Cobb, Charles S., Michael G. Levy, & Edward J. Noga. 1998. "Development of Immunity by the Tomato Clownfish Amphiprion frenatus to the Dinoflagellate Parasite Amyloodinium ocellatum" Journal of Aquatic Animal Health, vol. 10 no. 3 pp. 259-263, 1998.
scubadoo
Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
I've now seen this stuff work yet again. I have mentioned Chem Marin's Stop Parasite in ich discussions before and have gotten a lot of resistence even after telling people about my personal success with the stuff. I have now seen the stuff used for the 3rd time and it has worked for the 3rd time. Definitely, Beth and Scuba and others consistently recommend hypo to treat ich and I'm not saying they're wrong. But people often doubt the possibility that a reef safe, copper free med can work... this is wrong.
This is not to guarantee any specific result but I just wanted to let people know what I've seen in 3 different tanks, including treatments on fish, inverts, corals, shark, ray, anenomes, etc. If you have an ich problem and aren't able or willing to do hypo, this is a good med to try.
There are many factors that can bring on an outbreak of disease if present in the system. If one are all of the contributing factors are imporved the fish may fight the disease for a brief period on their own. Many hobbyists will draw coorelations...I added Mr Jones Miracle Cure XX Bomb Juice and my fish got better....but the bomb had nothing to do with it.
The only proven methods for ich treatment is hypo and copper. There is no science that I am aware of to support claims made by the maker of these mircale reef safe cures.
In fact some makers of the miracle cure products also produce copper based additives. Certainly, there would be no need for copper based additives if the holy grail juice worked.
How can one additive kill just one invert ich..and leave all others unharmed? Please folks..don't give me that weeds on the lawn argument and extrapolate that to a closed marine system
If you feel this stuff works or any other additive that is non-copper based...simply call the manufacturer and ask them for a copy of their "studies" and "tests" where actual results matched expected results...A 100% CURE.
You probably would have the same success for cure if you hung a dead chicken over your system, chanted a voodoo verse or two..while tapping your dog on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
I've now seen this stuff work yet again. I have mentioned Chem Marin's Stop Parasite in ich discussions before and have gotten a lot of resistence even after telling people about my personal success with the stuff. I have now seen the stuff used for the 3rd time and it has worked for the 3rd time. Definitely, Beth and Scuba and others consistently recommend hypo to treat ich and I'm not saying they're wrong. But people often doubt the possibility that a reef safe, copper free med can work... this is wrong.
This is not to guarantee any specific result but I just wanted to let people know what I've seen in 3 different tanks, including treatments on fish, inverts, corals, shark, ray, anenomes, etc. If you have an ich problem and aren't able or willing to do hypo, this is a good med to try.
There are many factors that can bring on an outbreak of disease if present in the system. If one are all of the contributing factors are imporved the fish may fight the disease for a brief period on their own. Many hobbyists will draw coorelations...I added Mr Jones Miracle Cure XX Bomb Juice and my fish got better....but the bomb had nothing to do with it.
The only proven methods for ich treatment is hypo and copper. There is no science that I am aware of to support claims made by the maker of these mircale reef safe cures.
In fact some makers of the miracle cure products also produce copper based additives. Certainly, there would be no need for copper based additives if the holy grail juice worked.
How can one additive kill just one invert ich..and leave all others unharmed? Please folks..don't give me that weeds on the lawn argument and extrapolate that to a closed marine system
If you feel this stuff works or any other additive that is non-copper based...simply call the manufacturer and ask them for a copy of their "studies" and "tests" where actual results matched expected results...A 100% CURE.
You probably would have the same success for cure if you hung a dead chicken over your system, chanted a voodoo verse or two..while tapping your dog on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
1journeyman
Active Member
One of you guys/gals that know this kind of thing... why does it cause an immediate drop in pH?
a&a2
Member
Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
There are many factors that can bring on an outbreak of disease if present in the system. If one are all of the contributing factors are imporved the fish may fight the disease for a brief period on their own. Many hobbyists will draw coorelations...I added Mr Jones Miracle Cure XX Bomb Juice and my fish got better....but the bomb had nothing to do with it.
The only proven methods for ich treatment is hypo and copper. There is no science that I am aware of to support claims made by the maker of these mircale reef safe cures.
In fact some makers of the miracle cure products also produce copper based additives. Certainly, there would be no need for copper based additives if the holy grail juice worked.
How can one additive kill just one invert ich..and leave all others unharmed? Please folks..don't give me that weeds on the lawn argument and extrapolate that to a closed marine system
If you feel this stuff works or any other additive that is non-copper based...simply call the manufacturer and ask them for a copy of their "studies" and "tests" where actual results matched expected results...A 100% CURE.
You probably would have the same success for cure if you hung a dead chicken over your system, chanted a voodoo verse or two..while tapping your dog on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
There are many factors that can bring on an outbreak of disease if present in the system. If one are all of the contributing factors are imporved the fish may fight the disease for a brief period on their own. Many hobbyists will draw coorelations...I added Mr Jones Miracle Cure XX Bomb Juice and my fish got better....but the bomb had nothing to do with it.
The only proven methods for ich treatment is hypo and copper. There is no science that I am aware of to support claims made by the maker of these mircale reef safe cures.
In fact some makers of the miracle cure products also produce copper based additives. Certainly, there would be no need for copper based additives if the holy grail juice worked.
How can one additive kill just one invert ich..and leave all others unharmed? Please folks..don't give me that weeds on the lawn argument and extrapolate that to a closed marine system
If you feel this stuff works or any other additive that is non-copper based...simply call the manufacturer and ask them for a copy of their "studies" and "tests" where actual results matched expected results...A 100% CURE.
You probably would have the same success for cure if you hung a dead chicken over your system, chanted a voodoo verse or two..while tapping your dog on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
readster
Member
is it ok, if they company is not claiming that it kills the ich, but rather just keeps the ich off your fish ? would that be ok, would it be a good medicine then ? because basically if it keeps the parasites off your fish, that could be claimed as a victory, no ? research and advances in science are good things, change is good too, some of you people remind me of my grandpa, he's still pretty much living in the '30s, no cell phones, dvd player, etc. as he's happy as a clam ! i guess whatever makes you happy, i'll try the new stuff, if needed, thanks for the advice.
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by readster
is it ok, if they company is not claiming that it kills the ich, but rather just keeps the ich off your fish ? would that be ok, would it be a good medicine then ? because basically if it keeps the parasites off your fish, that could be claimed as a victory, no ? research and advances in science are good things, change is good too, some of you people remind me of my grandpa, he's still pretty much living in the '30s, no cell phones, dvd player, etc. as he's happy as a clam ! i guess whatever makes you happy, i'll try the new stuff, if needed, thanks for the advice.
Many tanks have been wiped out because "someone tried the new stuff"...
Instead of trusting a company that isn't regulated and profits off of selling this stuff, why not listen to the experienced folks here that are warning about it?
Look... "keeping it off the fish" isn't a victory. People that keep advocating this medication don't seem to understand the life cycle of ich.
I agree that change is a good thing; so show me some research that says this stuff actually works and I'll support it. Does the company offer any validated scientific studies proving it works? If not, why?
What are the long term implications of using it? Why does it drop your pH? How long do elements of the medication stay in your tank? How does the medication target ich and not all of our inverts? Is it safe for corals that filter feed to ingest? How do they metabolically process it?
All of these questions and many more should be asked and answered before you dump it in your tank.
scubadoo
Active Member
Originally Posted by A&A2
I've known many people who have had luck using it and many who have not. I personally had luck with it :cheer:
If you feel it is useful then use it. What I post in this thread is intended for others that may read it.
You can roll your eyes, consider it, dismiss it or laugh at it. The wise path is one where proven treatment protocols are used for disease cure.....as opposed to wishing for a lucky day with some new mircale juice.
it is up to each hobbyist if they would like to be R&D for some colored water with a catchy name ....with the potential scarifice of their hard earend money and the lives of the animals.
I prefer and recommend to use treatments where luck is not part of the equation.
I've known many people who have had luck using it and many who have not. I personally had luck with it :cheer:
If you feel it is useful then use it. What I post in this thread is intended for others that may read it.
You can roll your eyes, consider it, dismiss it or laugh at it. The wise path is one where proven treatment protocols are used for disease cure.....as opposed to wishing for a lucky day with some new mircale juice.
it is up to each hobbyist if they would like to be R&D for some colored water with a catchy name ....with the potential scarifice of their hard earend money and the lives of the animals.
I prefer and recommend to use treatments where luck is not part of the equation.
a&a2
Member
thanks Bang Guy! I was just trying to point out that other methods can work. Seems like on this site unless you're doing hypo, every other treatment is garbage. I was not laughing. I was rolling my eyes cause everyone dismisses any other treatment as not acceptable unless doing hypo
sepulatian
Moderator
Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
There are many factors that can bring on an outbreak of disease if present in the system. If one are all of the contributing factors are imporved the fish may fight the disease for a brief period on their own. Many hobbyists will draw coorelations...I added Mr Jones Miracle Cure XX Bomb Juice and my fish got better....but the bomb had nothing to do with it.
The only proven methods for ich treatment is hypo and copper. There is no science that I am aware of to support claims made by the maker of these mircale reef safe cures.
In fact some makers of the miracle cure products also produce copper based additives. Certainly, there would be no need for copper based additives if the holy grail juice worked.
How can one additive kill just one invert ich..and leave all others unharmed? Please folks..don't give me that weeds on the lawn argument and extrapolate that to a closed marine system
If you feel this stuff works or any other additive that is non-copper based...simply call the manufacturer and ask them for a copy of their "studies" and "tests" where actual results matched expected results...A 100% CURE.
You probably would have the same success for cure if you hung a dead chicken over your system, chanted a voodoo verse or two..while tapping your dog on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
Actually Stop parasites does not claim to cure ich at all. That is certainly not what I am saying. I 100% agree that hobbiests SHOULD have an established qt set up and the parasites shouldn't enter the tank in the first place. However, When situations like this come up we can say: well, you should have done this, or we can say......well you can now do this. Personaly I prefer the latter. We cannot go back and fix our mistakes, but once they are made (especialy in this hobby) people want to know what they can do about it now to rectify their mistake and save their pets. I firmly stand behind Hypo with some SP to knock the ich off only while they (ich) go through the crazy panic stage of hypo.
There are many factors that can bring on an outbreak of disease if present in the system. If one are all of the contributing factors are imporved the fish may fight the disease for a brief period on their own. Many hobbyists will draw coorelations...I added Mr Jones Miracle Cure XX Bomb Juice and my fish got better....but the bomb had nothing to do with it.
The only proven methods for ich treatment is hypo and copper. There is no science that I am aware of to support claims made by the maker of these mircale reef safe cures.
In fact some makers of the miracle cure products also produce copper based additives. Certainly, there would be no need for copper based additives if the holy grail juice worked.
How can one additive kill just one invert ich..and leave all others unharmed? Please folks..don't give me that weeds on the lawn argument and extrapolate that to a closed marine system
If you feel this stuff works or any other additive that is non-copper based...simply call the manufacturer and ask them for a copy of their "studies" and "tests" where actual results matched expected results...A 100% CURE.
You probably would have the same success for cure if you hung a dead chicken over your system, chanted a voodoo verse or two..while tapping your dog on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
Actually Stop parasites does not claim to cure ich at all. That is certainly not what I am saying. I 100% agree that hobbiests SHOULD have an established qt set up and the parasites shouldn't enter the tank in the first place. However, When situations like this come up we can say: well, you should have done this, or we can say......well you can now do this. Personaly I prefer the latter. We cannot go back and fix our mistakes, but once they are made (especialy in this hobby) people want to know what they can do about it now to rectify their mistake and save their pets. I firmly stand behind Hypo with some SP to knock the ich off only while they (ich) go through the crazy panic stage of hypo.
bang guy
Moderator
Originally Posted by A&A2
were the scallops raw, or cooked. By the way--- why would you put it in your display tank risking your other fish?
raw.
[opinion mode]
The scallops didn't cure the ick, the fish cured the ick itself once it was out of a stressful environment.
Risking my other fish is one of those "do as I say, not as I do" things. I believe that only stressed fish have ick outbreaks. Ick may be present all the time but a healthy fish can easily fight it off.
The best defense against ick is still hypo in a quaranteen tank so that Ick is never present in your tank but things like Garlic Extreme & Stop Parasite are just gimmicks. They appear to work because after a few days a new fish is less stressed and can fight off the infection itself.
were the scallops raw, or cooked. By the way--- why would you put it in your display tank risking your other fish?
raw.
[opinion mode]
The scallops didn't cure the ick, the fish cured the ick itself once it was out of a stressful environment.
Risking my other fish is one of those "do as I say, not as I do" things. I believe that only stressed fish have ick outbreaks. Ick may be present all the time but a healthy fish can easily fight it off.
The best defense against ick is still hypo in a quaranteen tank so that Ick is never present in your tank but things like Garlic Extreme & Stop Parasite are just gimmicks. They appear to work because after a few days a new fish is less stressed and can fight off the infection itself.