Lagoonal Reef

[dskidmore]

Originally posted by YellowTail
could you make a simpl diagram such as in "Paint" to show exactly how the siphon starts and how this works?
...
could you elaborate on this a little bit more im a little bit confused?

I've been wondering that too. My best guess is something like this:
A Siphon U with one end overing above the bottom of the bucket (you can see that end in the picture), and the other end pummed through a bulkhead in the bottom. A T just above the bulkhead to a pipe taller than the U, for air release. As the water level rises in the bucket, water starts up the left side of the U, with air being forced out of the vent, until the water level covers the U, starting a siphon. Minimum water level in the surge bucket would be the top of the T, as the siphon would break there.

 

[bang guy]

Remove the 'T' and the taller tube and you've got it.

 

[yellowtail]

does a pump push the water up the tube?(i know probaly not)what is the purpose for the water to sihon into these containers?where is the water in the container going to/coming from?

 

[yellowtail]

1).does a pump push the water up the tube?(i know probaly not)
2).what is the purpose for the water to siphon into these containers?
3).where is the water in the container going to?
4).where is the water in the container coming from?

 

[dskidmore]

Originally posted by YellowTail
1).does a pump push the water up the tube?(i know probaly not)
2).what is the purpose for the water to siphon into these containers?
3).where is the water in the container going to?
4).where is the water in the container coming from?
1) No, as water level in the bucket rises, the water in the siphon naturally rises as well.
2) Not in, siphons out. It's a surge device. The idea is it's filled slowly from a pump, then the siphon lets it all out at once, creating waves in the refugium.
3) Into the refugium.
4) I'm guessing his sump, which in turn is fed by the refugium.
Originally posted by Bang Guy
Remove the 'T' and the taller tube and you've got it.
I guess the third pipe in the picture is the inlet pipe then? Outlet pipe is not submerged, so air can escape?
That sump has to take alot of water rise/fall if I understand this right! It must mess with your auto topoff when both buckets are full at the same time, but then, you have the volume to take a little bit of over-topoff.
I've been contemplating a mini-surge, maybe an inch or so of water, from my refugium to the display. Could be tricky to not flood everything if my overflow isn't up to the task, but I'm hoping to create a response in the filter feeders in the tank, a wave comes and a fresh supply of photoplankton can be expected.

 

[yellowtail]

ok,
i think i got it. a pump pushes water into the bucket which in turn water from the can is siphoned in the tube and pushed out.right?:thinking:

 

[dskidmore]

Ah yes, I would have been less confused if I'd actually read all the text with the picture:
"On the right is the intake. It goes all the way down to avoid spashes & bubbles. "
The outlet looks submerged though from some of the pictures, I would think that would cause pressure issues, but I guess it could just burp air as the bucket fills.

 

[dskidmore]

Originally posted by YellowTail
ok,
i think i got it. a pump pushes water into the bucket which in turn water from the can is siphoned in the tube and pushed out.right?:thinking:
:yes: The bucket fills, the siphon starts, the bucket empties, the siphon is broken, the bucket fills again. Repeat.

 

[yellowtail]

only a few more questions(for now....... )
1). just say if the water line inside the container is 6 inches high, would the water in the pvc be 6 inches up?
2). i know what ball valves are used for but why does evryone(seems like it) have ball valves just before evrything?(example:sump,skimmer,fuge,return line)

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by DSkidmore
The outlet looks submerged though from some of the pictures, I would think that would cause pressure issues, but I guess it could just burp air as the bucket fills.
Yes. The outlet must be submerged and burp the air out. Otherwise the water inside the plumbing will just fall out without starting the siphon.
I don't have auto topoff problems because of the way my topoff works. It's a siphon from a lime water settling tank that is filled from a 7 gallon limewater reactor, that is filled from a RO holding tank, that is filled from an RO with an auto-shutoff.
When the water is high after a surge then the topoff siphon just barely drips, or even stops completely on large surges. As the water in the sump is pumped to the display the water level lowers and the siphon gradually increases it's rate.
The average output from the topoff is identical to what it would be if the water level were stable.
The RO holding tank is a recent addition.

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by YellowTail
only a few more questions(for now....... )
1 - Yep.
2 - Without the ball valve most of the water would just drain into the second container because of the speed of the water going through the line.

 

[crome]

bang you are 1 sick mofo! GREAT JOB and thanks for all the enfo that you give us on this site. keep up the good work sir

 

[robvia]

Just want to see if I understand this. Is this drawn correctly? I think you are saying that as the water level in the surge tank rises, water will rise up the U tube and air will burp out the tube at point 3. Once it rises to the top of the U tube, it will start to drain out point 3. Since point 2 is submerged it will start a syphon. I get the syphon, but I don't understand how air will burp out point 3. Can someone expand on this?
Are there any design considerations like height difference or pipe size? Obviously the exit pipe has to handle more than you are pumping in.
Thanks,
Rob

 

[bang guy]

Yep, you got it.
In my particular case the outlet does not travel horizontally and there is an elbow just under the water level to make the water go across the surface.
The size of the plumbing needs to be matched with the GPH of water coming in. I'm using 2" plumbing and have about 1000GPH going into each surge.
I have a 7 gallon (salt bucket) setup using 1" plumbing that is fed about 200GPH.

 

[robvia]

I love the design. I guess this is the "no moving parts" surge creator. I wonder if the distance from the surge tank to the display tank makes a difference. Could you get to much pipe and air so that the syphon wouldn't start? If you took it to a display could you pipe several exits, or even a spraybar, to crate surge throughout the tank? Wish I could see it in action. That always helps.

 

[bang guy]

It's not my design. I just made a couple improvements. It was invented by the curator of the Waikiki Aquarium.
A spray bar would work fine. One design requirement is to have a way for the trapped air to bubble out so there needs to be a small hole in the plumbing just under water.
The higher you raise the bucket the more forceful the surge will be.
This type of surge creates a LOT of bubbles so you need to deal with them. IMO it's just like a wave breaking into a tide pool.

 

[dskidmore]

Originally posted by robvia
Could you get to much pipe and air so that the syphon wouldn't start?
Just don't submerge the outlet pipe to the bottom of the display aquarium. The air pressure in the pipe will never be greater than the water pressure at the depth the outlet pipe is at. The pressure is generated by the diffrence in water height in the surge bucket and in the siphon. As long as you have clearance above the U greater than the depth of the outlet, the surge bucket will win and burp out the excess air. The faster the pump you're using, the bigger you want to make your margin for error.

 

[bang guy]

Perfect description (Hydro engineer??)
In the pics you'll notice that the exit is only 1/2" below the water surface. During the surge it's 2 or 3" deep but by then it doesn't matter

 

[binxdakat]

l love your tank!

 

[dskidmore]

Originally posted by Bang Guy
Perfect description (Hydro engineer??)
No, just a nerd. Software tester by trade.