Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything

king_neptune

Active Member
well there you have it....i cant get the home page to load. that sit is sloooooooowww.
2 days its been stuck on loading, so I gave up trying. maybe if I go take a nap...
 

posiden

Active Member
Nep,
that would be the second half. I am part of a conversation on the big site that is directly about ATS and Vodka dosing. I must say that so far it has gone on nicely and no tempers have flared up. It has replys by others that it is a very well disscused thread. I should also note that it starts off with a link right to Santa Monicas opening post just like this one here as they were all started at just about the same time.
SantMonica,
While I can't speek for the direct link to which you are in reference to, cause we can't link here. However this would seem to be a real good example of why a lot of people say "have you tried the search function?" Me myself have tried the search function over there at least 50 times and have only gotten through 3 times. That site can not hold the demand or the server load. Ever had simple threads come up as unavalible?? It is becomming more and more of a problem over there.
 

king_neptune

Active Member
Originally Posted by Posiden
http:///forum/post/3112338
I must say that so far it has gone on nicely and no tempers have flared up.
I am still not sure why there seems to be such an incredible amount of resistance to Scrubbers. Especially towards the beggingin of this thread...WOW there was alot of resistance!
Wasn't this something that people in the 60's and 70's used? They kinda died out around the advent of skimmers correct? just because something is older doesn't mean it is inferior...just compare the sun to MH lighting^_^
At any rate, I don't believe they are the END ALL BE ALL to reef keeping, but I am a firm believer in the science that has been presented, and I have drawn my own logical conclusions. Scrubbers are natural, and I want my tank as natural as possible.
Originally Posted by SantaMonica

http:///forum/post/3112418
Wrong MASA site
Indeed the MASA site i was on was the Marine Aquarium Society of Australia, instead of MARINE ASSOCIATION of SOUTH AFRICA
 

santamonica

Member
What is a boundary layer, and why is it important? It the layer of water that is microscopically close to the algae; the water molecules that actually touch the algae:

This boundary layer area of the water has zero flow, because it has to have the same flow as the algae, which of course is zero. Since there is no flow (velocity) here, nutrient transport through it is slow. The faster the water flow, the smaller the boundary layer, and the faster the nutrients can get to/from the algae from the water.
One point to clarify about nutrient exchange: Contact with air is not needed. Scrubbers operate the same whether they are sealed or open (except for cooling/evap), because the exchange is not with the air; it's with the water. The reason algae grows better in an overflow, or where water hits a scrubber screen, or where waves hit the beach, is because the flow is higher here and thus the water's boundary layer is thinner, which allows for better nutrient transfer between the algae and the water. This is what a vertical waterfall scrubber tries to achieve: Fast flow from top to bottom. Further info can be found here:
Seagrasses: Biology, Ecology, and Conservation, p 199, by AWD Larkum, Robert Joseph Orth, Carlos M. Duarte:
"As water flows through seagrass [or algae] beds, a boundary layer develops on the sediment surface, as well as on each seagrass [and algae] component exposed to the moving water. The faster the water moves, the thinner the diffusive boundary layer (DBL) becomes, and consequently, the faster the transfer of molecules from the water column to the sediment and/or seagrass [or algae]. It follows then that when currents [flow] are weak, the flux of molecules to the seagrass [or algae] surface may be limited by diffusion through the [boundary layer] (i.e., physical limitation). Under those conditions, many biological sites or enzymes in the seagrass [or algae] tissue are available to assimilate molecules when/if [!] they reach the plant's [or algal] surface.
 

jcattanach2012

New Member
I have a few questions about this, as a new reefer. Can I set this up as my initial, only filtration system (other than LR/LS) and cycle that way? Should I run a skimmer until I start to see Turf algae? Can I set it up in such a way that my overflow runs directly to the screen, then into my sump, which overflows into my refugium, and then back up into the display?
 

nigerbang

Active Member
Turf Scrubbers will work granted they are a VERY old practice, just as Plenum and things of that nature..
IMHO I woulnt be giving up a nice skimmer for one...
 
D

danno.thomas

Guest
Have mine up and functional on a 30 gal, that was just changed over from a 20 gal, had zero new algae growth in the DT. Scrubber is working like magic. Small feather dusters abundant. 6 years in the hobby and my tank has never looked more alive. This is my exclusive filtration.
 

jcattanach2012

New Member
Well... I think I'm gonna set up the skimmer and fuge -and- the scrubber... so it's there, and once I"m more comfortable, I'll shut off the skimmer and see what happens.
 
so 2 weeks after setting up the scrubber nitrates and phosphates are at 0. the scrubber is a "healthy" green. I still have not had any red thick slime issuesand cleaned it gently once just to kill the pods. I still think it is not "stable" enough to take my skimmer offline but after a couple months i might try it out. the skimmer is pulling out some nasty nasty gunk still. I will take some pics of it tonight when it comes on at midnight and post them up.
 

santamonica

Member
Jcatt: You can start out with a scrubber, but it won't grow much until you start feeding. No harm either way, since nothing is in the tank. Cycling your tank with your scrubber running is fine. The favorite food of algae is ammonia, so the algae will be in heaven during the cycling. Later, as nitrate and phosphate develop in the water, the algae will still be just as happy. Also, this extra time that the algae gets to develop during the cycling will allow it to be more full and ready-to-go when you start stocking. You can then start feeding your tank heavier, sooner, since the algae will already be available to absorb a lot of nitrate and phosphate. The type of algae that grows will change from what develops at the beginning, but that is normal. And it may take longer for you to see the very first growth (up to a week), but it will certainly grow. After you stock and start feeding, then it will have regular growth.
Danno: Great to hear!
Mixx: Glad your hear your nutirents are low. If you have not seen dark/oily growth by now, you won't. Just keep the 7 day cleanings. As for the skimmer, remember it is pulling out food, not nitrate or phosphate. So the best/cheapest route would be to remove the skimmer and cut your feeding in half (since you are removing half your food anyways.) Nutrients will remain at zero.
 

santamonica

Member
Update: Results of new screen material?
It's been a while now, so let's hear some feedback on how the new screen material worked. I'm most interested in if it ripped when it got heavy with algae. Other people want to get the material too, but I need to make sure it works before I can recommend it.
 

santamonica

Member
Several Updates:
1. Change CFL or T5 bulbs every THREE MONTHS!
2. Wattage recommendation: 0.5 Watts per gallon for medium filtering. 1.0 for high filtering.
3. CFL bulbs: 55W is the max that works good. If you need more watts, get two or three smaller ones, or go to T5HO (best)
4. Skimmer overflow: Be careful of your skimmer overflowing (if it does not have an overflow tube.) The rotting food in the skimmer cups has been growing bacteria, and thus producing ammonia, so if it overflows into your sump, the ammonia can kill things. If this happens, then a scrubber removes this ammonia from the water (skimmers do not remove ammonia; they only make ammonia in the cup.)
5. Current best place to get plastic canvas: www.EverythingPlasticCanvas.com
6. Surges are not recommended for scrubbers, because (1) the have not shown to improve operations, (2) they are hard to diy, (2) they are noisy/messy, and (4) they reduce the filtering contact time with the water.
7. Cleaning: If your screen goes up into the pipe, you can clean the screen extra good in that area, so that less algae will grow up into the pipe.
8. Purple growth: If your screen is new, and you are getting thin purple growth in spots, it is probably cyano because of weak lighting. If your screen is 3 months old or more, and you start getting purple growth, feel it. If it's is furry, then it's turf. If it's not furry, then it cyano.
9. Never run the lighting 24/7.
10. Cyano in display: Sometimes, after an algae scrubber has removed most of the nuisance algae in a tank, cyano will grow a bit more. This is normal, because cyano does not eat the same thing that nuisance algae does (thus, the cyano now has less competition). But the cyano will reduce too eventually. The cyano occurs because it has the capability of getting nitrogen directly from the water, without needing Nitrate, Nitrate or Ammonia/Ammonium (which is what algae gets nitrogen from). But as the scrubber continues to filter, the cyano will have a harder and harder time holding on.
11. Why "polished" water is bad: The "clean" water look you get with a skimmer and other mechanical filters is because the food (i.e, waste "protein") has been removed from the water. This is what you want if you have just large fish. But if you want a "real" natural reef, you don't want to do this. Go diving some time and look at the water on a natural reef; there are millions of specks and dots and particles and things floating in the water in a super thick soup. And that's just six inches in front of your face. These things are what feed everything, including small fish.
 
i know there are alot of cords and it looks like a mess under there but its all the room i have to work with for now . I at least know what everything goes to lol. The first light has a folded reflector over the scrubber the light behind it is for the grape capulera and the cheato in the fuge. the scrubber is angled slightly with 2 inch walls on 3 sides emptying into the return area. The return pump is t'ed off going to the display tank and the scrubber.

up close with flash

closer view

lighting moved back to see the scrubber


 

santamonica

Member
Are you turning your light off 6 hours each day? The bald spot in the middle of the screen usually happend when you run it 24 hours.
Also, when your scrubber is working good, your caulerpa and chaeto will probably die off. So you might consider just removing them anyway.
 

happyfeet

Member
I don't know how this thread alluded me so long! I'm going to try this concept for my new tank. I'm going to see how running it as my only filtration system works out, aside from the live rock.
Where can I find the honeycomb material? I don't think I've seen it in the hardware store before.
 
Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/3120278
Are you turning your light off 6 hours each day? The bald spot in the middle of the screen usually happend when you run it 24 hours.
Also, when your scrubber is working good, your caulerpa and chaeto will probably die off. So you might consider just removing them anyway.
the lighting schedule for the scrubber is on a midnight off at 4 pm so its gettin 8 hrs off... think the bulb is to close?
of i remove the cheato will my cop pods dissapear or will they still be able to hang out in the LR in the fuge?
 
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