Nope. Not Torture.

darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
I have a question for TAZ, am I just as evil and greedy as the corporations that send their business overseas? I can't find anyone competant enough to the job to the level I want in my business. so I no longer have employees and my wife and I do the work ourselves. Thus keeping all the profits for myself. Plus I don't have to deal with the added payroll tax expenses and accounting expenses....maybe, if the government wouldn't tax the crap out of me on some of these issues I might be inclined to pay someone for what I feel is a subpar performance. But since I have added taxes to pay for just to employ someone for crappy work, why not save myself the money.
It is the same mentality as companies producing things overseas....the average high school kid can make a pair of shoes, but once you factor in the taxes to employ the individual, the much higher rate of pay and so on...the company is OUT more money as a whole.
Look at how much a pair of NIKEs cost right now, they are made in china...how much would they cost you if the company had to factor in benefit pay, union wages, and additional taxes on top of it. Your 60-70 dollar shoe just became atleast twice that. Now, how many shoes will the company sell at that price? does their profit margin go up or down with less sales.
I love people that complain about companies that have never ran their own business and do not even begin to understand the costs involved and the retarded taxes piled on top.
All they hear is the guberment is going to give the companies a tax rebate for highering new employees. GREAT!!! to the ignorant mind that is, it is still more cost effective for me to NOT higher someone, even with rebate...especially if my sales totals are down....why would I higher someone if I am not going to make any money....just to get a small rebate.....which in the long run means I pay more taxes.......yeah riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiightttttttttttttt.
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
From my personal experience, having run my own small business, I would also posit that there's a major difference between that and running a large corporation as well. The benefits you speak of work on a large scale. On a small scale they don't. That's part of how the game has been set up.
That's why Walmart has taken the place of small town squares. But, what does Wallyworld do about legally mandated employee health insurance? They hire their employees part time so they don't have to pay, then they hand out pamphlets in store about how to get State or Federal (paid for by you and me) medical benefits. Factor that into the cost of your cheap goods.
That's why Home Depot has taken the place of your local hardware store (where you could get or order anything you needed, and have a friendly chat with your neighbor - the owner.) Factor his empty house, and those of his knowledgeable employees, into the cost of your comparitively inexpensive drill bits, (which neither you nor the orange apron wearing "associate" was able to find.)
That's why small family farms, which made up around 75% of American agriculture in the late 60's, early 70's, have been replaced by some 6 Corporate entities. (That particular devolution was brought about by Earl Butz, President Nixon's AgSec. who famously said "Go big or get out." Odd concept for a "Conservative" administration.) I can detail the boring economic and legislative acts which led to our current state of affairs if you'd like.
Meantime, we used to have the safest food supply on earth. Now, the CDC is unwilling to point a finger at the source of last year's H7:O157 (E-Coli) outbreak for fear of offending our NAFTA "partners." Factor that into the cost of your cheap food.
It's about economies of scale functioning w/in the Gov't/Corporate/Media complex. Your elected representatives get no benefit from providing those same incentives to you, the small business owner. Oh sure, they're extended to you, but as you've pointed out, they're of no real use to you, are they?
So why do these laws exist? Whom do they benefit?
Our ELECTED Representatives benefit from their Corporate masters in the form of campaign contributions, local property tax revenues, etc. received from Wallyworld, ConAgra, Monsanto, GE, Goldman Sachs, et al. who in return get tax breaks from them.
Don't even try to tell me any of them has my interests at heart, Republican or Democrat. If you look at the major contributors to the Obama and McCain campaigns, you'll find many of the same Corporations on both lists. In Vegas, that's called hedging your bets. In DC, it's called buying influence. I call it rigging the game.
As for products being imported from overseas and jobs being outsourced, I have to wonder what ever happened to the mantra: "Buy American."
I'd venture to guess that a large contributing factor in its demise is that nobody knows what "American" is anymore, i.e. the phrase has been rendered meaningless...
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3059601
From my personal experience, having run my own small business, I would also posit that there's a major difference between that and running a large corporation as well. The benefits you speak of work on a large scale. On a small scale they don't. That's part of how the game is rigged.
That's why Walmart has taken the place of small town squares. But, what does Wallyworld do about legally mandated employee health insurance? They hire their employees part time so they don't have to pay, then they hand out pamphlets in store about how to get State or Federal (paid for by you and me) medical benefits. Factor that into the cost of your cheap goods.
That's why Home Depot has taken the place of your local hardware store (where you could get or order anything you needed, and have a friendly chat with your neighbor - the owner.)
That's why small family farms, which made up around 75% of American agriculture in the late 60's, early 70's, have been replaced by some 6 Corporate entities. (That particular devolution was brought about by Earl Butz, President Nixon's AgSec. who famously said "Go big or get out." Odd concept for a "Conservative" administration.) I can detail the boring economic and legislative acts which led to our current state of affairs if you'd like.
Meantime, we used to have the safest food supply on earth. Now, the CDC is unwilling to point a finger at the source of last year's H7:O157 (E-Coli) outbreak for fear of offending our NAFTA "partners."
It's about economies of scale functioning w/in the Gov't/Corporate/Media complex. Your elected representatives get no benefit from providing those same incentives to you, the small business owner. Oh sure, they're extended to you, but as you've pointed out, they're of no real use to you, are they?
So why do these laws exist? Whom do they benefit?
Our ELECTED Representatives benefit from their Corporate masters in the form of campaign contributions, local property taxes etc. received from Wallyworld, ConAgra, Monsanto, GE, Goldman Sachs, et al. who in return get tax breaks from them.
Don't even try to tell me any of them has my interests at heart, Republican or Democrat. If you look at the major contributors to the Obama and McCain campaigns, you'll find many of the same Corporations on both lists. In Vegas, that's called hedging your bets. In DC, it's called buying influence. I call it rigging the game.
As for products being imported from overseas and jobs being outsourced, I have to wonder what ever happened to the mantra: "Buy American."
I'd venture to guess that a large contributing factor is that nobody knows what "American" is anymore, i.e. the phrase has been rendered meaningless...
Nixon wasn't too bad, but it was nixon that said "We are all Keynsians now." And Keynsian economics far more closely fits the Liberal idealogy than the conservative one.
2nd walmart doesn't destroy "mainstreet." Walmart doesn't hold a gun to anyone and say you must shop here...
But that being said, I used to live in a town and Walmart came to town. And in the 10 years or so that walmart has been there, Mainstreet has boomed. The town turned into the "going into town" for a large portion of east texas. I don't buy this whole Walmart is destroying main street america bit.
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3059630
Nixon wasn't too bad, but it was nixon that said "We are all Keynsians now." And Keynsian economics far more closely fits the Liberal idealogy than the conservative one.
2nd walmart doesn't destroy "mainstreet." Walmart doesn't hold a gun to anyone and say you must shop here...
But that being said, I used to live in a town and Walmart came to town. And in the 10 years or so that walmart has been there, Mainstreet has boomed. The town turned into the "going into town" for a large portion of east texas. I don't buy this whole Walmart is destroying main street america bit.
Enjoy your Chinese Hummer.
You know where the computer chips that control F-18's come from? Same place Wallyworld gets their clothing. The two go hand in hand.
Your locality is a notable exception. Does Wally pay their employee's health benefits, or are they charging that to you?
Out here, local Citizens are suing their own Govt's to prevent Wally from opening stores because we've seen what they do to our localites.
Re: Keynesian economics, it's no more liberal than Friedmanian or Trickle Down. All are derivations of Fractional Reserve policies, which are inflationary by design.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3059640
Enjoy your Chinese Hummer.
You know where the computer chips that control F-18's come from? Same place Wallyworld get's their clothing. The two go hand in hand.
Your locality is a notable exception. Does Wally pay their employee's health benefits, or are they charging that to you?
Out here, local Citizens are suing local Govt's to prevent Wally from opening stores because we've seen what they do to our localites.
Enjoy villifying an American Company, that started on Main Street, in towns everyone else ignored.
And I still have yet to see anything but anecdotal evidence and some hitjob journalist (and they know absolutely nothing about anything) to prove that Walmart destroys mainstreet.
Do you realize the Buy American legislation that is in place for government purchases? It has to be astronomically cheaper. Not security sensitive to give the diagrams to a foreign country. The hoops they have to jump through are extreem.
But what does that say about hoops required to manufacture in the usa? Which are government imposed.
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
Why does criticism have to = villification?
Cripes that's a tired, boring argument. America, love it or leave it - right? WTH? How else is one going to improve something other than to recognize its weaknesses?
I'm not villifying anything. I'm pointing out the absurdity of the system We the People have acquiesed to, through no other fault than our own. It is also only we who can fix it.
Agree or disagree on policy, I assume you do recognize that what we've got ain't working?
That started long before either of us was born. Does it end before we die, or are we gonna bicker about the particulars 'til there's nothing worth saving?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3059640
Enjoy your Chinese Hummer.
You know where the computer chips that control F-18's come from? Same place Wallyworld gets their clothing. The two go hand in hand.
Your locality is a notable exception. Does Wally pay their employee's health benefits, or are they charging that to you?
Out here, local Citizens are suing their own Govt's to prevent Wally from opening stores because we've seen what they do to our localites.
Re: Keynesian economics, it's no more liberal than Friedmanian or Trickle Down. All are derivations of Fractional Reserve policies, which are inflationary by design.
I must have lived in another one of those odd localities where walmart didn't kill everything. Home Depot and Lowes came to town and both the local Ace Hardware's are still in business too. Heck the libs tried to stop Starbux from coming in. Even the Democrats who controlled the city government shot that down. They would have been forced to pay Starbux more than they could ever earn in profits as a result of the lawsuit. The people wanted to stop them because the local coffee vendors would be hurt. No other reason. Sorry but this isn't a communist country (yet), government can't be so blatant when it plays favorites.
Would you rather all those Wal Mart employees worked for a mom and pop who aren't giving them benefits? At least wally world provides them some.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Looks like Obama's illegal payback to the UAW is in jeopardy. When Justice Ginsburg is the one issuing the stay against the Chrysler Fiat deal it's looking bleak. Them hosing over the Bondholders drove home

[hr]
rates up about a half point in a week. That'll really help the housing market
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3059651
Why does criticism have to = villification?
Cripes that's a tired, boring argument. America, love it or leave it - right? WTH? How else is one going to improve something other than to recognize its weaknesses?
I'm not villifying anything. I'm pointing out the absurdity of the system We the People have acquiesed to, through no other fault than our own. It is also only we who can fix it.
Agree or disagree on policy, I assume you do recognize that what we've got ain't working?
It started before either of us was born. Does it end before we die, or are we gonna bicker about the particulars in perpetuity 'til there's nothing worth saving?
What we have isn't working? I don't nessesarily think so.
It doesn't make any sense to "criticize" (and you can't say that Walmart isn't villified) and American company for being bad for america (especially when they produce something like 2% of our national GDP) while complaining that jobs are going over seas. This company hires thousands of people, they have their distribution centers in podunk USA where there aren't jobs, so people can continue their way of life and not have to move into a city.
Walmart is simply responding to what the market, you and me, have demanded a cheaper product, and quality is a non issue.
If you really want to gripe about a social issue, why not complain about the disposible society we live in. Walmart was simply responding to that.
That (if I were to accept the premise) is what is destroying small town american. Not a mom and pop company recognizing a market and entering it then becoming the biggest company in the USA. That is a success story. If you have a problem with walmart don't support it by not price shopping.
Look quality manufacturing in the USA is still very strong. IT is when they build the high tolerance no mark up stuff where we are no longer competitive.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
As far as a disposable society goes when was the last time anyone saw a TV repair shop or a fix it shop where you can get small appliances repaired?
In the mid 90's I looked at doing the fix it shop deal. I lived in a really "progressive" town in Montana where I thing the idea would have been a home run. Problem is most of the stuff you buy these days (toasters, blenders, razors, hair dryers etc.) you can't get replacement parts for very easy. I would still like to do that but then again how much would someone pay to get a 20.00 blow dryer repaired?
 
i<3reefs

i<3reefs

Member
I am actually a 15 year employee of Wal-Mart who started as a cart-pusher and worked my way into management.
We are one of the only Retailers in the US that offers Medical benefits to PT employees (so you are wrong there) & FT. Target does not offer the benefits you mention. My company pays for 76% of our medical benefits, and we have the same type coverage as the folks in congress. We have catastrophic medical coverage with 0 dollar caps. My dental cost me $3.75 a pay period. We have an ungodly amount of choices on medical benefits, including cancer insurance, and premiums go down to just $10. I currently have an HSA, because it fit better for my lifestyle.
I had an employee who survived leukemia with Wal-Mart's insurance sending him to the Mayo Clinic, he was a bike assembler for me then, later he has promoted into management worked for me for the last 2 years (has since transferred) and I'm proud to say we're friends.
Wal-mart saves each person in the US an average of at least $2,500 a year, whether you shop there or not, because my company works to keep prices low. We are only 10% of retail sales in the United States.
The Buy American campaign was actually created by Sam Walton in the 1980s. I always find it funny that people pick something creating by Sam to try to insult Wal-Mart.
My company does 344 billion a year in sales (last I checked target does 30 billion), and my company buys products from everywhere. There isn't many suppliers that can keep up with the volume my company can put on them. This is why if you travel around the country you'll see different suppliers of the same items in different departments. I've switched warehouses in the past, and had to switch out all my notebooks, because we changed brands, due to this exact reason.
What you are talking about is the Welfare to Work act signed into law by Bill Clinton. Wal-Mart corporately has built more stores in economically depressed areas than anyone. This act allowed Wal-Mart to receive a tax break by taking people off the Welfare rolls. Wal-Mart corporate has taken more people off Welfare than any other company. If this applies to the individual hiring in then, it is in their benefit to sign up, because it reports welfare reduction data properly.
We do not hand out any pamphlets on how to get state or federal benefits at all. That is an absolute lie, I'm not sure where you've heard that, but they are wrong.
I'll always defend Wal-Mart because it gave a working person like me the oppertunity to run a multi-million dollar operation. Anyone who chooses to apply themselves can be successful with Wal-Mart, it is an amazing company made up of average people doing extraordinary things (Sam Walton).
Wal-Mart was built by your Grandma's hard work, those blue haired old ladies can outwork 90% of Americans. When you wonder why Wal-Mart was successful, just look at your Grandma, it likely was a lady just like her that made it all possible.
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3059666
It doesn't make any sense to "criticize" (and you can't say that Walmart isn't villified) and American company for being bad for america
ok - there's enough just in that sentence for me to write another diatribe.
1st. I'm not villifying Wallmart. I'm pointing out known facts about their business practices. If you have no problem w/ how they conduct business, that's absolutely fine, but please don't call yourself a conservative at the same time, because what they are doing is exactly the liberal/socialist process you rail against.
2nd. If it makes no sense to criticize an American company producing an American product, then perhaps we should discuss that the #1 cash crop in America is marijuana. Since it's homegrown, it can't be bad, right?
If you really want to gripe about a social issue, why not complain about the disposible society we live in. Walmart was simply responding to that.
Oh please. Gripe, complain. If no-one ever did that, we'd still be living in caves, so please stop villifying me.
If you have a problem with walmart don't support it by not price shopping.
I don't. I've never set foot in a Walmart nor will I.
Look quality manufacturing in the USA is still very strong. IT is when they build the high tolerance no mark up stuff where we are no longer competitive.
Please tell that to my former employer. Oh - wait. It wasn't the QUALITY manufacturing that was the problem, it was that quality is expensive, so my job was outsourced. Hope our new customers enjoy the new quality manufacturing.
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by I<3Reefs
http:///forum/post/3059679
We are one of the only Retailers in the US that offers Medical benefits to PT employees
Ok, sorry. It may vary State to State. Wallmart was just successfully sued in CA for doing exactly what I said they did.
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3059666
What we have isn't working? I don't nessesarily think so.
Then Obama's ok? (I'm not saying you've villified him. Criticism does not = villification.) I'm just asking.
1+ trillion in bailouts by the Bush administration and another 1+ by Obama are fine and dandy?
Then you're right - "what me worry?"
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3059666
If you really want to gripe about a social issue, why not complain about the disposible society we live in. Walmart was simply responding to that.
It is equally as important to be an informed consumer as it is to be an informed voter.
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3059706
So now can I cite the heritage foundation as good authority on economic information?
Absolutely and please do. No single entity has a corner on the truth. Economics is in no way an exact science. I'm willing to entertain the good and the bad. I don't have a corner on either, either. (odd looking statement, but you know what I mean?)
If I disagree, I'll argue it and tell you why. (Not that I'm an expert - but then I venture to guess - nor are you.)
 
taznut

taznut

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3059382
Also think about the unemployment rate since then. It spiked right at the beginning of the Reagan Presidency. Then fell till around the time obama took office. Bush's average rate was somewhere below 5. Clintons was around 5 (these are ball park off the top of my head) There is no corrolation between outsourcing and high unemployment rates.
The standard of living you have with your hated job, is much higher than most back in the good ol days.
But no wonder you hate your job retailing sucks giant donkey balls and you don't even deal with the general public. I worked in Retail for 5 years to pay for college. I'd never recomend anyone work in that environment, unless you're clinically insane.
i agree, until the last year unemployment stayed virtually the same... the reason why??? we are replacing the outsourced jobs with retail jobs... your usually earn more in production vs retail...
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3059382
Second thing you really need to consider, is pay rates (what you are really moaning about.) If you go back to the industrial revolution, (when we made the most stuff) and even after they all unionized. The pay rates for a manufacturing job, ajusted for inflation in today's dollars are like 400 to 1000 dollars a month (depending on whose average you choose to use.)
The standard of living you have with your hated job, is much higher than most back in the good ol days.
completely false... some quick numbers form bls.gov using their inflation calculator and laborlawcenter.com with their minimum wage chart...
assuming working 2080hr/yr at min wage
year $/yr 2009 dollars
1968 3,328 20,400
1980 6,448 16,700
1990 7,904 12,900
2009 15,800

[hr]
having a degree in econ im sure this chart makes since to you... this is my complaint... yes, the change in min wage in 2009 helped the people at the bottom of the barrel that worked at min wage in 1990 but look at the difference between 68-09.... in the late 60's to the early 80's people working at the bottom were worth more than they are today... do you not see a problem with this???
i know this is just for min wage but i couldn't find anything showing wage increases compared to inflation (tried in the past and again today, dont have time)... i also feel this trend is true for a lot of the middle class that work slightly higher than min wage...
i am not engaging in this debate because i dislike where i am today... i dont like my job or the pay but i know, as u pointed out, i am only a couple months out of school and things will get better... but i am concerned about the people who have to live at this wage (concerned about people other than myself that dont make millions in a year, there something you wont hear a conservative say)...
 
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