Nope. Not Torture.

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3058919
You are right, all you have to do is look at texas as a government that works (as good as they are going to anyway). There is no point in arguing...
The home of the "redneck" where the state's percentage change of GDP isn't negative, unemployment is 4% lower than the national average. The state doesn't have a budget deficit, itsn't experiencing a huge financial crisis.
And this is after still feeling the effects of 3 major hurricanes over the past 4 years. And taking on the additional load of every welfare recipient and criminal in New Orleans.
And best of all, I don't look to the government to save me, I look to myself.
It's also the state where:
You have a Governor who wanted to force middle school girls to take a drug for a disease that's normally contracted by s^x,
Still won't allow gambling when over 20% of their residents go to Louisiana, Oklahoma, and New Mexico to play,
Has one of the worse educational systems in the country, but tries to rationalize it by forcing kids to take a useless standardized test {TAKS} to graduate or be promoted to the next grade,
Has a major metropolis (Dallas) where half the city is 'dry' because the Southern Baptists don't dare let you have a drink in a restaurant or buy beer at the store,
No state income tax, but has one of the highest property tax rates in the country (don't EVER retire in Texas)
One of the few states in the country where in every store, restaurant, ATM, and any other place that has signage has to have the wording in both English and Spanish
And to think I live here!
 

taznut

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3059393

In a union shop you will be paid the same amount as sluggo because while the slugmeister does a sub par job he meets the basic requirements to keep his job and the contract dictates all mechanics earn 25.00 per hour. How long will you be motivated to continue working harder than the the guy next to you making the exact same amount of money you does? This is the problem with union employment in this day and age. 25 dollars an hour might be a fair price to pay a good mechanic but in a union environment you can't weed out the bad mechanics. You end up doing 30 dollar an hour work but because of the contract your employer couldn't pay you the 30 even if he wanted too. At the same time the company suffers because they have to pay 25 dollars to guys not worth 15. Productivity falls, profitability falls.
again, i dont disagree with this argument...
my stance, unions have some issues that need to be worked out... just because something is broken doesnt mean you should throw it out and not fix it... there are ways we could protect against this and help the guy that is doing his job correctly...
also again, this is the same thing that is currently happening at my job AND WE ARE NOT UNIONIZED... we all get the same percentage raise... i am the newest one there, throw more freight than anyone on my crew, and drive all of the power equipment (which most of them refuse to drive anything other than the order picker)... we had a guy leave in November and i picked up his department (so now i am doing what they use to pay 2 people to do by myself 4 out of 5 nights a week for the same pay) and i know that my raise will be about 2.5% like everyone else...
so again, this is not only the case in unions
add: its not that i dont understand your stance, i think it is pointless when we can fix the system we have and the same takes place anyhow
 

taznut

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3059482
I have a question for TAZ, am I just as evil and greedy as the corporations that send their business overseas? I can't find anyone competant enough to the job to the level I want in my business. so I no longer have employees and my wife and I do the work ourselves. Thus keeping all the profits for myself. Plus I don't have to deal with the added payroll tax expenses and accounting expenses....maybe, if the government wouldn't tax the crap out of me on some of these issues I might be inclined to pay someone for what I feel is a subpar performance. But since I have added taxes to pay for just to employ someone for crappy work, why not save myself the money.
first, i understand the costs of running a business, i haven't done it but i have been involved in setting one up (long story and doesnt really pertain so i will skip it)...
2nd, if you can do the job great, it must be a small company, thats not what i am talking about here... and it would depend on your definition of 'competent enough', from the wording of that remark it sounds like your the type of person i am complaining about... and what are you willing to pay??? are you expecting perfection for 10$/hr... if you are willing to pay what the job is truly worth you wouldnt have trouble finding someone to do it...
 

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3059708
define what we have.
We have a Corporatocracy.
The RNC and the DNC are wholly owned subsidiaries of their corporate sponsors. Without corporate donations neither could buy media time, let alone survive.
Meantime, the media (who are supposed to provide equal time to all candidates) are wholly owned subsidiaries of those same corporations.
As a result, none of those entities are able to express political "truth" for fear of losing sponsorship, which in essence = votes.
When was the last time the candidate who spent less won? Better yet, when was the last time a candidate who had no money was even invited to the convention?
It's similar to advertising strategies:
Why on earth is a GE Locomotive or a Boeing 757 advertized on the evening news to the tune of 80-100k for a 30second spot? Are you in the market for a locomotive or an airliner? Yeah, didn't think so. Neither am I.
Whoever is in that market - are they that stupid they need a commercial to remind them who builds the machines they make their money with? ('Cuz there are so many manufacturers, after all.)
So why are GE and Boeing paying for a nightly spot that less than 0 people in America are interested in?
Because if the "news" reports negatively about GE or Boeing, they can threaten the network by withdrawing 80-100k worth of nightly support.
You think converting to HD is expensive on the consumer end?
Again, better yet, why was that conversion Federally mandated?
Follow the money.
 

taznut

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3059601
From my personal experience, having run my own small business, I would also posit that there's a major difference between that and running a large corporation as well. The benefits you speak of work on a large scale. On a small scale they don't. That's part of how the game has been set up.
That's why Walmart has taken the place of small town squares. But, what does Wallyworld do about legally mandated employee health insurance? They hire their employees part time so they don't have to pay, then they hand out pamphlets in store about how to get State or Federal (paid for by you and me) medical benefits. Factor that into the cost of your cheap goods.
That's why Home Depot has taken the place of your local hardware store (where you could get or order anything you needed, and have a friendly chat with your neighbor - the owner.) Factor his empty house, and those of his knowledgeable employees, into the cost of your comparitively inexpensive drill bits, (which neither you nor the orange apron wearing "associate" was able to find.)
That's why small family farms, which made up around 75% of American agriculture in the late 60's, early 70's, have been replaced by some 6 Corporate entities. (That particular devolution was brought about by Earl Butz, President Nixon's AgSec. who famously said "Go big or get out." Odd concept for a "Conservative" administration.) I can detail the boring economic and legislative acts which led to our current state of affairs if you'd like.
Meantime, we used to have the safest food supply on earth. Now, the CDC is unwilling to point a finger at the source of last year's H7:O157 (E-Coli) outbreak for fear of offending our NAFTA "partners." Factor that into the cost of your cheap food.
It's about economies of scale functioning w/in the Gov't/Corporate/Media complex. Your elected representatives get no benefit from providing those same incentives to you, the small business owner. Oh sure, they're extended to you, but as you've pointed out, they're of no real use to you, are they?
So why do these laws exist? Whom do they benefit?
Our ELECTED Representatives benefit from their Corporate masters in the form of campaign contributions, local property tax revenues, etc. received from Wallyworld, ConAgra, Monsanto, GE, Goldman Sachs, et al. who in return get tax breaks from them.
Don't even try to tell me any of them has my
interests at heart, Republican or Democrat. If you look at the major contributors to the Obama and McCain campaigns, you'll find many of the same Corporations on both lists. In Vegas, that's called hedging your bets. In DC, it's called buying influence. I
call it rigging the game.
As for products being imported from overseas and jobs being outsourced, I have to wonder what ever happened to the mantra: "Buy American."
I'd venture to guess that a large contributing factor in its demise is that nobody knows what "American" is anymore, i.e. the phrase has been rendered meaningless...
smilies/smilies/thumbsup.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Thumbs up!" class="inlineimg" />

and what happened to buy american?? we cant afford it because we dont get paid enough...
when i was looking for my car, summer of 2008, i went to ford first (always liked ford), i was looking for something to save on gas because i drove a lot for my job and i didnt have a lot of money... they had the focus which i didnt like and it was around 20,000$... next chevy, they had the caviler and malibu, i dont like cavilers and the malibu was way too expensive, so i ended up going with a kia optima which i really liked and got it for 15,333 out the door... if i had the money i would have gone with the malibu or something else American made, but i didnt (even though i was working full time)...
 

taznut

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3059630
Nixon wasn't too bad, but it was nixon that said "We are all Keynsians now." And Keynsian economics far more closely fits the Liberal idealogy than the conservative one.
2nd walmart doesn't destroy "mainstreet." Walmart doesn't hold a gun to anyone and say you must shop here...
But that being said, I used to live in a town and Walmart came to town. And in the 10 years or so that walmart has been there, Mainstreet has boomed. The town turned into the "going into town" for a large portion of east texas. I don't buy this whole Walmart is destroying main street america bit.
it did in my home town...
 

taznut

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3059666
What we have isn't working? I don't nessesarily think so.
It doesn't make any sense to "criticize" (and you can't say that Walmart isn't villified) and American company for being bad for america (especially when they produce something like 2% of our national GDP) while complaining that jobs are going over seas. This company hires thousands of people, they have their distribution centers in podunk USA where there aren't jobs, so people can continue their way of life and not have to move into a city.
Walmart is simply responding to what the market, you and me, have demanded a cheaper product, and quality is a non issue.
If you really want to gripe about a social issue, why not complain about the disposible society we live in. Walmart was simply responding to that.
That (if I were to accept the premise) is what is destroying small town american. Not a mom and pop company recognizing a market and entering it then becoming the biggest company in the USA. That is a success story. If you have a problem with walmart don't support it by not price shopping.
Look quality manufacturing in the USA is still very strong. IT is when they build the high tolerance no mark up stuff where we are no longer competitive.
your right they are a success story, how did they get there (more importantly how do they remain there) by screwing over the employees who got them there... pay them crap and refuse them benefits..
man come on...
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by taznut
http:///forum/post/3059747
your right they are a success story, how did they get there (more importantly how do they remain there) by screwing over the employees who got them there... pay them crap and refuse them benefits..
man come on...

Funny the guy that actually works there loves him...
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by taznut
http:///forum/post/3059737

and what happened to buy american?? we cant afford it because we dont get paid enough...
when i was looking for my car, summer of 2008, i went to ford first (always liked ford), i was looking for something to save on gas because i drove a lot for my job and i didnt have a lot of money... they had the focus which i didnt like and it was around 20,000$... next chevy, they had the caviler and malibu, i dont like cavilers and the malibu was way too expensive, so i ended up going with a kia optima which i really liked and got it for 15,333 out the door... if i had the money i would have gone with the malibu or something else American made, but i didnt (even though i was working full time)...
you do realize they price the product to cover costs which include labor... So if their labor costs go up so does the price of the car...
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3059732
It's similar to advertising strategies:
Why on earth is a GE Locomotive or a Boeing 757 advertized on the evening news to the tune of 80-100k for a 30second spot? Are you in the market for a locomotive or an airliner? Yeah, didn't think so. Neither am I.
Whoever is in that market - are they that stupid they need a commercial to remind them who builds the machines they make their money with? ('Cuz there are so many manufacturers, after all.)
So why are GE and Boeing paying for a nightly spot that less than 0 people in America are interested in?
Because if the "news" reports negatively about GE or Boeing, they can threaten the network by withdrawing 80-100k worth of nightly support.
Have you read about GE and Boeing? They aren't being covered nicely. They are part of these big "evil" corporations too. You know the one that Taznuts thinks screw over the little guy. Ever think that those adds are to try and sway public perception in support or against support of government regulations or deregulation that effect their business. Have you ever heard of corporate image. GE makes stuff from locomotives to appliances. If some nutjob somehow makes the connection that GE's locomotives are polluting the atmosphere and decides not to buy the GE appliance, that does have a very negative impact on business. It is all perception and image. And public perception is very important.
Think about it this way. Say public perception of walmart was very positive. Then maybe they wouldn't have to handle lawsuit after lawsuit in order to build a store in a certain area...
Walmart doesn't do these public image adds like Boeing and GE does either. (besides GE's adds are basically free they own NBC)
 

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3059775
you do realize they price the product to cover costs which include labor... So if their labor costs go up so does the price of the car...
Thanks for the High School econ lesson. If only it were that simple.
The Chinese are outsourcing their labor to Africa because they themselves can't remain competitive in the face of declining US incomes. Meantime, they're actually laughing at our most recent bond offering's interest rates.
Watch for it. The new corporate slogan is going to be: take your pick. We can't afford to match your 401k and
subsidize your health care. Choose one or the other.
You got a lot longer to pay in than I do. I wish you luck.
 

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3059782
Have you read about GE and Boeing?
They're examples. You wanna go down this path, I could cover more, ad nauseum, if you're interested. I'll take all comers: Eveready, Union Carbide, Monsanto? Agent Orange, DDT, PCB's? Love Canal, Bhopal, Three Mile Island, Diablo Canyon??? Pick one, pick all. G'head, let's go - your safety vs mine?
Trust the company/gov't, or don't.
Think about it this way. Say public perception of walmart was very positive. Then maybe they wouldn't have to handle lawsuit after lawsuit in order to build a store in a certain area...
Or think about it this way. If they weren't doing anything illegal, there'd be no grounds for repeated and multiple lawsuits.
Walmart doesn't do these public image adds like Boeing and GE does either.
Actually, they do. They post ads on numerous networks touting the cheepniss of their products. E.g. you could save x00 dollars a year buying our nutritionally devoid breakfast products. Wait - we didn't actually make them, so it's not our fault they contain nothing nutritious, but please buy them anyway, 'cuz we gotta move this crap before it expires...
(besides GE's adds are basically free they own NBC)
Precisesly my point. Would you, as the owner of a company, allow one of your employees to badmouth you?
Ad's are not about full disclosure. It is up to you, as an informed consumer, to figure out how they're BSing you. E.g. what's up w/ the woman who sued Quaker Oats™ because Crunch Berries contain no actual berries?
Ever think that those adds are to try and sway public perception in support or against support of government regulations or deregulation that effect their business.
Having worked in marketing longer than you've been alive? The short answer is: Yes.
"Thank you for Smoking." (It's a movie, not a suggestion - though I do suggest you watch the movie.)

In all seriousness though, we could dissect the minutiae all week long, and I'm up for it, but to save all of us the time and the boring diatribes: You're missing the forest for the trees.
 

taznut

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3059775
you do realize they price the product to cover costs which include labor... So if their labor costs go up so does the price of the car...
do you realize the cost also includes their multimillion dollar bonuses for the execs???
 

taznut

Active Member
and there must be more than raising payroll costs that cause prices to go up or inflation wouldnt be out pacing incomes...
there was a story in our local paper that had all the businesses dealing with financial institutions around the area... they listed the return on stock, the % change in income, and CEO pay... there were about 30 cases listed, 5 or so had positive changes in income (the rest negative), this was also true with the return on stocks... the exec pay was a different story, well over half received an increase in their pay... there was one that received a bigger pay cut than the change in income %....
so lets look at this... company starts doing bad, people get laid off, people lose part of their savings/retirement due to stocks dropping the the CEO receives more???? here is your wonderful capitalism at work... this is true outside of this case just one i saw recently...
in conclusion, the execs can do anything they want and receive a raise while they lose money for the people under them...
using your logic i guess these guys deserved the raise, they are saving the company money by cutting costs (even though it comes at the expense of the little guys, i guess the little guy deserves it though, i mean if they would have just tried a little harder this fair system of ours would allow them to feed their kids)
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3059797
They're examples. You wanna go down this path, I could cover more, ad nauseum, if you're interested. I'll take all comers: Eveready, Union Carbide, Monsanto? Agent Orange, DDT, PCB's? Love Canal, Bhopal, Three Mile Island, Diablo Canyon??? Pick one, pick all. G'head, let's go - your safety vs mine?
Trust the company/gov't, or don't.
And how about all the ones you've never heard of, because they have their heads down and do their job...
This is a typical mechanism I see today. They take an isolated or rare incident or example, then present it in a way to imply that it is a common place. Look no company is perfect. You can't possibly expect a company that has hundreds of thousands of workers to have a perfect record in following laws or government regulations. No company has a hr department that can filter out all the morons...
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3059797
Or think about it this way. If they weren't doing anything illegal, there'd be no grounds for repeated and multiple lawsuits.
You really think that all lawsuits are legitimate claims? Besides I wasn't talking about them, I'm talking about the problems they have building stores. Like in chicago or LA. If they had a good corporate image, then people wouldn't be out chasing witches called walmart.
Originally Posted by uneverno

http:///forum/post/3059797
Actually, they do. They post ads on numerous networks touting the cheepniss of their products. E.g. you could save x00 dollars a year buying our nutritionally devoid breakfast products. Wait - we didn't actually make them, so it's not our fault they contain nothing nutritious, but please buy them anyway, 'cuz we gotta move this crap before it expires...
I said I'd never seen a Walmart is great commercial then I saw one today. lol But that just goes to show, that they aren't doing a good job on advertisement. OR I would have noticed.
Originally Posted by uneverno

http:///forum/post/3059797
Precisesly my point. Would you, as the owner of a company, allow one of your employees to badmouth you?
v> Fox does, ever watch family guy. (not that it is a good example) 30 rock is a pretty good spoof of NBC too...
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3059797
Ad's are not about full disclosure. It is up to you, as an informed consumer, to figure out how they're BSing you. E.g. what's up w/ the woman who sued Quaker Oats™ because Crunch Berries contain no actual berries?
Advertisement is a whole different ball of wax.
But imo if you're dumb enough to fall for it, then you deserve it.
Originally Posted by uneverno

http:///forum/post/3059797
"Thank you for Smoking." (It's a movie, not a suggestion - though I do suggest you watch the movie.)

That is a funny movie.
 

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3059937
And how about all the ones you've never heard of, because they have their heads down and do their job...
This is a typical mechanism I see today. They take an isolated or rare incident or example, then present it in a way to imply that it is a common place. Look no company is perfect. You can't possibly expect a company that has hundreds of thousands of workers to have a perfect record in following laws or government regulations. No company has a hr department that can filter out all the morons...
mmm - see that's where we might disagree slightly.
1st off: You are correct - it is HR's job to protect the company. Where it comes into question for me is - what has the company done that it needs protection?
Whatever it is can't be good for either one of us.
2ndly, how many companies have hundreds of thousands of employees? 5? 6? 7?
3rdly, I don't expect perfection, but if the company f*cks up, an apology might be a nice gesture. When's the last time that happened?
You really think that all lawsuits are legitimate claims? Besides I wasn't talking about them, I'm talking about the problems they have building stores. Like in chicago or LA. If they had a good corporate image, then people wouldn't be out chasing witches called walmart.
No - I absolutely do not consider all lawsuits to be legitimate claims. This country needs tort reform without question - but - we have to be careful about how it's applied, or else it has the potential to hurt all of us. Our legislators are not intelligent enough to differentiate between the two...
I.e., pilot error is no reason to sue the airplane manufacturer. I could've done it, as my dad died in a plane crash. A plane which he was piloting.
Did I sue? NO! --- For what?
I said I'd never seen a Walmart is great commercial then I saw one today. lol But that just goes to show, that they aren't doing a good job on advertisement. OR I would have noticed.
I can't argue that

Fox does, ever watch family guy. (not that it is a good example) 30 rock is a pretty good spoof of NBC too...
Advertisement is a whole different ball of wax.
But imo if you're dumb enough to fall for it, then you deserve it.
That is a funny movie.
Lol - it is pretty good. It also points out what's wrong w/ the concept of personal responsibility in our society.
I agree w/ you to an extent. The question I have is, what moral code allows one to embrace that job?
Bottom line, however, is it's a bit more complicated than: you shouldn't be allowed to vote. I'm old and if I dare say so, somewhat intelligent, not to mention, I know some stuff. Should I get to vote? Should I not?
Based on what criteria?
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3059970
I agree w/ you to an extent. The question I have is, what moral code allows one to embrace that job?
What morals? To each his own right?

But seriously, I'm not in advertising/marketing because of that. I had job offers to be.
Ultimately the world would be a better place if people followed the golden rule. And I deal with sales people, who are on commission based salaries. And this ties in with my views on Walmart, but the sales people don't see past their next sale, and are too lazy to develop relationships. And like wise if you haven't figured out by now that salesmen aren't going to tell you the truth, and you need to do your own independent research, you've made your own bed, you gotta lie in it too.
I worked a full time retail job through college that was 5 bucks an hour plus commission. I worked with people who would say whatever it took. I doubled what every one else in the store made and was the top sales man in the district which included about 100 stores. Because I'd look someone in the eye and tell him the truth. If it meant loosing the sale screw it, at least I could sleep at night. And I had a line of people. I got screwed left and right from this company. They made decision that cost me tens of thousands promised of dollars.
I still worked my butt off, and today, I make significantly more than a lot of people who played games that cost me money.
Unfortunately people just see the immediate cost, or are just too lazy.
What people value, and what is truly valuable are two different things some times. And eventually those chickens will come home to roost...
 
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