Obama's Church and ex-paster

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Ok, Obama spoke out last night to address the issue of his pastor’s outrageous comments from the pulpit. I thought Obama's comments were reasonable and I also think he was sincere. Obviously Pastor Wright is retiring now (over this) so that it won't be necessary for Obama to actually make a break from his church community.
It is pretty tough to believe that in a 20 year period that Obama was never aware of the pastor’s sentiments or heard those types of comments during the course of a "sermon". I think he was aware, even if he did not support the sentiments. He may not have ever actually been present during one of these "rallies". Time will tell as I am sure many are busy trying to see if Obama was actually present during one of those types of sermons.
I think Obama touched on something very significant and that is the African-Americans' perspective on USA history as opposed to what is generally held by the majority (white) population of Americans. It stands to reason, and is very reasonable to me, that African-Americans do have a darker view of our history and that they are shaped and still very influenced by those dark days of the past. And, yes, I'm talking about slavery, but really you don't have to go that far back to know that life was not the same for black-American citizens. Life still is not the same for many. Obama obviously sets an example of hope as he as achieved so very much.
I think nowdays, our American blacks are loosing ground with mainstream white Americans because so many of the young have embraced the hip-hop gangster culture. And, its not just the music, but a "way of life". I'm certainly not saying all, but I would say too many. To me, what was gained for blacks during the civil rights days, is being lost by the influences this sub-culture has on the young.
Rather than debate what Obama knew or didn’t know about his pastor, I’d like to hear opinions about the message that Obama gave last evening. And that is that African-Americans hold to a very different perspective about our country and our American society. The topic is obviously open to everyone but I’d love to hear from African-Americans on this subject and get their perspective. To me this issue is more important for both blacks and whites in our society, rather than trying to bring Obama down because of his association with Wright or a church that embraces Wright.
Just so everyone knows, I’m not an Obama supporter. I vote independent and have not yet made up my mind about the election.
This topic has the potential to be inflammatory and negative and I would appreciate if it did not turn in that direction. If it does, it will be closed.
 
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alexmir

Guest
I can understand that a black american might have a different opinion on the history of america, I can also imagine that native americans would have a very different look on America as a white american also, but because they are a minority (around 2 % i think) they dont seem to have as much of a fight as blacks do. I do know that when people say " White " they are often referring to everyone who is not middle eastern, black, or hispanic. There are lots and lots of ethnicities that make up " White America " and the ancestors of every one of those ethnic groups suffered hatred and wrong doing from another group of people.
I agree with everyone else that slavery was absolutely disgusting, But I dont understand why that would change the opinion of america to a black person. As a pentecostal, (a very modest one, not a back woods snake charmer!!!! haha) many of the older people in my church were beaten, hated, scared out of schools because of their religion, but that doesnt give me a right to have a bad outlook on America. Of course there are idiots that hate black people, but there are idiots that hate asian, south american, mexican, irish and all other kinds of people.
I also feel that if you go to a church, (where you and your congregation share similar beliefs) and hear a man that you look up to (His pastor) scream hatred toward White America and towards America in general, You are very affected by that. And if he says he doesnt agree with his pastor on that subject, then why go for 20 years? You find a church that the pastor and congregation have similar beliefs in God and Life as you, which shows that he may deep down feel the same way. I think Obama would be a really cool guy to hang out with, but it scares me that A man that has been told to hate white America for 20 years is about to be elected president. You can not sit through a chruch appox. 700 church services ( 35 services a year for 20 years) and not be extremely influenced by a man.
Anyways, just my opinion. Hope this didnt offend anyone, i was certainly not trying to. I just have a very strong opinoin about this subject.
(I also have very strong opinions about the other runners, but this thread is about Obama, i am not trying to single him out)
 

reefraff

Active Member
If you listen to Obama's statement he was very careful in the words he used. "I never heard MOST of those comments SITTING IN THE PEWS.
So which did he hear and was he aware of the others even if he didnt happent to have been at the service they were said at? I find it inconceivable that those comments were not discussed among the church membership. Unless Obama just showed up for services once in a while and never talked to other members I don't see how he couldn't know about all those sermons. I find it even harder to believe the outside investigation his campaign had done on him (all major campaign have their own candidate investigated just as hard as their opponent) didn't turn all this stuff up.
Pastor Wright is quoted in the times as saying he told Obama he might have to distance himself (Obama) from himself and Obama said yeah, I know. HELLO. This dog wont hunt.
 
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tizzo

Guest
Well, Beth, since I never watch the news I had to google what you were referring to...
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4443788&page=1
And I gotta say...OMG!
Holy cow, I am very shocked. He said his preacher is like the "old uncle I don't always agree with" and that everybody has somebody like that in their family.
Except you don't appoint him as your spiritual TEACHER! You don't put him in front of your "christian family" and ask him to lead the way toward the truth!!
Wow.
See, now I gotta watch the news to see how he handles this.
 
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alexmir

Guest
Although i think the things his pastor said are horrible, I dont see a good getaway out of this for Obama.
He followed after a man for 20 yrs, listening to his sermons and setting him as his spiritual leader, and now that everyone knows about it hes ashamed of it and denies hearing any of it?
So the Omama looks up to and respects his pastor, and then tells people that he didnt really agree with him and acts ashamed of it......Doesnt sound like a very noble president to me.......
 
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tizzo

Guest
IMO, it makes him look like a moron. The pastor said this, but I didn't hear it. Well, I heard some, but didn't agree with it. I went for 20 years and he was my mentor and role model.
etc...
Nobody could be that oblivious.
Supporting his preacher would at least keep the black votes (and votes of people who agree with the preacher), but denying him and acting oblivious is just downright detrimental to his campaign. Does this guy not have advisors?
 

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2519184
If you listen to Obama's statement he was very careful in the words he used. "I never heard MOST of those comments SITTING IN THE PEWS.

Sounds vaguely familiar to me. Something along the lines of "I didn't inhale" or "I didn't have relations with that woman".
 

pontius

Active Member
he was close enough to the preacher that the preacher gave him the title of his book ("The Audacity of Hope") so I think he would be pretty familiar with where this preacher stands on most issues. if he gets the nomination, I think this will become a bigger issue, and it should. If this were a white candidate who was known to have attended a church for 20+ years with a white supremecist preacher, that would be the end of his political career, at least as far as wanting to be president is concerned. he needs to denounce EVERYTHING about this guy (not just one or two quotes) and have NOTHING else to do with him. as far as I know, he's not running to be president of 15% of the country, he's running to be president of 100% of the country. so he needs to find all the skeletons in his closet and clean them out. and this is a major skeleton. because a majority of Americans are too stupid and lazy to actually educate themselves on political issues. but this is the kind of issue that even the most common and uneducated voter can hear about and latch onto and it will hurt Obamba in a bad way if he does not separate himself absolutely from this preacher.
 
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alexmir

Guest
He may be able to disassociate himself from the preacher, but you cant take away 20 yrs of influence.
And if hillary or McCain were in the Ku Klux Klan, there would be a huge uproar! I have seen documentaries on the clan, and the preachers teachings sounds very very similar, just with a different color of skin attached.
 

groupergenius

Active Member
What good does it do to denounce his preacher? He's been going to the church for 20 years. You think his views are going to change just by distancing himself?? That's crazy.
Blows me away so many people are following this guy like sheep.
"Obama stands for change." I'll bet he does. Are you sure you want that change though?? Does anybody know what that "change" will be?
 

sigmachris

Active Member
The boards have been talking about Obama's church for months and I always wondered why the media never picked up on it or the Clintons. I don't think this looks good for Obama...if he doesn't know what is going on in his own church how does he expect to run the nation? From the quotes I read it sounds very planned out and Wright is doing what he has to do to support Obama.
I agree that minorities have a right to see our history in a darker view. We can be seen has a bunch of hipocrits (sp) with the slavery, genocide, nuclear bombs and other atrocities in our history against minorities. Other countries can't practice these above mentioned atrocities but we as a nation are built upon them.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Tell ya what, Obama has the Democrat nomination locked up. UNLESS there is one of these tapes that just happens to show Obama there. That would make for such a devistating campaign commercial he could never win the General election.
I've seen it time, and time and time again. Your average Obama supporter (or at least a large number of them) can't name a specific reason why they are voting for him. All you hear is "his positive message" or whatever but they can't point to a specific policy stance past or proposed that they favor. The only way he doesn't get the nomination is if something happens to make him so unelectable the super delegates all defect. The true believers
aren't going to change their opinion or votes no matter what comes out so he's going to end up with the most delegates at the convention.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by SigmaChris
http:///forum/post/2519290
The boards have been talking about Obama's church for months and I always wondered why the media never picked up on it or the Clintons. I don't think this looks good for Obama...if he doesn't know what is going on in his own church how does he expect to run the nation? From the quotes I read it sounds very planned out and Wright is doing what he has to do to support Obama.
I agree that minorities have a right to see our history in a darker view. We can be seen has a bunch of hipocrits (sp) with the slavery, genocide, nuclear bombs and other atrocities in our history against minorities. Other countries can't practice these above mentioned atrocities but we as a nation are built upon them.
The timing of these tapes coming out has all the looks of a Clinton scortched earth policy. I wouldn't be surprised if just as this story starts to die out some information pops up proving Obama was at an service where some of these comments were made. The Clintons are skilled at cutthroat politics.
As far as some of the other things you mentioned keep in mind the US was not the first or last country to use slavery or mistreat our minority populations. As for the use of nukes it was completly justified. Japan attacked us, and did so without declaring war. How many soldiers on both sides would have been lost if we hadn't nuked them? The fact it took 2 nukes being dropped before they finnaly surrendered should give you a clue how far they were willing to go not to lose the war.
 

sigmachris

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2519313
The timing of these tapes coming out has all the looks of a Clinton scortched earth policy. I wouldn't be surprised if just as this story starts to die out some information pops up proving Obama was at an service where some of these comments were made. The Clintons are skilled at cutthroat politics.
As far as some of the other things you mentioned keep in mind the US was not the first or last country to use slavery or mistreat our minority populations. As for the use of nukes it was completely justified. Japan attacked us, and did so without declaring war. How many soldiers on both sides would have been lost if we hadn't nuked them? The fact it took 2 nukes being dropped before they finally surrendered should give you a clue how far they were willing to go not to lose the war.
I am sure it was the Clintons...I am surprised they didn't do it earlier as it may cost her the nomination.
I agree we dropped the nukes to save US lives from a deadly invasion of Japan. What I believe what makes us hipocrits (sp) is that we fight tooth and nail to not allow other nations to have nukes when we are the only one's to drop them. What gives us the right to say to North Korea, Iraq, or India that they shouldn't have nukes? I am not saying these countries should have them either though.
I know we aren't the only nation to have slavery most of the major empires in history have had them.
Another WWII analogy, why did we only move Japanese decendents to the ********? Why not German and Italian Americans, we were at war with them too? Also the Germans were a hell of a lot closer to Washington DC in their subs and U boats than the Japanese ever were to California or any Western States. Just pointing out that we were slightly biased against the Japanese. Why did we not lock up German Americans, could it be because they also had pale skin and round eyes like the majority of our country?
This is getting off the topic of Obama, so I apologize to the OP.
 

lexluethar

Active Member
I too am blown away by this. I was listening to CNN headline on XM and they were playing back some of the tapes. "The government lies, the government created the HIV virus to kill black Americans, the goverment lies" - Probably missquoted there, and i know there is a lot more 'hate cermon' out there this guy has preached. I'm blown away.
Like someone has already stated, you can't have someone as your 'spiritual leader' for 20 years and not hear this type of message. IMO he has heard these messages, and I believe it shows when he carefully tip-toes around answering questions regarding this pastor. "I wasn't there" or "I don't agree with all of it." I see it like any other facet of your life, your accountant, your teacher, your broker - if they are saying things you don't agree with, you leave. Leave the church, find another place that you agree with. I think the issue here is he hasn't left because he does closely align himself with this preacher.
I am not a minority, and I don't pretend to know how life was for a minority back in the 60's or even today (because there is definately still racism out there today - just live in missouri for a year). And i definately believe that the older generation of african-americans still hold 'white america' responsible for the atrocities of the past, and i partially don't blame them. But this is a time for change, it is the oportunity for us to move on, NOT TO forget the past, but learn from it.
Moral of the story, i'm undecided about the election, but even with Obama distancing himself from his pastor, I do not believe him when he says he didn't hear this, or that he bought into this, because he did (IMO). It definately makes me NOT support obama.
 

lexluethar

Active Member
To the OP, I would say that (i think i already kinda said it) African-Americans do have a different perspective on America. Even the younger generations. The older generations obviously (not all but most) have a different view on American because of what they've seen first hand. But i think the younger generation does too, not only because of what they've seen their parents and grandparents go through, but what some of them are still going through today. I do think that people get up in arms about racism when sometimes that isn't the case, but to believe that racism is dead is a lie. Because it is still alive and (painfully) well today. So is it that crazy to thing that young black americans have a bleak view of the future? I don't think so.
 

groupergenius

Active Member
Originally Posted by SigmaChris
http:///forum/post/2519328
....... What gives us the right to say to North Korea, Iraq, or India that they shouldn't have nukes? I am not saying these countries should have them either though.
We used Nukes to end a war that was thrust upon us. Huge difference.
North Korea- Kim Jong "mentally ill"= need I say more?
Iraq- wants to wipe Israel off the map
Iran- same as Iraq
India- wipe Pakistan off the map
Pakistan- wipe India off the map
Russia- looking to make a dime
US policy is and allways was, Nukes as a deterrent, not a threat.
 

sigmachris

Active Member
To go along with that logic...
USA - wipes the Native Indian off the map.
Anyway you slice it, we weren't that different from some of these nations not too long ago. Once again I apologize, this is getting off track from the original post.
 

groupergenius

Active Member
Originally Posted by SigmaChris
http:///forum/post/2519443
To go along with that logic...
USA - wipes the Native Indian off the map.
Anyway you slice it, we weren't that different from some of these nations not too long ago. Once again I apologize, this is getting off track from the original post.
Actually Chris, you brought it back around full circle back on track.

Our history can be viewed many different ways. And we have made our mistakes. Nobodys perfect. But in order for ANY nation to survive, you need to recognize those mistakes, learn from them, make the appropriate steps to not repeat them, and move ahead into the future. Don't keep dwelling on the past. Reliving past mistakes is what keeps bigotry and hate alive.
If we keep bringing up the history card and being US self haters....I think then that we should give North America back to England, France and Spain as well as my tribes.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Sigma, you really should start a seperate thread. That would make an interesting topic to discuss.
I'm not going to address "rev" Wright. I've been in the vanguard calling for folks to investigate this guy.
Beth, you are right. Some Americans (I'm done labeling Americans as "black" or "white" or "Mexican", etc. We're all Americans, dang it), do look at history differently.
I guess my question would be who is teaching them this alternative viewpoint?
What scares me is that you have "credible" and respected leaders of segments of the community teaching just enough "truths" to cover a multitude of lies. For instance, mention Tuskegee then follow up with statements about how drugs and HIV are being used today to suppress an ethnic group.
I'm not sure what this will do to Obama's campaign, but It's going to be very tough for him to continue with the "I'm a uniter" campaign slogan.
 
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