Obama's Church and ex-paster

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2519460
Actually Chris, you brought it back around full circle back on track.

Our history can be viewed many different ways. And we have made our mistakes. Nobodys perfect. But in order for ANY nation to survive, you need to recognize those mistakes, learn from them, make the appropriate steps to not repeat them, and move ahead into the future. Don't keep dwelling on the past. Reliving past mistakes is what keeps bigotry and hate alive.
If we keep bringing up the history card and being US self haters....I think then that we should give North America back to England, France and Spain as well as my tribes.
I agree we shouldn't dwell on the past, but one problem we have is that we have never actually addressed it..We've made changes to law and things of that nature, but we've never acknowledged the past...we've had kind of an empty apology...

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2521888
I agree we shouldn't dwell on the past, but one problem we have is that we have never actually addressed it..We've made changes to law and things of that nature, but we've never acknowledged the past...we've had kind of an empty apology...
What would in your mind constitute an apology? What would that address?

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by LexLuethar
http:///forum/post/2519332
I too am blown away by this. I was listening to CNN headline on XM and they were playing back some of the tapes. "The government lies, the government created the HIV virus to kill black Americans, the goverment lies" - Probably missquoted there, and i know there is a lot more 'hate cermon' out there this guy has preached. I'm blown away.
Like someone has already stated, you can't have someone as your 'spiritual leader' for 20 years and not hear this type of message. IMO he has heard these messages, and I believe it shows when he carefully tip-toes around answering questions regarding this pastor. "I wasn't there" or "I don't agree with all of it." I see it like any other facet of your life, your accountant, your teacher, your broker - if they are saying things you don't agree with, you leave. Leave the church, find another place that you agree with. I think the issue here is he hasn't left because he does closely align himself with this preacher.
I am not a minority, and I don't pretend to know how life was for a minority back in the 60's or even today (because there is definately still racism out there today - just live in missouri for a year). And i definately believe that the older generation of african-americans still hold 'white america' responsible for the atrocities of the past, and i partially don't blame them. But this is a time for change, it is the oportunity for us to move on, NOT TO forget the past, but learn from it.
Moral of the story, i'm undecided about the election, but even with Obama distancing himself from his pastor, I do not believe him when he says he didn't hear this, or that he bought into this, because he did (IMO). It definately makes me NOT support obama.
I knew this would be a problem for him at some time... that he would have to make a public disassociation from these statements... he has before but now it is widely known given the media's recent attention. The remarks made are not unknown ...
Many have said 911 is a direct result of our foreign policy and oil consumption.. I just watched "The Kingdom" the other day and you can clearly see the coorelation (and yes I know its a movie)
As far as America is run by rich white men... that actually is a true statement, even though it may be politically incorrect...If you look at all the significant decisions that are made in politics, entertainment, industry, Wall Street, etc... etc.. the people at the top all have the same characteristics..
The HIV statement is an interesting one.. It orginally affected homosexuals predominantly, but has since been transmitted by drugs/needles and hetrosexual behavior.. I think one problem with it is the stigma of homosexuals in the black community and how its looked upon, which causes more men to go into the "closet" and lead dual lives..thus affecting more women, which is then passed upon everyone... Now to address the statement... there is a book called "Medical Aparthied".. I tried getting it, but the library was out... I'll have to go back but here this is what its about:
Winner of the 2008 National Book Critics Circle Award for Nonfiction
Publishers Weekly
This groundbreaking study documents that the infamous Tuskegee experiments, in which black syphilitic men were studied but not treated, was simply the most publicized in a long, and continuing, history of the American medical establishment using African-Americans as unwitting or unwilling human guinea pigs. Washington, a journalist and bioethicist who has worked at Harvard Medical School and Tuskegee University, has accumulated a wealth of documentation, beginning with Thomas Jefferson exposing hundreds of slaves to an untried smallpox vaccine before using it on whites, to the 1990s, when the New York State Psychiatric Institute and Columbia University ran drug experiments on African-American and black Dominican boys to determine a genetic predisposition for "disruptive behavior."
Ms. Washington implies that the 'AIDS' vaccine did have promise for minorities but was abandoned purely because it did not help whites...She says it had promise for only asians and blacks.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2521891
What would in your mind constitute an apology? What would that address?
I am not sure the proper way of doing it... but in order to heal from the past you have to properly address it... its just like any other relationship.. I am not looking for reparations or anything like that.. but I think by acknowledging it... saying "we" as in the US... were wrong... and that we are sorry for it... and now we live by the standards that we all envision as Americans as a place that we will measure you only by the conduct of your character and not by so on.. and its is now time to unite and move past the prejustices of the past... and so on...
I am not a speech writer, but I think like during a inaguration or Presidential State of the Union... that this would be very powerful and timely... And now, people can say... okay, its been addressed, its over... I think just a few words would do a lot...

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by LexLuethar
http:///forum/post/2520360
Oh no doubt. Mr. Wright (i won't recognize him as a rev.) obviously focuses on one aspect of American society. He chooses not to talk about anything else other than the negativity created during parts of Americas past - which i'm sure he does this for a political agenda. But i think the main reason is because this type of radical preaching (if you can call it that) draws a crowd. Please realize that if he were to say these things and people bood him and disagreed with his views, then he wouldn't still be preaching. I do believe that he feels America is still stuck in the 60's, and that he has these hate speeches for the fact that it has drawn a crowd.
We are trying to 'fix' what has happen in the past, and we are making strives to make a more equal world. LIke journey said, although we shouldn't ignore those dark days of segregation, we should also focus on what is being down today to create equality. It sucks that we have people (plural because there are thousands of people in leadership positions advocating this type of message) teaching americans that American is racist, bias, and 'out to destroy' them.
One point I'll make is that I believe this was only 2 sermons, out of probably at least hundreds, if not thousands... We don't know what he has said in other sermons.. so based on these 2 alone... you can't really gage his whole ministry on them.
Obama is giving a speech about these issues in the context of race on Tuesday... I expect it to possibably a historic speech, and I think you all should try to watch it.. I think its a bold decision/statement to attack it head on, instead of just issuing a statement or hoping it goes away...

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2521938
I am not sure the proper way of doing it... but in order to heal from the past you have to properly address it... its just like any other relationship.. I am not looking for reparations or anything like that.. but I think by acknowledging it... saying "we" as in the US... were wrong... and that we are sorry for it... and now we live by the standards that we all envision as Americans as a place that we will measure you only by the conduct of your character and not by so on.. and its is now time to unite and move past the prejustices of the past... and so on...
I am not a speech writer, but I think like during a inaguration or Presidential State of the Union... that this would be very powerful and timely... And now, people can say... okay, its been addressed, its over... I think just a few words would do a lot...
So you think a President standing up and saying "I'm sorry, and now we are going to move past the prejudice" would go a long way in your and other historically wronged african-americans.
Why don't you think that Bill met this idea in your mind?

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2522012
So you think a President standing up and saying "I'm sorry, and now we are going to move past the prejudice" would go a long way in your and other historically wronged african-americans.
Why don't you think that Bill met this idea in your mind?
'In 1998, Mr. Clinton expressed regret about the United States’ role in the slave trade. And Mr. Bush harshly condemned slavery during a visit to Africa in 2003, but went only as far as saying that Africans were forced to endure an “assault on their culture and their dignity.” ....
While the distinction may seem like semantics to some, for those who have pressed Congress and state legislatures to apologize for slavery, there is a considerable difference between expressing regret — which they consider insufficient — and an unambiguous apology.
“The concept of apologizing carries special meaning to people because when a person apologizes, there’s the opportunity to accept it or reject it,” said Carol M. Swain, a professor of political science and law at Vanderbilt University who has advocated a national apology for slavery. “With an expression of regret, that’s something that you may acknowledge, but there’s no expectation that you’re going to accept it. Symbolically, the notion of an apology carries greater weight.”
So in that sense, what New Jersey did last week had significance beyond the fact that it was the first expression of contrition for slavery from a northern state.
Legislatures in Maryland and Virginia did not use the word apology in their recent resolutions condemning their history with slavery. Neither did former President Bill Clinton and President Bush when they spoke about the subject'
Its more than just the slave trade... its the 150 years after and all the things that the US government either allowed or participated in. If you want people to move past it... than there has to be some event that allows us to do this collectively.

 

[bigarn]

Sure slavery was wrong .... and all the decent people in this country will admit that. That said, all the decent people shouldn't be held responsible for what occured in the past. Let's face it .. all the apologies in the world will not satisfy some people, so realistically it's time to move on.... collectively.

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/2520567
I don't agree with the two parsed 10 seconds of sermons over 20 years, that we have been seeing on the so called liberal media. Certainly, not the approach and words in making a point. Are there 20 seconds over the last 20 years that the minister has siad that you would agree with? I fault the minister for the ministers words not the congregation being present or not. The minister is retired. Sometimes being tooo old and growing up in different times isn't good for the present time. Out with the old, in with the new
Jeremiah A. Wright on June 8, 1938
John Sidney McCain III on August 29, 1936

If Obama didn't drink the Wright Kool-Aid, Why are passages from his "sermons" in Obama's books. If Obama was not there, or aware of Wright hate speech, then Whey did he use the "white greed" quote in his Audacity of Hope book?
Mrs Obama sure seems to be a consumer.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2522048
'In 1998, Mr. Clinton expressed regret about the United States’ role in the slave trade. And Mr. Bush harshly condemned slavery during a visit to Africa in 2003, but went only as far as saying that Africans were forced to endure an “assault on their culture and their dignity.” ....
While the distinction may seem like semantics to some, for those who have pressed Congress and state legislatures to apologize for slavery, there is a considerable difference between expressing regret — which they consider insufficient — and an unambiguous apology.
“The concept of apologizing carries special meaning to people because when a person apologizes, there’s the opportunity to accept it or reject it,” said Carol M. Swain, a professor of political science and law at Vanderbilt University who has advocated a national apology for slavery. “With an expression of regret, that’s something that you may acknowledge, but there’s no expectation that you’re going to accept it. Symbolically, the notion of an apology carries greater weight.”
So in that sense, what New Jersey did last week had significance beyond the fact that it was the first expression of contrition for slavery from a northern state.
Legislatures in Maryland and Virginia did not use the word apology in their recent resolutions condemning their history with slavery. Neither did former President Bill Clinton and President Bush when they spoke about the subject'
Its more than just the slave trade... its the 150 years after and all the things that the US government either allowed or participated in. If you want people to move past it... than there has to be some event that allows us to do this collectively.
This is an interesting concept

 

[stdreb27]

I don't buy this "it was only 2 sermons" argument, or else why would have opra left? This NY times article describes Rev. Wright's sermons as "assertions of widespread white racism and his scorching remarks about American government." And goes on to say Barack "might have to publicly distance himself from me. I said it to Barack personally, and he said yeah, that might have to happen." So in my mind this contradicts Obama's ignorance argument. I just don't understand how someone could vote for a person who has willingly submitted himself to a pastor who says filth like God ---- the united states. I have other serious problems with the guy. But this really scares me as a second gen american whose family risked everything to come here because it calls into question his belief that this is a great country.

 

[blownz281]

Originally Posted by jennythebugg
http:///forum/post/2519473
i really wish i had a puking smiley . all i want to say about that is if a white or hispanic preacher was preaching like that against blacks they would be sued and probably shot
i couldn't agree more!

 

[zman1]

Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/2522249
Whey did he use the "white greed" quote in his Audacity of Hope book?.
The truth isn't always pretty

The indians express this as well...
Seemingly chaotic to Western eyes, John Lame Deer's autobiography has a meaningful structure based on Lakota numerology and oral tradition. The book explores conflicts between White and Indian conceptions of identity and property, and sees itself as an instrument in the apocalyptic triumph of Indian spirituality over White greed.
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal...accno=EJ421861

 

[wattsupdoc]

I'm not a big political bug. But I do try to educate myself on the candidates. Also, I feel as though I'm a pretty good judge of character. Obama has never set right with me. He just seems so phony. Now this fella that just became the governor of New York, that guy looks like a strong, good man. Who has overcome hardships. I hope he does well in his new office. It seems to me that it's possible he may be one that is more capable of delivering the change the black population so desires. Which is probably something we as a population need. I don't believe Obama is capable of this. I believe it will have an opposite effect.
2 years in the same church maybe, but not 20. I believe that's part of they're church's doctrine. NO AMERICAN CHURCH should condemn America. No sir. A preacher that preaches hate has hate in his heart. 2 sermons of hate, no way, 2000 is more like it. I suspect you find that there's a little hate wrapped up in all his sermons.
I wanna say that I am a male caucasian. My ancestry in America goes back to 1660. My ancestor was mulatto(sp?). My wife is 1/4 cherokee, my nieces are half hispanic. I know many people of other races who come from other countries. I personally know one 22 y.o. chinese fella who has 10X the wealth that I do. Actually, we struggle just to stay in the middle class. His wealth comes from government grants that I cant get, as well as housing illegals to work in his many restaraunts. (BTW people still do die to get here to this country the reverand d^%ed to hell). I have had my family's blood spilled in every war this country has ever had. Including the most recent. As well as probably both sides of the civil war. So we can all be free. I lived in a Japanese prison camp in northern california, that had been converted to housing when I was a kid. We were poor growing up, dirt poor. My niece and her new husband have new born twins, he works hard and all the time. They're poor. BUT!!!!!! I am an AMERICAN and D$%N PROUD OF THIS COUNTRY! Either love it our leave it.
I might be able to buy the whole apology thing, if we could hear it from someone who actually kept slaves. Lets say I was the president, what merit would it have for me to apologize for something someone else did? Shouldnt an apology come from someone who actually did wrong? How can a person apologize for someone who died 150 yrs. ago. The point is moot.
I defend anyone who is being racially victomized, we are seeing this more and more with these younger generations. I teach this to my son. Am I not doing my part?

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2522048
'In 1998, Mr. Clinton expressed regret about the United States’ role in the slave trade. And Mr. Bush harshly condemned slavery during a visit to Africa in 2003, but went only as far as saying that Africans were forced to endure an “assault on their culture and their dignity.” ....
While the distinction may seem like semantics to some, for those who have pressed Congress and state legislatures to apologize for slavery, there is a considerable difference between expressing regret — which they consider insufficient — and an unambiguous apology.
“The concept of apologizing carries special meaning to people because when a person apologizes, there’s the opportunity to accept it or reject it,” said Carol M. Swain, a professor of political science and law at Vanderbilt University who has advocated a national apology for slavery. “With an expression of regret, that’s something that you may acknowledge, but there’s no expectation that you’re going to accept it. Symbolically, the notion of an apology carries greater weight.”
So in that sense, what New Jersey did last week had significance beyond the fact that it was the first expression of contrition for slavery from a northern state.
Legislatures in Maryland and Virginia did not use the word apology in their recent resolutions condemning their history with slavery. Neither did former President Bill Clinton and President Bush when they spoke about the subject'
Its more than just the slave trade... its the 150 years after and all the things that the US government either allowed or participated in. If you want people to move past it... than there has to be some event that allows us to do this collectively.
How do you feel this concept runs along with Obama's speech today?

 

[lexluethar]

On the point of appologizing for something that was in Americas past - i don't agree with this. Although i totally agree that we must recognize what happen in the past, as someone else pointed out I don't think it will do any good to appologize for something that someone who has been dead for 100 years did. I would like to take a more pro-active approach to it. Because lets face it, if a president did appologize for what happen, or even if some great great decendant of a plantation owner appologized for what happen, it wouldn't change a d**n thing with what is going on in the country today. There would still be racism, there would still be unequal treatment, all minorities would get is to feel a little better about the situation, but then would shortly realize nothing has changed in America other than the appology.
I think we need to try to educate our youth on Americas past, good and bad. I think this is one of the only ways to ensure that our children don't repeat the same mistakes that perhaps our parents, or grandparents made. Appologizing for the past will not fix the racist actions / words of people that are living today. In fact i would argue that it would do the opposite, and make the people on the fence, or people who are racist more adimate about being racist.
I think we should fight for equality, and work on making sure that racism doesn't happen in the future. I realize it will happen tomororw in some areas whether we like it or not, and the next day, but the more we fight for equality and to crush racism, the shorter it will be for that day of no / very little racism within our country.
Sorry this was a little off topic from the OP, i just wanted to comment on some of ryan's posts.

 

[agent-x]

Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2519276
Blows me away so many people are following this guy like sheep.
But MTV told me to

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2523383
How do you feel this concept runs along with Obama's speech today?
I heard just a snippet of it on CNN... that snippet doesn't do it justice... I found the entire transcript on my local newspaper site... I agree with the speech 100%... It also speaks to the point that I brought up in an above post in regards to how we are stuck... and have never really sought to overcome our past... that we just kind of bury it... I encourage everyone interested in this to read it regardless of who you are voting for. He speaks about this issue in everyones point of view. Here is a link to the speech.
http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/...tml?page=1&c=y

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by LexLuethar
http:///forum/post/2523407
On the point of appologizing for something that was in Americas past - i don't agree with this. Although i totally agree that we must recognize what happen in the past, as someone else pointed out I don't think it will do any good to appologize for something that someone who has been dead for 100 years did. I would like to take a more pro-active approach to it. Because lets face it, if a president did appologize for what happen, or even if some great great decendant of a plantation owner appologized for what happen, it wouldn't change a d**n thing with what is going on in the country today. There would still be racism, there would still be unequal treatment, all minorities would get is to feel a little better about the situation, but then would shortly realize nothing has changed in America other than the appology.
I think we need to try to educate our youth on Americas past, good and bad. I think this is one of the only ways to ensure that our children don't repeat the same mistakes that perhaps our parents, or grandparents made. Appologizing for the past will not fix the racist actions / words of people that are living today. In fact i would argue that it would do the opposite, and make the people on the fence, or people who are racist more adimate about being racist.
I think we should fight for equality, and work on making sure that racism doesn't happen in the future. I realize it will happen tomororw in some areas whether we like it or not, and the next day, but the more we fight for equality and to crush racism, the shorter it will be for that day of no / very little racism within our country.
Sorry this was a little off topic from the OP, i just wanted to comment on some of ryan's posts.
"The document they produced was eventually signed but ultimately unfinished. It was stained by this nation’s original sin of slavery, a question that divided the colonies and brought the convention to a stalemate until the founders chose to allow the slave trade to continue for at least twenty more years, and to leave any final resolution to future generations.
Of course, the answer to the slavery question was already embedded within our Constitution – a Constitution that had at is very core the ideal of equal citizenship under the law; a Constitution that promised its people liberty, and justice, and a union that could be and should be perfected over time.
And yet words on a parchment would not be enough to deliver slaves from bondage, or provide men and women of every color and creed their full rights and obligations as citizens of the United States. What would be needed were Americans in successive generations who were willing to do their part – through protests and struggle, on the streets and in the courts, through a civil war and civil disobedience and always at great risk - to narrow that gap between the promise of our ideals and the reality of their time."
portion of Obama's speech
I agree with you that people today have issue with the concept of an apology..and I understand why... the question is "Why should I be sorry for the errors in my ancestors past? I was not there and was not responsible for their actions.. its just the way things were back then and I had nothing to do with it... etc
/>
Those sentiments are all very true...however, as I mentioned I believe its the government body's role to issue an apology...not just a regret, which is what Bill Clinton essentially did.. It should be common knowledge that many of the big US corporations greatly benefited from slavery... along with the passing of wealth from it.. But more importantly than that is our governments role in continuing the practices of slavery, Jim Crow, and discrimination in this country... In denying citizens of this country their due rights and never being able to fess up to it... The idea in my mind is simply symbolic... I also do not hold you accountable...there were many people that benefited from slavery...even some free black people of that time... So I'll wrap up by saying that if there was an apology, it wouldn't be you saying to a black person "I'm sorry for what my great,great,great,great grandfather did to yours"....nothing of that sort... but by the government saying we collectively are sorry for the errors of our past as a nation, and that we want to move on collectively.

 

[darthtang aw]

I read it. I was actually impressed considering I won't vote for him off his issues. But he did the only thing he could do and he did a good job of it. I may disagree....but some of his points he spoke very eloquently on.
However the ratification of the constitution freeing black folk and granting equal rights WAS exactly what you are looking for. The constitution granted rights to all men. There was no real need to specify race....but they did....and this was the apology and admitance their errors at the time. Segrgation was ruled un constitional and therefore the apology and admitance to its wrongfulness was done then by a government branch. What more do you want?