Obama's Church and ex-paster

lexluethar

Active Member
Ahh, gotcha ryan. That helps me understand a little bit what you are saying, because I do believe myself (and probably a lot of non minority groups) believe that is exactly what minority groups want, they want me (a white guy) to go up and say, "i'm sorry." Although I would like to add, i think the american government did do something similar (appologizing) with the Native Americans, and I think that became more a slap in the face then anything. "Oh sorry for taking over your land, but here are some non-fertile lands in Oklahoma and random segments around the country you can have to yourself." So in a way i think the government taking a step (forward?) and saying sorry for our past, may open the doors to other things like reparations, things of that nature. There are TONS of companies that made money off slavery, there are still TONS of companies today that still do.
Have you seen blood diamond? Great freaking movie, and it kinda hits on the same point of slavery, and how it is still used today. Just because it isn't happening within our boarders doesn't mean it still isn't happening.
Just for the record my grandparents were german, i think my great grandfather back in 1905 came over on the boat and started his own farm in Iowa. But i'm the average, middle class, white american. I love conversations like this one (thanks beth) because it helps me understand where some people are coming from. As I hope it helps you realize maybe where some white people are coming from...
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by LexLuethar
http:///forum/post/2523724
Ahh, gotcha ryan. That helps me understand a little bit what you are saying, because I do believe myself (and probably a lot of non minority groups) believe that is exactly what minority groups want, they want me (a white guy) to go up and say, "i'm sorry." Although I would like to add, i think the american government did do something similar (appologizing) with the Native Americans, and I think that became more a slap in the face then anything. "Oh sorry for taking over your land, but here are some non-fertile lands in Oklahoma and random segments around the country you can have to yourself." So in a way i think the government taking a step (forward?) and saying sorry for our past, may open the doors to other things like reparations, things of that nature. There are TONS of companies that made money off slavery, there are still TONS of companies today that still do.
Have you seen blood diamond? Great freaking movie, and it kinda hits on the same point of slavery, and how it is still used today. Just because it isn't happening within our boarders doesn't mean it still isn't happening.
Just for the record my grandparents were german, i think my great grandfather back in 1905 came over on the boat and started his own farm in Iowa. But i'm the average, middle class, white american. I love conversations like this one (thanks beth) because it helps me understand where some people are coming from. As I hope it helps you realize maybe where some white people are coming from...
I'm glad we were able to clear it that up...you are correct... I beleive there were apologies to Native Americans and with internmite camps..
But yes, I did see Blood Diamond, and I think it was an eye-opening movie to show you that slavery does exist.. and that people are still being exploited and that everyone has a role in it, but that the largest benefactors are these corporations whom fuel it.
But again I hope people either read the speech or listen to it in full..
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2523722
I read it. I was actually impressed considering I won't vote for him off his issues. But he did the only thing he could do and he did a good job of it. I may disagree....but some of his points he spoke very eloquently on.
However the ratification of the constitution freeing black folk and granting equal rights WAS exactly what you are looking for. The constitution granted rights to all men. There was no real need to specify race....but they did....and this was the apology and admitance their errors at the time. Segrgation was ruled un constitional and therefore the apology and admitance to its wrongfulness was done then by a government branch. What more do you want?
I'm glad you could see the good of the speech, regardles of where your vote goes... To your point, the Constitution excluded slaves...even though they said all men...blacks weren't considered men.. In regards to you saying the ruling of unconstitutional meant that is was an admittance of wrong doing so that it should sufice... I disagree with... If you truly regret a wrongdoing.. then an apology should accompany a change in behavior.
 

stdreb27

Active Member

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2521938
I am not sure the proper way of doing it... but in order to heal from the past you have to properly address it... its just like any other relationship.. I am not looking for reparations or anything like that.. but I think by acknowledging it... saying "we" as in the US... were wrong... and that we are sorry for it... and now we live by the standards that we all envision as Americans as a place that we will measure you only by the conduct of your character and not by so on.. and its is now time to unite and move past the prejustices of the past... and so on...
I am not a speech writer, but I think like during a inaguration or Presidential State of the Union... that this would be very powerful and timely... And now, people can say... okay, its been addressed, its over... I think just a few words would do a lot...

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2522048
'In 1998, Mr. Clinton expressed regret about the United States’ role in the slave trade. And Mr. Bush harshly condemned slavery during a visit to Africa in 2003, but went only as far as saying that Africans were forced to endure an “assault on their culture and their dignity.” ....
While the distinction may seem like semantics to some, for those who have pressed Congress and state legislatures to apologize for slavery, there is a considerable difference between expressing regret — which they consider insufficient — and an unambiguous apology.
“The concept of apologizing carries special meaning to people because when a person apologizes, there’s the opportunity to accept it or reject it,” said Carol M. Swain, a professor of political science and law at Vanderbilt University who has advocated a national apology for slavery. “With an expression of regret, that’s something that you may acknowledge, but there’s no expectation that you’re going to accept it. Symbolically, the notion of an apology carries greater weight.”
So in that sense, what New Jersey did last week had significance beyond the fact that it was the first expression of contrition for slavery from a northern state.
Legislatures in Maryland and Virginia did not use the word apology in their recent resolutions condemning their history with slavery. Neither did former President Bill Clinton and President Bush when they spoke about the subject'
Its more than just the slave trade... its the 150 years after and all the things that the US government either allowed or participated in.
If you want people to move past it... than there has to be some event that allows us to do this collectively.


Originally Posted by Rylan1

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I heard just a snippet of it on CNN... that snippet doesn't do it justice... I found the entire transcript on my local newspaper site... I agree with the speech 100%... It also speaks to the point that I brought up in an above post in regards to how we are stuck... and have never really sought to overcome our past... that we just kind of bury it... I encourage everyone interested in this to read it regardless of who you are voting for. He speaks about this issue in everyones point of view. Here is a link to the speech.
http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/...tml?page=1&c=y
Well this is what I'm wondering, you seem to be saying that an apology will go along way in ending this "racial divide" Obama's speech seemed in my mind to say, it will take a long time to heal the "racial divide". I kind of get an all will be well with an apology vibe from you. And from Obama's speech I get a not anytime soon type vibe. What is your take on that?
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2523828
I'm glad you could see the good of the speech, regardles of where your vote goes... To your point, the Constitution excluded slaves...even though they said all men...blacks weren't considered men.. In regards to you saying the ruling of unconstitutional meant that is was an admittance of wrong doing so that it should sufice... I disagree with... If you truly regret a wrongdoing.. then an apology should accompany a change in behavior.
The Constitution as far as I can remember made no mention of race other than Indians. Anyway there were free blacks in the country dating back to the 1600's. The Constitution didn't omitt rights to blacks, it just didn't prohibit slavery.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2523626
I heard just a snippet of it on CNN... that snippet doesn't do it justice... I found the entire transcript on my local newspaper site... I agree with the speech 100%... It also speaks to the point that I brought up in an above post in regards to how we are stuck... and have never really sought to overcome our past... that we just kind of bury it... I encourage everyone interested in this to read it regardless of who you are voting for. He speaks about this issue in everyones point of view. Here is a link to the speech.
http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/...tml?page=1&c=y
So you believe Race is the largest issue the country faces today? You believe Obama can't disown his mentor? You believe Reagan was elected because of an immigrant backlash to affirmative action? you believe the constitution of the United States is permanently stained by the "original sin" of slavery? You believe trying to make "America" apologize for slavery is the way to unify the country? You believe misunderstanding "balck anger" is widening the chasm of the races in America? You believe reverse racism is bogus? You believe lobbyists, special interest groups, and Corporate America are responsible for "white" anger over Affirmative Action?...
I hope everyone will read the speech as well. The mask came off today. Obama showed he is not a "unifier". He refused to distance himself from his "rev" and instead attempted to justify his "pastor's" behavior. Obama completely contradicted his statements last week that he had never been present when his "rev" delivered a controversial sermon. He blew off "reverse" racism. He endorsed Affirmative Action. He made it clear, and even said, racism is the most important issue of this election. The list goes on.
Please, everyone read the speech...
 

jennythebugg

Active Member

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2522048
Its more than just the slave trade... its the 150 years after and all the things that the US government either allowed or participated in.
If you want people to move past it... than there has to be some event that allows us to do this collectively.

hmmm tell ya what , how about all the white folks that were alive during that time to participate in all the slave/hate stuff apologize, because i am not willing to admit guilt and apologize for something i had no say in, nothing to do with, nor was even alive to witness , and i don't expect my children to have to either , why should members of our government that had nothing to do with it have to apologize. i don't get it
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2523722
What more do you want?
I would say, when will it ever be enough!
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2524223
So you believe Race is the largest issue the country faces today? You believe Obama can't disown his mentor? You believe Reagan was elected because of an immigrant backlash to affirmative action? you believe the constitution of the United States is permanently stained by the "original sin" of slavery? You believe trying to make "America" apologize for slavery is the way to unify the country? You believe misunderstanding "balck anger" is widening the chasm of the races in America? You believe reverse racism is bogus? You believe lobbyists, special interest groups, and Corporate America are responsible for "white" anger over Affirmative Action?...

Originally Posted by jennythebugg

http:///forum/post/2524441
hmmm tell ya what , how about all the white folks that were alive during that time to participate in all the slave/hate stuff apologize, because i am not willing to admit guilt and apologize for something i had no say in, nothing to do with, nor was even alive to witness , and i don't expect my children to have to either , why should members of our government that had nothing to do with it have to apologize. i don't get it

My sentiments as well. I dont htink my son should have to apologize, but I do think he shouldnt tolorate racism either. Really it sickens me, to see racism of ANY kind. Right now, it sure feels like this white man is more persecuted than many of other races.
I didnt read it all, but heres a clip from it.
The fact is that the comments that have been made and the issues that have surfaced over the last few weeks reflect the complexities of race in this country that we’ve never really worked through – a part of our union that we have yet to perfect. And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges like health care, or education, or the need to find good jobs for every American
It appears that if we dont elect him were never going to make any progress. Evidently, racism is the reason I cant afford health care. dam, I thought it was our healthcare all out of whack. Due to bad doctors, wacked out lawsuits and so on. It's all rhetoric.
You cannot follow a man you dont believe in. We left our church when it became apparent that homosexuality was no longer a sin in our pews. The finacial loss by condeming it was evidently a greater sin. You leave, you look elsewhwere and move on.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2524609
I did feel like it was a vote for me because I'm black type speech.
I'll take it a step further. It was a "A vote against me is a racist vote" speech. He definitely implied that people voting against him are doing so because of his race.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2523688
"... but by the government saying we collectively are sorry for the errors of our past as a nation, and that we want to move on collectively.
Rylan, 3,000+ years ago the Egyptians kept the Jewish people in slavery. So should "Rev" Wright and the Continent of Africa issue an apology to them?
When does it end? How far back do we go? Should the Spanish apologize to the Incans and Mayans? The Turks to the descendents of the Holy Roman Empire? The British to the Celts?
"rev" Wright hates the USA. Obama now admits to hearing "controversial" sermons while in church. Obama's wife has stated that the first time she was ever proud of America in her adult lifetime was now that her husband is running for president. Obama himself has said some very questionable things about the USA, including in his speech today. I believe the opinions are related.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2524723
Rylan, 3,000+ years ago the Egyptians kept the Jewish people in slavery. So should "Rev" Wright and the Continent of Africa issue an apology to them?
When does it end? How far back do we go? Should the Spanish apologize to the Incans and Mayans? The Turks to the descendents of the Holy Roman Empire? The British to the Celts?
"rev" Wright hates the USA. Obama now admits to hearing "controversial" sermons while in church. Obama's wife has stated that the first time she was ever proud of America in her adult lifetime was now that her husband is running for president. Obama himself has said some very questionable things about the USA, including in his speech today. I believe the opinions are related.
It really is to bad he decided to dive to go all in with the race card. Had been placing that pretty good up until this point. It was all a mask.
 

zman1

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2524609
I did feel like it was a vote for me because I'm black type speech.

Originally Posted by 1journeyman

http:///forum/post/2524717
I'll take it a step further. It was a "A vote against me is a racist vote" speech. He definitely implied that people voting against him are doing so because of his race.
It was a first class from the heart speech, a presidential speech. You hate it don't you? A diamond compaired to your cubic zirconia.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Here's a sample of the class of people supporting Obama
Black backers steadfast for Clinton
By: Josephine Hearn
Feb 28, 2008 06:38 PM EST
Updated: February 29, 2008 05:56 PM EST
African-American superdelegates said Thursday that they’ll stand up against threats, intimidation and “Uncle Tom” smears rather than switch their support from Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton to Sen. Barack Obama.
“African-American superdelegates are being targeted, harassed and threatened,” said Rep. Emanuel Cleaver II (D-Mo.), a superdelegate who has supported Clinton since August. Cleaver said black superdelegates are receiving “nasty letters, phone calls, threats they’ll get an opponent, being called an Uncle Tom.
“This is the politics of the 1950s,” he complained. “A lot of members are experiencing a lot of ugly stuff. They’re not going to talk about it, but it’s happening.”
After civil rights icon Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.) switched his support from Clinton to Obama earlier this week, other black superdelegates have come under renewed pressure to do a similar about-face. A handful have bowed to the entreaties in recent weeks, including Georgia Rep. David Scott, but many say they are steadfast in their support for Clinton and resent strong-arm tactics to make them change.
Rep. Diane E. Watson (D-Calif.), a black lawmaker and Clinton backer, said the intense lobbying for Obama would not alter her vote.
“I’ve gotten threatening mail,” Watson said. “They say, ‘Your district went 61-29 Obama and you need to change.’ But I don’t intimidate. I can hold the ground. … I would lose my seat over my principles.”
Clinton seeks to regain the spotlight
HRC announces best fundraising month yet
Campaign ads are a mockery
Neither Watson nor Cleaver faces a strong reelection threat at this time. Cleaver’s Kansas City-area district narrowly supported Obama in Missouri’s Feb. 5 primary.
Black superdelegates are getting heavy pressure from such groups as ColorOfChange.org, a grass-roots organization whose members overwhelmingly support Obama.
“Some [Congressional Black Caucus] members are threatening to vote against their constituents, and perhaps against the will of the American people, by casting their superdelegate vote for Sen. Clinton,” the ColorOfChange.org website reads. “We can prevent this from happen by letting black leadership know we're watching.”
But Watson said that she could not see switching her vote simply because Obama is black.
“I don’t support one type of person above all others. How would that message resonate with Koreatown?” she asked. Watson’s Central Los Angeles district is 35 percent Latino, 30 percent black and 12 percent Asian-American, including many Korean-Americans.
The Clinton campaign, for its part, has been working hard to keep its superdelegates on board. On a conference call with reporters Thursday afternoon, Clinton adviser Harold Ickes said he and campaign manager Maggie Williams had “spent a lot of time talking to our superdelegates over the past week,” and that they are “holding fast.”
The Clinton camp released a statement Thursday touting the defection of Obama supporter Veronica Escobar after polls in Texas, Escobar’s home state, showed Clinton leading among registered Hispanic voters by 62 to 21 percent.
Rep. Gregory W. Meeks (D-N.Y.), a Black Caucus member, said he is still “very strong” for Clinton even in the wake of Lewis’s turnaround. He was unmoved by discord in his Queens district, which backed Obama in the New York primary.
“Some people threw out flyers. That doesn’t faze me at all. If someone wants to run against me, that’s democracy,” he said. “Sen. Obama is a very inspirational person. People in the district are proud. I’m proud. You can’t not be proud being an African-American… But I have to do overall what’s in the best interests of my district.”
Cleaver questioned why white superdelegates such as Massachusetts Sens. Edward M. Kennedy and John F. Kerry weren’t being targeted to support Clinton after she carried their state.
“If white people were being harassed and threatened because they were not supporting a white candidate, we’d see headlines,” he said.
Cleaver said he did not believe the Obama campaign was behind the disturbing e-mails and phone calls he has received.
“I refuse to believe that Sen. Obama gave orders for something like this to happen. This is a contradiction of the new politics that Sen. Obama is running on,” he said. “My fear is with all of the nastiness, we’re going to have a whole lot of kissing and making up to do as a party.”
Yeah, and Obama never heard Wright's racist rants from the pew either
 

scubadoo

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2521944
One point I'll make is that I believe this was only 2 sermons, out of probably at least hundreds, if not thousands... We don't know what he has said in other sermons.. so based on these 2 alone... you can't really gage his whole ministry on them.
Obama is giving a speech about these issues in the context of race on Tuesday... I expect it to possibably a historic speech, and I think you all should try to watch it.. I think its a bold decision/statement to attack it head on, instead of just issuing a statement or hoping it goes away...
No one snuck inside the church and recorded these hate rallies. The dvd's and/or tapes were sold by the church to the public. If this was not a central theme and/or RARE theme...why was it recorded and hocked to the public?
Yeah..I heard the "speech".. Nobama now wants to be the champion for race realtions...I think that is a great idea...I have but one request...plesae send him a memo and tell him to strat with his "rev".
Why did Oprah leave the "flock"? maybe she figured out that poison was no good and she used her good judgement and left.
He's only NOW talking about race because he was smoked out of his pew by the hate message tapes I thought on Friday he claimed he never heard it...but today he claimed he was present?
Before today, the only racism I heard Nobama discussing was pointing fingers to others as being racist or guilty of racism. If he wants to lecture America about racism and race relations good...please have him start with his hater pastor.
 

scubadoo

Active Member
Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/2524736
It was a first class from the heart speech, a presidential speech. You hate it don't you, A diamond compaired to your cubic zirconia.
If speaking from the heart...why was he reading from a teleprompter?
 

scubadoo

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2523626
I heard just a snippet of it on CNN... that snippet doesn't do it justice... I found the entire transcript on my local newspaper site... I agree with the speech 100%... It also speaks to the point that I brought up in an above post in regards to how we are stuck... and have never really sought to overcome our past... that we just kind of bury it... I encourage everyone interested in this to read it regardless of who you are voting for. He speaks about this issue in everyones point of view. Here is a link to the speech.
http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/...tml?page=1&c=y
He still states support for the racist hater. He also now lied. he stated last week he was not in the pew...never heard it...today he said he did?
 

scubadoo

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2524730
It really is to bad he decided to dive to go all in with the race card. Had been placing that pretty good up until this point. It was all a mask.
He really had no choice. He was caught supporting an individual and a church that is Far left..and filled with hatred for the government, whites, jews, etc. The church was so involved in hate...they decided to honor the champion of hate Farrakahn. ..plus included this in the loving and unifying message from the church on the tapes/dvd's they were hocking.
When you have a serious presidential contendor involved this heavily in this type "organization"...plus publicy supporting the one delivering the poison....what could he do?
The one pointing the fingers at others regarding racism...has now been smoked out as supporting an institution peddling the same poison he was accusing others of doing.
I'ms sure the church may have done some positive things...but so have folks that are in jail.....and I'm sure I can find some good deeds David Duke has done. THis does not mean they get a free pass on the poison they sell.
-
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/2524736
It was a first class from the heart speech, a presidential speech. You hate it don't you? A diamond compaired to your cubic zirconia.
Not really, I do think this hurts the guy. He walked right into the clinton trap they've been laying since NC, now he is fair game for the clintons. he revieled who he really is, a far far left wing liberal, and highlighted his absolute ignorance on economic policy. Tried to connect his hater pastor to the conservatives, this was politics on display.
 
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