Ok, political thought..only read if interested

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Legion
The issue is not which situation is relative to another, the issue is the use at all. I DO NOT deny them as a buffer. You can use religion to justify almost anything. Saddam was doing his will(or maybe gods will) and the US did its will and Christ told us not to kill. His use is clearly unjustified, are us is slightly grayer. But I tell you what alot of people in Japan died from those bombs...(civilians).
We used terrorism in a war environment! It had exactly that impact..period. And that was what we intended.
The whole idea of mutually assured destruction is juvenile. Its just one of those things you wish we could uninvent...but atom splitting has practical uses.
My biggest peev is if you invade a country, have a reason. If this was desert storm we would not be debating and the gov. should have removed him and set up the democracy then. But we caved under pressure, this time we made a more rash desicion. When they invaded kuwait, it was totally justified to rub him out. You cannot let countries conquer others. It just didn't work out and to much time past.
More civilians were killed by conventional bombs in Germany than in Hiroshima and Nagosaki. War was waged differently 60 years ago. Civilians were considered legitimate targets.
Mutually assured destruction is greatly responsible for the defeat of the Soviet Empire.
Imho we had a reason to invade Iraq. Iraq attacked our pilots over the No Fly Zone and violated other parts of the desert Storm Treaty. That's an act of war to me

 

[seasalt101]

and if none of you care to remember bush said in one of his first speeches after 9/11 that this war on terrorism will take along time to accomplish our goals he stated several years and everyone didn't seem to mind then, but we lose a few soldiers and all the liberals cry our troops are in harms way duh, they are human it's like they believe because we are americans that they are superman or some other superhero, war cost lives we've lost around 3400 of our soldiers about what we lost on 9/11, if the congress would show a little more support and drop the defeatist attitude and let the soldiers do what soldiers do we could be out of there a lot faster, but these posters that are against the war now there parents are probably the one's that spit on our soldiers after viet nam wher we lost 52000 soldiers to there loss of over 2 million but the media does what they do all negative slant to it and we lose, and the sheep listen...tobin

 

[aandwrobert]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
More civilians were killed by conventional bombs in Germany than in Hiroshima and Nagosaki. War was waged differently 60 years ago. Civilians were considered legitimate targets.
Mutually assured destruction is greatly responsible for the defeat of the Soviet Empire.
Imho we had a reason to invade Iraq. Iraq attacked our pilots over the No Fly Zone and violated other parts of the desert Storm Treaty. That's an act of war to me

more civies were killed by conventional bombs because they were bombed for 4 YEARS by not only the US but by britian as well and we droped hundreds of thousands of bombs on germany we droped 2 on japan that is the point
In the first day of the war in Iraq we bombed a kite flying contest and killed no soldiers only civilians
in 1985 the CIA tried to take out a terrorist leader by car bombing a mosque we failed and killed 150 women and childen
you say we can win this war in 2001 we sent in special forces to take out good old bin they droped in close to where he was but they attacked the wrong MOUNTAIN!!!

 

[scgator]

AAND - You are totally glossing over the fact that the Germans and Japanese both targeted civilians. Research the battle of britain. I don't think it is germain but since you keep bringing up WW2 here goes...Have you ever heard of the "death camps", the japanese occupation of the philipines, etc. Most of the time when at war the adversaries seek to de-humanize their opponents to justify any attrocities.You seem to ignore the fact that through out history war has been made and civilians have been targets. The difference here is that when the news reports civilian casaulties they do so in a tone of contempt as if it were our intention to kill civilians. Next you will be saying that Jane Fonda is a great american and the POWs she betrayed deserved to be tortured to death.
You have been badly misinformed about the world we live in. Please don't take my word for it. Research SEVERAL different sources and DECIDE FOR YOURSELF the truth. It scares me to think that our future will be decided by those who choose not to think for themselves. I don't care if you agree with me or not I just want to see you make your own decisions and learn FOR YOURSELF the truth of things instead of simply believing what you are told.

 

[scgator]

Mike
I apologize if it seems that I am disparaging a whole generation. I should not judge based on one or two. It just seems as if no one knows history anymore. I think things have been too easy in this society for too long. We don't think for ourselves anymore. The media tells and we believe with never a thought to whether the reporting in impartial or not.
I'm sorry...again I am generalizing. Maybe my perception is biased due to the fact that those with the biggest mouths are those with nothing to say. Your post was thoughtful and again I apologize if you felt lumped into the "parrots".
Chris

 

[aandwrobert]

Originally Posted by scgator
AAND - You are totally glossing over the fact that the Germans and Japanese both targeted civilians. Research the battle of britain. I don't think it is germain but since you keep bringing up WW2 here goes...Have you ever heard of the "death camps", the japanese occupation of the philipines, etc. Most of the time when at war the adversaries seek to de-humanize their opponents to justify any attrocities.You seem to ignore the fact that through out history war has been made and civilians have been targets. The difference here is that when the news reports civilian casaulties they do so in a tone of contempt as if it were our intention to kill civilians. Next you will be saying that Jane Fonda is a great american and the POWs she betrayed deserved to be tortured to death.
You have been badly misinformed about the world we live in. Please don't take my word for it. Research SEVERAL different sources and DECIDE FOR YOURSELF the truth. It scares me to think that our future will be decided by those who choose not to think for themselves. I don't care if you agree with me or not I just want to see you make your own decisions and learn FOR YOURSELF the truth of things instead of simply believing what you are told.
no I know that!
the great purge was another bad one but um what I was saying is that droping the hydogen bomb was a bad loss of life that didnt have to happen. I do think for my self and I dont see how you think I dont I dont watch the news or listen to talk shows but I do read 3 news papers and read books as of now I'm reading the rise of the taliban I'm not the dumb brat every right winger here thinks I am!!!
and what about us giving the native americans small pox blankets does the fact its smaller than the other things people do make it less important?
I for one agree with the war in afganistian and as of now we cant just pull out of iraq its just not something thats possible but we can do is stop thinking that the middle east could invade us hell new york has more people than half of the midle east and with the royal Iraqi army gone they no longer have a super power on there side besides china

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by aandwrobert
more civies were killed by conventional bombs because they were bombed for 4 YEARS by not only the US but by britian as well and we droped hundreds of thousands of bombs on germany we droped 2 on japan that is the point
In the first day of the war in Iraq we bombed a kite flying contest and killed no soldiers only civilians
in 1985 the CIA tried to take out a terrorist leader by car bombing a mosque we failed and killed 150 women and childen
you say we can win this war in 2001 we sent in special forces to take out good old bin they droped in close to where he was but they attacked the wrong MOUNTAIN!!!
Aandwrobert;
I, and I'm sure most other posters on here are done trying to take you seriously. You hate America (I suspect because you think it's cool to be a hippy and because you think hating America is the hippy thing to do). We get it...
If you would like to have a meaningful debate feel free to contribute. We will treat you as an adult and listen to your points of view. You have failed to do so thus far. All you do is take 1/2 truths and totally made up nonsense and spew it out in the form of rambling paragraphs.
This forum has good debates at times. There are several posters in this thread that I totally disagree with, yet respect for their ability to express their opinions and argue for what they believe. Jmick is a fine example. He and I agree about .001% of the time. Still, I have to think carefully when I respond to one of his posts. That's what it is about; making someone on the other side of the debate think.
You're not tryin to do that... you just make up stuff, post it, and move on to post more nonsense. You've been proven wrong, not in your opinions but in the "facts" you have posted repeatedly.
On behalf of those who argue your side better; Please stop. Either behave like an adult or move on....

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by aandwrobert
more civies were killed by conventional bombs because they were bombed for 4 YEARS by not only the US but by britian as well.....
Please research WWII at least a little bit.... we didn't bomb Germany for four years in any meaningful way... The Luftwaffe held air superiority over Western Europe until forces were redeployed in preperation for the invasion of Russia.
Aircraft, especially fighters could not travel long distances during the early part of WWII.
You are correct; we did kill a lot of Japanese in the dropping of 2 atomic bombs. We also ended a war. Don't forget how many Chinese civilians were being massacred by imperial (I know you like that word) Japnaese forces. It numbers in the millions (between 7-11 million)... So, you can hate the USA for using atomic weapons, but seems to me that ending a war by killing 100,000 to save millions was a dificult but wise decision.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by scgator
Mike
I apologize if it seems that I am disparaging a whole generation. I should not judge based on one or two. It just seems as if no one knows history anymore. I think things have been too easy in this society for too long. We don't think for ourselves anymore. The media tells and we believe with never a thought to whether the reporting in impartial or not....
Agreed. That's not a political statement either. America as a whole, is turning into a nation of lazy, self indulgent, uninformed and uneducated bunch of spineless socialists.

 

[aandwrobert]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Aandwrobert;
I, and I'm sure most other posters on here are done trying to take you seriously. You hate America (I suspect because you think it's cool to be a hippy and because you think hating America is the hippy thing to do). We get it...
If you would like to have a meaningful debate feel free to contribute. We will treat you as an adult and listen to your points of view. You have failed to do so thus far. All you do is take 1/2 truths and totally made up nonsense and spew it out in the form of rambling paragraphs.
This forum has good debates at times. There are several posters in this thread that I totally disagree with, yet respect for their ability to express their opinions and argue for what they believe. Jmick is a fine example. He and I agree about .001% of the time. Still, I have to think carefully when I respond to one of his posts. That's what it is about; making someone on the other side of the debate think.
You're not tryin to do that... you just make up stuff, post it, and move on to post more nonsense. You've been proven wrong, not in your opinions but in the "facts" you have posted repeatedly.
On behalf of those who argue your side better; Please stop. Either behave like an adult or move on....
I dont hate america but I dont like those who are pariotic its pointless and most wars start when two nationalist shoot at each other like in say WWI and WWII to a point
cold war is russian nationalist hating us
we as a nation are not very nationalist but those that are think they are better than everyone who is not if you say pariotism is a good thing think of sudicide bombers they are part of that 1% finatical islamic population that are or say the native americans? or the chinese who as a nation will become the world super power within 5-10 years do you want 1.2 billion chinese nationalist?
as saying me being cool about hating america think again SC is a red state all over and being close to bob jones who say if you listen to rock music or have a jewish friend you are going to hell doesnt help....
think about what i say before saying its rubbish

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Agreed. That's not a political statement either. America as a whole, is turning into a nation of lazy, self indulgent, uninformed and uneducated bunch of spineless socialists.
LOL, I knowly know two people who are socialist and they both have PHD's...
You seem like you are very threatened by people who don't share your ideals...do you consider anyone who is liberal to be a socialist? I think you must because I don't see America as a socialist nation so you just lump everyone who is on the other side of the fence into one category. I bet you make up your mind on issues very quickly and once you do you don't change them...

 

[jmj6239]

ok a couple thoughts from a vetran of both OEF (pakistan 02) and OIF (Iraq 03).
1. Most importantly what you see on tv is not everything that happens, has happened, or goes on in Iraq. How often does the media report all of the positive???
2. Every Iraqi I met was glad we were there, and thanked us continuiously, they traded with us and tried to help us. A lot of those fighting us there are not even iraqi!
3. If we were not over there they (terrorists) would most definately be here. We leave, they will come.
4. Those who are talking about N. Korea, we are still at war with them have been since the 50's, we signed a cease fire agreement, not a peace treaty!
5. The U.S. is the only country to take control of another only to give control back to the people of that country. S. Korea, Germany, Philipines, AFGANISTAN and IRAQ (Soon).
6. How many people get killed in our nation's capital everyday??? I'd bet it is more than the troops we loose in battle!
Just a little thought, look at the big picture and look at it from every angle before you go making your decisions and run your mouths. don't trust the media or politions. Trust the troops and their commanders, we can and have made Iraq a better place.
I'd would gladly go back again if I had the opportunity.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Jmick
LOL, I knowly know two people who are socialist and they both have PHD's...
You seem like you are very threatened by people who don't share your ideals...do you consider anyone who is liberal to be a socialist? I think you must because I don't see America as a socialist nation so you just lump everyone who is on the other side of the fence into one category. I bet you make up your mind on issues very quickly and once you do you don't change them...
Sorry, I phrased that badly. What I meant to imply was that we are seeing more lazy people, more uneducated, more socialists, etc.
I don't make up my mind quickly, nor do I refuse to change it. I do however, refuse to give ground on a belief until I'm shown good reason to.
As for socialism in the USA, just listen to our politicians... gas price control, universal health care, taxing the rich, death tax, etc.... And I firmly believe socialism is a very dangerous form of government.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by aandwrobert
I dont hate america but I dont like those who are pariotic its pointless and most wars start when two nationalist shoot at each other like in say WWI and WWII to a point
cold war is russian nationalist hating us
Patriotism is pointless? It's tragic that you could type that on Memorial Day.
Originally Posted by aandwrobert
...think about what i say before saying its rubbish
I believe every post you've made I've responded to point by point. I said I was done doing that and I am. Even this last point was full of made up "rubbish".

 

[darthtang aw]

I love the oil debate...but there are many points made on both sides that have no facts to back them up. They are just Blanket statements.
Sure the cost of pumping oil hasn't gone up, in fact, it has gone down a tad. Not much, but pumping the oil is the cheap easy part. Hell farmers in the heartland do it themselves in some areas. Not to expensive in the grand scheme. So the oil part is yes cheap and with production increased in Iraq plentiful.
Now to where the problem is. Refinement. The cost for refinement has gone up with closing down plants and tightening regulations on them. So with less plants the main ones are working overtime to refine...which increases costs dramatically. (If you want I can go in to this further, but the average person should be able to figure out why).
Last year the U.S. oil companies made a NET profit of 5 billion dollars. The year before that it was almost 6 billion. Yet gas went up and they made less profit? Because cost of operations/wages/and taxes/ have gone up.
5 billion Sounds like a lot doesn't it and they should be able to not make as much of a profit and cut back the price? Look at it a little further...this is the exact same amount of money that if they cut all their profit the could only be able to give 4-6 gallons of gas free to each american living in the U.S. Basically they would give you each about 20 dollars and kill their profit for the whole year.
Going to Iraq for oil doesn't line the oil companies profit....they already have enough places to pump out of for a longtime....So MORE oil doesn't make them any richer....more refinery's would....How many refineries are in IRaq? Oh yeah, none....

 

[darthtang aw]

Before I forget, a person would ghet a bigger price cut if the state would cut their tax on gas...as it is normally around 75 cents per gallon they add to the price for the taxes.

 

[sharkboy13]

ok lemme just spread what my knowledge is, we went to iraq cuz there wer WMDs, saddam had WMDs, just now now, ten or more years ago, al Qaeda is in both iraq, afghanistan, and the phillipenes, the only reason the invasion of iraq wasnt called "operation iraqi liberation" (the original name of it) was cuz it spelled "OIL", we r not wanted in iraq by our people and their people, basically the way i see it is we r demolishing a small oil rich country that really only had a prob w/ us ten or fifteen years ago, when we invaded, saddam was bush's culprit of 9/11 and frankly, we're all to blame, we all supported OIF becuz we wer pissed after 9/11 and ready to beleive any1 who was arabian and we had probs w/ now or in the past, hell if bush said "israels to blame!" we'd be tearing up israel, if bush had said "jordan's to blame!", and now becuz of our foolishness we've got outselves into a situation where half wants to leave and half wants to stay so wer pretty much stuck (democracy's a bitch isnt she?) and until theres something stable in iraq we're stuck sending our boys over to be killed and mamed whether they want to or not

 

[reefreak29]

1. I suspect you mean Haliburton. Pr. Bush has ties to Major League Baseball; are we building a stadium in Baghdad?
OH COMMON U JUST MAJORLY side steped that . why is it that in mr. bushes last term gas prices have skyrocketed out of control. because they have there hands in oil . there definatly makeing money before there out theres no doubt in my mind.

 

[reefreak29]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
I love the oil debate...but there are many points made on both sides that have no facts to back them up. They are just Blanket statements.
Sure the cost of pumping oil hasn't gone up, in fact, it has gone down a tad. Not much, but pumping the oil is the cheap easy part. Hell farmers in the heartland do it themselves in some areas. Not to expensive in the grand scheme. So the oil part is yes cheap and with production increased in Iraq plentiful.
Now to where the problem is. Refinement. The cost for refinement has gone up with closing down plants and tightening regulations on them. So with less plants the main ones are working overtime to refine...which increases costs dramatically. (If you want I can go in to this further, but the average person should be able to figure out why).
Last year the U.S. oil companies made a NET profit of 5 billion dollars. The year before that it was almost 6 billion. Yet gas went up and they made less profit? Because cost of operations/wages/and taxes/ have gone up.
5 billion Sounds like a lot doesn't it and they should be able to not make as much of a profit and cut back the price? Look at it a little further...this is the exact same amount of money that if they cut all their profit the could only be able to give 4-6 gallons of gas free to each american living in the U.S. Basically they would give you each about 20 dollars and kill their profit for the whole year.
Going to Iraq for oil doesn't line the oil companies profit....they already have enough places to pump out of for a longtime....So MORE oil doesn't make them any richer....more refinery's would....How many refineries are in IRaq? Oh yeah, none....
your correct we need more refineries, we maxed out in the 70s so why havnt they built more? why they would make less money.sounds pretty crappy to me

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by reefreak29
OH COMMON U JUST MAJORLY side steped that . why is it that in mr. bushes last term gas prices have skyrocketed out of control. because they have there hands in oil . there definatly makeing money before there out theres no doubt in my mind.
Ok... let's try this a different way.
How does the President make money on the war in Iraq? What company is he invested in?