OT: war in Iraq

[radioactive]

Mike
I agree it is very nice to see interest rates down below the national average , but , so are retirement programs . Do you think construction businesses are going to save the economy from going into a tailspin ?
I just think that there are more issues overseas than we actually hear . There is oil no doubt about that , there are probably bombs that need to be destroyed . So lets get rid of the bombs - kick Sad - Ass and hope that Greenspan will help Bush with this mess of a economy we have fallen into .
Texas - Oil ..... gas prices --- barrell prices -- give a damn tax break to people that have to pay 2.00 a gallon or more to get back and forth to work .....

 

[shrade]

Originally posted by reef fool
I hate talking politics but,
Thank GOD that Gore isn't running things! Or Clinton for that matter!
With that said -
I voted for Bush, I back him 100% to this point, and I think any of these spineless

[hr]
that protest our freedom and can't see the need to get rid of Hussein and Bin Laden, should move to Iraq for a few months and see how those poor people actually live. As for the little Bit#@ that turns her back to the flag during the national anthem, She should be attached to the first bomb dropped!
If you hate this country...GET THE F@#K OUT!
God bless all of our troops and those of our allies. Get this necessary task done as quickly and efficiently as possible. And most of all, return safe!
My opinion as I am entitled,
Frank

Thank you Frank!!!
I served during Desert Storm and left the service in 92 as a disabled vetran at age 22. I will never be able to walk again without pain to remind me of what war is about.
One of the things that is so great about this nation is that, you do have the right to your opinion. You do have the right to speak your opinion. You do have the right to turn your back at the flag during the national anthem. That is what makes America....America.
But I will tell you this, we all have the right to our freedom. And to any moron that believes the atrosities happening to humans in other parts of the world are better off without our intervention is a complete and total idiot.
My feelings are this, you have your freedom here. Speak what you think. But.... and always remember this....RESPECT THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE AND DIE TO PROTECT IT. RESPECT THE FACT THAT THE FLAG YOU TURN YOUR BACK ON TODAY WILL BE THE ONE YOUR BEGGING TO SAVE YOUR A$$ TOMORROW.
AND IF YOU DO NOT RESPECT THIS COUNTRY...GET THE FU@K OUT!!!!!!
my .02 worth
Lets get it done!
Mike

 

[radioactive]

skilos
we will see what happens in the coming months . I agree that they are hiding bombs and not letting the UN find what is needed and destroyed but we have big issues in America that need dealdt with immediatly , not in 2 months but now . agree or disagree ? you have your opinion and I have mine , this has been a great debate , but , as wamp stated , it will not change my views unless I see this leader of ours start talking more about the issues with the economy and stability of companys within our OWN country . Let Mr. Powell take care of issues with Iraq - he is a stand-up individual and carries himself well .
We have a jobless and homeless rate along with a poor education system in some areas that need to be focused on .
I didn't set the consumer confidence rating ... AMERICA DID !!!!
I respect your views .... keep them coming ... I have an open mind ....
Cheers

 

[mikegronholz]

slick - you must have not read where I said "Bush, Jr. is taking this to personally" !!! Why is he in a hurry, it's personal !!!
Is Bin Laden dead ? I personally think not, but YOU (or anyone) cannot confirm nor deny.
radioactive - Construction itself will not save the economy. I was simply making visible the shift in the financial power in the US currently. Right now, the financial power is shifting from big business to the little guy. Especially after MCI and Enron.
skilos1 - I agree with most of what you said (the jury is out on some of the other). Why would a person/country pay HUGE amounts of money to destroy what is inferior to the wrath it would get back ? It wouldn't, instead, Iraq spent that money creating bigger, badder, better eapons. Problem is, we are still 1 step ahead.
Oil makes the world go round. Gas is up, then gas is down. My biggest question is this:
If my Mobil bill goes up at the pump, why doesn't my cost go up when I buy my oil for oil changes. Comes from the same place......

 

[jrb384]

just curious,
if we invade IRAQ,
How many reef tanks will get blown up?
wonder how big the hobby is in that part of the world, or other parts. i mean are their any national aquariums in the middle east?
just food for thought.
also, someone quoted me for posting about the economy, that wasnt me I dont think. I'm a blue collar worker and i dont have tons of money to invest and throw around, but fortunately for me i work in law enforcement and i'm also working on my degree in nursing, so as long as their are bad guys and sick people, I should always have a steady job.
Other than that I only commented about the fact that if Saddam was littering, or killing animals, instead of killing his people, that our nation would be in an uproar.
jb

 

[radioactive]

the financial power is shifting from big business to the little guy.
on a side note ..the little guys are folding also . If big businesses fold , so do the little ones . A lot of little businesses supply bigger businesses ...
They have sure knocked out the daytraders and persons with little money to put into the market ... the bigger institutions will survive if handled properly , but the little guy has no choice but to get out with the little cash they have left .... disagree ?

 

[beanie]

skilos1 i read history books, dont try and tell me we did not go over there the first time trying to kill him, and we did not succede there for if he gets away twice, the USA is an imbarassament... thank you

 

[jarre]

I've enjoyed reading most of your thoughts and opinions.
I will agree the Bush has taken this personally and to some degree that is a good thing. When was the last time you can remember a president whom acted out of a personal belief instead of a political agenda? Bush has listened to his advisors and shown restraint in many ways so I'd have to say he has tempered his personal feelings with maturity. You don't see Bush arguing over the meaning of the word "is" to evade responsiblity. I would happily take back my post in the Navy to stand ready for this Commander and Chief!
So far as the economy is concerned. It will not ever become steady again if we allow terriorist to have their way. Look at any country who has been a victum of terriorism for any length of time and I don't think you'll see a stable economy.
Of all the opinions I've read there is one point I haven't seen made so I'll make it now. We are the victums of terrorism and have one of two choices.
1) Have the resolve to prevent being victumized again or 2) Lay down a stay a victum.
I don't see it any other way in this matter. No matter how ugly wars may be, and believe me it is Always ugly - it beats the ulternitive!

 

[broncofish]

Where is the proof that Saddam has or will support or supply weapons to terrorists? There is none.
He never has, in the 10+ years since the gulf war, when our intelligence agancies were sooooo weak, and it never happened? Why because there are no plans for it. Iraq is such a weak nation they could'nt even take over that terrorist harbering country we call a freind(saudi arabia). Of all these war supporters I want you to show me evidence. Give me a link, and I mean a credible source not some link to rushfathead. com. Show me that picture of saddam putting his feet up on a 10g bucket of VX, or an audio conversation recorded of Saddam telling osama heres the fed ex tracking number for your box of anthrax. I know he bombed the kurds with gas, but take a wild fu*&ng guess what turkey is going to do to the kurds with all that aid(cough cough bribe) money we are giving them. HMMMM let saddam kill kurds for free, or pay the Turks to do it. Reef fool were cool, I just think that protesting is a great freedom that eveyone has the right to.

 

[overanalyzer]

OK I have stayed out of this for a long time but I am just going to hop in here briefly:
1. What are the major differnces bewtween this time and the last time we went to war with Iraq?
2. The girl that is a DIVISION III Basketball player is garnering national attention and she has been doing this flag thing since the begining of the season. Why? Not to protest the war but to protest how American policy now seems to put women at a disadvantage and focus on the rich getting richer ..... so now some girl whom 99.9% of us would never have heard about is generating national attention and I have to ask WHY? We allow flag burning in protest in the US and one college kid turning her back in a game that matters only to a few thousand people now has people so outraged that sports talk radio is going political and Rush nearly has a coniption fit on an hourly basis? Remember those kids who acted goofy and wanted attention then continued to act goofier - yes what she is doing is beyond goofy and into the disgusting/morally reprehensible range - but she has already had too much air time and far more than she deserves. Let her protest - that first ammendment is beautiful please lets not tarnish it by suggesting a protester be strapped to a bomb .....
3. Why was the UN formed?
4. Anyone remember the league of nations and what happened when countries began ignoring it??

 

[trompet3]

Even though this conflict has nothing to do with oil, I think it should be. We should finance the war with Iraqi oil. We should also make Kuwait pay for the first war. A country that rich and we ended up paying the bill for a war to liberate them.

 

[striker]

Sadam has supported terrorism and it is a fact. He sends thousands of dollars to the families of Suicide bombers. Just today Blix uncovered a missle loaded with a biological substance that has yet to be identified. He's admitted to having anthrax and several other biological and chemical weapons and it has been recorded by the U.N. Blix has even admitted that these are missing and unaccounted for. If you aren't convinced then talk to the thousands of troops that are sick from symptoms after the first war. I'm sorry but I'm sick and tired of hearing these lame excuses for not going to war. I respect those that are against the loss of innocent lives in Iraq and the casualties we will suffer from war and completely agree with this argument. Most of the other arguements I've heard are ridiculous(oil, revenge, Sadam isn't a threat, etc..)
I'm also completely amazed how soon September 11th has been forgotten. We were at peace on that day. America wasn't on a mission or war path on that tragic day yet we were attacked and our lives were forever changed by terrorists that are dedicated to destroy our way of life and beliefs. Despite the support and compassion received from the international community and those in our own country I don't think the severity of what happened that day has been fully understood. Bush is angry and driven but he was at ground zero days after the attack. That day will forever be on my mind and I'm sure it is behind many of the decisions he makes today. We can no longer afford to sit back and keep an eye on potential dangers from a distance but take an aggressive role and try to prevent another terrorist attack from happening again.

 

[jrb384]

I was just curious. How credible is scott ritter?
he was a marine officer, he rose to the rank of major in 8 years. thats good. thats dam good. after the gulf war which he served in he was a un weapons inspector. my question is, is he credible? or did he sell out to the dark side? He says the time he was an inspector they destoyed tons of stuff.
he openly calls for more evidence and was a thorn in bush's side for awhile. theres like 3 investigations going on into his activity since he started speaking out, I think the fbi, or cia is saying he is an agent for israel, then they switched and charged him with being an agent for iraq.
just curious, anyone have any info on him or his story?
jb

 

[broncofish]

Originally posted by striker
Sadam has supported terrorism and it is a fact. He sends thousands of dollars to the families of Suicide bombers.................................I'm also completely amazed how soon September 11th has been forgotten. We were at peace on that day. America wasn't on a mission or war path on that tragic day yet we were attacked and our lives were forever changed by terrorists that are dedicated to destroy our way of life and beliefs...................
As far as your first point, do a little reading on that and you'll discover the leader in paying out to suicided bombers is Saudi Arabia. Last I check we fully stand behind Israel even when they disobey UN resolutions(hey isn't that why we want to invade Iraq?)
As for your second point, where is the connection. I lost a freind, and the world lost an awesome EMT that day, but invading Iraq won't bring my friend back, and they had nothing to do with the suicide bombers, almost all of whom were....SAUDI ARABIAN, are we seeing a connection people.

 

[drkegel]

Wow - there are a lot of interesting viewpoints out there.
I don't think Bush is taking any of this personally. And I don't think he's in a hurry. We've been monitoring the situation there for what - like 12 years? How much more time do you think the Iraqis deserve before they disarm? Blix just said today he doesn't think Iraq is taking disarming seriously!
League of Nations - as I mentioned in my earlier post, Hitler made a mockery of it, just as Hussein is making a mockery of the UN today. And what happened was WW2!
As for the Roman Empire - there were many reasons why it fell. I've never heard that theory before - but the books I've read on the topic focus on the army shifting from the army being a means of Romanization to essentially a band of mercenaries, along with insane (literally) emperors, climate changes, and the Huns. I'm not a historian, but I do like to read history. But the Roman Empire was really fascinating, and incredibly successful for hundreds of years. To bring something like that down takes a lot more than just one factor. But I digress.
I still think that if you make a law - you have to enforce it. So far, the UN has made 17 laws in regard to Iraq, and has yet to enforce a single one. We don't need any more laws, we need some enforcement!
As an American, I'm offended at all this talk of "imperial" US. When is the last time the US took any territory at all and annexed it into the US government? That hasn't happened in many years - the only example I can think of would be the American Indians, and possibly the Panama Canal, which has since been given back to Panama. Do people really think we're going to take over Iraq? I really don't believe the US will have it's 51st state in the Tigris-Euphrates river valley. Did we take over Germany or Japan or Kuwait or Iraq (in '91) or Grenada or Afghanistan? On the contrary - we've spent a whole lot of money developing governments in those areas, promoting the same free society that we enjoy here. iraq being the exception - but our mission wasn't to get Hussein, although I think it should have been. The Marshal Plan after WW2 demonstrates the model. Our continual presence in Afghanistan protecting Karzhai perpetuates that model. After Hussein is overthrown, I'm sure we'll do the same thing. Even if we tried to take over Iraq, do you think China or Russia or France or Germany or any country would let us? Oh heck no. In my opinion, preaching the fear that the US is somehow this "imperial" state is a big conspiracy theory with very little factual evidence behind it. Conjecture simply isn't fact.
I don't think the US is a police state. I pretty much think any other country in the world more closely resembles a police state than the US does. Now I'm sure a dozen people are going to come up with a dozen examples of where I'm wrong (in Amsterdam, you can smoke pot legally. I don't consider that a basic freedom, however) - but please show me another nation on this planet where the people have the freedoms they have in this country. "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence." For all the laws and regulations we have, we still have the most freedoms.

 

[drkegel]

So which UN resolution has Israel violated? The UN created Israel, and the Palestinians (along with the most of the Arab world) have been mad ever since! When some Arab nations (Egypt comes to mind) tried to make peace with Israel, the leader of the nation (Anwar Sadat) was assasinated by ........ terrorists!
Please post the resolution numbers Israel has been in violation of, and a place where I can verify it.

 

[jarre]

DrKegel - I shake your hand!!!!
jrb384 - Scott Ritter has lied nationally so I don't know how much of what he says is accurate or how much I would believe.
broncofish - Your first point is not accurate. Sadam has and continues to payout $25,000 checks to the suicide bombers families.
Your second point is on the mark with one exception. As long as Sadam continues to payout the checks he continues to motivate and support suicide bombers.
To me Sadam paying out checks shows a Valid link to terrorism!! And is part of the smoking gun a lot of people wish to ignore.
Saudi Arabia is and will be a problem for awhile, but we can¡¦t devastate the region by taking on all of it at one time. One of the ways to get the Saudi¡¦s to change there ways is to remove the dependence on there oil. Hit them in their most prized possession ¡V the wallet!! ƒº

 

[broncofish]

Originally posted by DrKegel
Please post the resolution numbers Israel has been in violation of, and a place where I can verify it.
Uhhhh. How about UN.org I could cut and paste all day but here are a few excerpts. All come from UN.org, and the list goes on for days.
The Economic and Social Council this morning endorsed, by a recorded vote, the decision of the Commission on Human Rights to establish, on an urgent basis, a "human rights inquiry commission" to gather and compile information on violations of human rights and acts which constitute grave breaches of international humanitarian law by ISRAEL in the occupied Palestinian territories.
Under further terms of the decision, adopted by a vote of 21 in favour to 19 against with 11 abstentions, the inquiry commission would provide the Commission on Human Rights with its conclusions and recommendations, with the aim of preventing a repetition of such VIOLATIONS. (For details of the vote, see Annex.)
Israel had commenced “a bloody campaign” against the Palestinian people, involving excessive use of force, indiscriminate use of power, and brutal killing of innocents, in most cases, without any justification. The deliberate murder of civilians and the infliction of massive punishments had suffocated the Palestinian economy and turned the community “backward”.
By the terms of the draft on Jerusalem, the Assembly would deplore the transfer by some States of their diplomatic missions to Jerusalem, in violation of Security Council resolution 478 (1980), and call once more upon those States to abide by the provision of the relevant United Nations resolution

 

[broncofish]

Originally posted by Jarre
broncofish - Your first point is not accurate. Sadam has and continues to payout $25,000 checks to the suicide bombers families.
Your second point is on the mark with one exception. As long as Sadam continues to payout the checks he continues to motivate and support suicide bombers.
To me Sadam paying out checks shows a Valid link to terrorism!! And is part of the smoking gun a lot of people wish to ignore.

No my first point is dead right, 25,000 is nothing compared to the millions Saudi raises(they literally have fund raisers on TV like Jerry's kids)
So what your saying is we attack every country in the middle east(they all contribute to Palestine terrorists). Also do we invade almost 1/3 of the Irish pub owners in Boston because they have supported the IRA, or how about invading China because the have been a constant source of terrorism in Tibet, or maybe we should invade every south American country because they have contributed in one way or another, or better yet we'll pull out of a ton of nuclear treaties, enviromental treaties, and refuse to support an international court that could actually have the authority to try terrorists, OH wait we've already done that, and GEEWHIZ I wonder why most of the world does not support are war. And to all the Fench bashers, we would be Her Majesties Royal colonies right now if not for the French, it's called history, read it love it learn it. I'm unsubscribing from this thread because Thick skulls don't absorb information. Listen I'm all for war, as soon as you show me a link between Saddam and terrorism that effects us, as in U.S. or good evidence showing proof of him hording enough chemical weapons to authorize an attack, not a little bit here and there,heck we could not account for all are weapons if they asked.

 

[slick]

I keep hearing people say that we are defending our freedom. I have a problem with this statement. Iraq posses no direct threat to us at the present time. What we are doing is protecting the weak from the bullies. Nobody in the middle east even wants us to come over there. Hello this is there part of the world. Lets stay the heck out of there and let them deal with there problems. There is a point when we have to step in and stop the maddness but that time is not now.