OT: We caught Saddam!!!

[wrassecal]

Originally posted by Daniel411
You probally have a better chance of being struck by lighting than being struck by a terrorist in the mid-west.
Daniel, that's jut not the world we live in anymore. We were attacked by terrorists. Remember the OKC bombing? They used some our own home grown government haters. There is video of Nichols and McVeigh hanging out in OKC with some Iraqi's that were relocated here after the Gulf war and there are documents proving Nichols took trips to the Phillipines where he visited Al Queda training camps. The government will not release those tapes or the tapes from the buildings surrounding the Murrah building although there are people lobbying congress to get them released. The FBI withheld thousand of pages of information related to the investigation. We had the same terror and fear all that day of the Murrah building bombing as did those in New York. I had a cousin and his father in that building but, they got out alive. For weeks you couldn't drive around this area without seeing funerals and fresh graves. Since 9/11 it's been easier to sweep the remaining questions about the OKC bombing under the rug but, around here we still want answers.
On August 1st of this year a good friend of mine was at a wake boarding competition that he and another friend started five years ago. He was standing in a group of about 30 people in a camping area at around 8pm at night. He was struck by lightening which entered the top of his head and shot out through his fingers and toes. He was dead before he hit the ground. The people he was talking with felt no more than a strong static shock. The nearest thunder storm was 5 miles away. Jason was 29 years old and left a widow and a 4 year old daughter.
I'll still go west to the beach for Christmas and I'll still enjoy and do everything I would do before but I am no longer as naive as I used to be. Maybe that's part of the answer to Sammy's question. Americans suck it up, voice their opinions, use their vote, use their dollars, volunteer for their country's military, and keep going after their "American" dream even in the face of great adversity.

 

[fishman830]

omg thats so sad

 

[overanalyzer]

Maybe that's part of the answer to Sammy's question. Americans suck it up, voice their opinions, use their vote, use their dollars, volunteer for their country's military, and keep going after their "American" dream even in the face of great adversity.
I would whole-heartedly agree - I also think part of why this country is so great is because of what i said earlier:
"And because the citizens not only have the right but they have a DUTY to question their government and its actions!!"
Jean Paul Sartre wrote several essays on freedoms and the constraint of being free. I believe that part of that freedom is knowing it has to be defended.
While I live north of OKC by a far shot - I still have greater fear of lighting than a terorist attack. I also firmly believe that the capture of Saddam - while great for Iraq does not lessen the chances of a terrorist attack in this country.
Lastly - as a big fan of THE OSU (GO BUCKEYES) I have grown up watching the rose bowl. I hope you root hard for those hated wolverines so USC gets punked and the lesser OSU can lay claim to the national title!

 

[wrassecal]

Overanalyzer, I was with you all the way to the end. Then you had to go and remind me you are a buckeye fan and ruin your credibility

I don't worry about lightening striking or being attacked by terrorists. I just now know that they both can and do happen. And anywhere is possible.

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by Wrassecal
Overanalyzer, I was with you all the way to the end. Then you had to go and remind me you are a buckeye fan and ruin your credibility

I don't worry about lightening striking or being attacked by terrorists. I just now know that they both can and do happen. And anywhere is possible.
LOL - well if it helps I'm also a KU graduate?? Of course this is basketball season .... but it's the only sport we have a shot against OU in......

 

[wrassecal]

KU?? That helps none at all. We'll see how the season goes. BTW, I'm really enjoying my west coast trip even though the terror alert is high......we were at our favorite cove at Laguna during low tide and we got further out in the tide pools than ever. It was amazing the giant orange starfish, purple urchins, and I swear there was a big family of what looked like lawnmower blennies. Lots of flower anenomes and a lot of them were out of water. They just close up til the tide comes in. Lot's of soft corals and macro algae. I of course got one picture before the camera batteries went dead. What a dummy I am. I guess I'll post my one little pic when I get back home.

 

[reeferdude]

Originally posted by Wrassecal
Daniel, that's jut not the world we live in anymore. We were attacked by terrorists. Remember the OKC bombing? They used some our own home grown government haters. There is video of Nichols and McVeigh hanging out in OKC with some Iraqi's that were relocated here after the Gulf war and there are documents proving Nichols took trips to the Phillipines where he visited Al Queda training camps. The government will not release those tapes or the tapes from the buildings surrounding the Murrah building although there are people lobbying congress to get them released. The FBI withheld thousand of pages of information related to the investigation. We had the same terror and fear all that day of the Murrah building bombing as did those in New York. I had a cousin and his father in that building but, they got out alive. For weeks you couldn't drive around this area without seeing funerals and fresh graves. Since 9/11 it's been easier to sweep the remaining questions about the OKC bombing under the rug but, around here we still want answers.

You really see a connection there? The IRA go weapons and training from Gaddafi so I guess that makes them all Islamic Fundamentalist too right? If Mr. McVeigh was an Islamic terrorist don't you think he would have let everyone know about what a martyr he was going to be and why don't you see little Arab children holding pictures of him right along side with Osama in those Anti-US rallies. I think this is even a bigger stretch then the Iraq-Al Queda connection.

 

[wrassecal]

Originally posted by Reeferdude
If Mr. McVeigh was an Islamic terrorist don't you think he would have let everyone know about what a martyr he was going to be and why don't you see little Arab children holding pictures of him right along side with Osama in those Anti-US rallies. I think this is even a bigger stretch then the Iraq-Al Queda connection.
I didn't say McVeigh and/or Nichols were martyrs or in any way considered by themselves or others to be Islamic jihadists. I said they were home grown government haters used by the terrorists. I hardly think he would "have let everyone know about what a martyr he was" when he was just a dumba$$ American "white shadow" and got caught trying to get the heck out of Oklahoma in a car with no license tag. That's my whole point. Terrorists have infiltrated our society/culture and learned it and some of it's weaknesses and have used that against us.

 

[ace ventura]

woot woot

:yes:

 

[jlem]

Originally posted by jferrier
As I have said Saddam is no angel I'm sure, but I hear him compared to Hitler and I just haven't seen the evidence. Maybe I have been asleep but I have seen pictures and videos of the Jews in Germany, but have never seen footage of Iraq in this way. I'm not saying Saddam hasn't done these things, but please someone direct me to a website where I can see it for myself. [/B]
:notsure: :notsure:
Watch the news and documentaries on the subject of sadam. I have yett to see a documentary that shows sadam as a saint that gave his people flowers instead of executions. You mentioned an anti war website, did you go to any pro war websites or just the sites that appealed to you

 

[jferrier]

JLEM,
I WATCH THE NEWS! I sometimes obsessively research middle eastern history, and both pro and anti-war sites.
This piece is from yahoo news: " In nine months, not a single item has been found in Iraq from a long and classified intelligence list of weapons of mass destruction which guided the work of dozens of elite teams from Special Forces, the military, the CIA and the Pentagon during the most secretive, expensive and fruitless weapons hunt in history."
And I found these "anti-war sites" searching for sites that showed proof of these atrocities. Maybe they exist, but as I said in my previous reply tell me where to find this proof. Where
on the web or what tv station had aired such evidence?
I'm in no way saying these things didn't happen, but isn't America founded on innocent until proven guilty? Just because daddy and W say its so, it doesn't make it a fact !

 

[wrassecal]

"A particularly gruesome feature of Saddam’s willingness to wage war without scruple is his unhesitating use of chemical weapons to suppress the Kurds, making Iraq the only state in the world ever to have used them against its own citizens. Survivors were interviewed by Amnesty International officials in October 1988, who reported: “Some of those interviewed said members of their families, including children, had died instantly as a result of chemical attacks, while others were too seriously wounded to flee. Iraqi troops were said to have first used chemical weapons, then entered the affected villages, dynamiting the houses or razing them to the ground with bulldozers.”
jferrier, it took me about 10 seconds on google using key words genocide and Hussein to find the above on the internet. There is a distinct difference between Hitler and Hussein. Hussein killed citizens of his own country. Of coure there are people who deny the holocaust happened too. Interestingly (at least to me) I'm studying about "holocaust deniers" in one of my classes right now. One of the great things about the US is you can believe anything you want to believe.

 

[daniel411]

Originally posted by jferrier
From the news reels apparently every person over there owns guns, you can see all of them firing them in celebration of the capture. If things were really that bad there why didn't they overthrow him themselves? They are obviously armed.
Why, because look what he did to their children, wives, etc. Massive chemical bombardment of entire villages/cities. Even the most determined revolutionary would think twice after watching their families destroyed. Many in Iraq have tried to overthrow Saddam. Thats why even while in power he rarely had public appearances, was always moving, avoided certain areas of his country, and placed loyalty towards him as the most important trait of persons placed in positions of power within his government.
Yes, Iraq has/had one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world.
Wrassecal, What kind of class are you taking on "holocaust deniers"?

 

[wrassecal]

This class is on the "Argument Culture" of America. It covers how we are a culture that through our media, politics etc have become agonistic and combative, many times for the sake of entertainment. The deniers are in reference to the appearance of our media to sanction such people by featuring them in the media arguing their point of view. Never before has anything like this been given any type of credibility when there is overwhelming proof and survivors are still alive. Very interesting stuff.

 

[peejfish]

wow reefdude do you live in iraq...your ridiculous....you say we shouldnt've helped the people yet you udnerstand he killed millions of them...thats like saying if one of your family members is killing the rest that the police shouldn't help because its a family problem and none of their bussiness...its all for the greater good man..or should i say dude

 

[daniel411]

Originally posted by Wrassecal
This class is on the "Argument Culture" of America. It covers how we are a culture that through our media, politics etc have become agonistic and combative, many times for the sake of entertainment. The deniers are in reference to the appearance of our media to sanction such people by featuring them in the media arguing their point of view. Never before has anything like this been given any type of credibility when there is overwhelming proof and survivors are still alive. Very interesting stuff.
Sounds like an interesting class. I'm a bit unfamiliar with the whole holocaust being a conspiracry trent. Although it has been popping up in different news sites around the world quite a bit this past year. I thought that the "denials" started out, coming from europe itself, not america? Or atleast I'm finding more references to it in european online newspapers vs. american.

 

[wrassecal]

There hasn't been a lot about it since 9/11 in America. We've got "hotter topics" to debate since then, I guess.

 

[overanalyzer]

Interesting - I thought the whole denial group was pretty small and fringe. THe high school I used to teach at (catholic) had a family who did not believe. The Freshman class covered a novel and the holocaust in detail (in English and history - a co-taught class). It was an interesting encounter to talk with the kids (and the parents) even though I never taught the class ....
I had relatives in Germany at the time and my great-grandmother would not leave her apartment (she was Jewish) so she was killed (great-grandfather not Jewish so he was "ok" to stay)... I have no tolerance for those folks who think the holocaust did not happen ...
Back on point of this debate though ....
peejfish you state: "you say we shouldnt've helped the people yet you udnerstand he killed millions of them"
So what happened in Gulf War 1 when President Bush removed support for the rebels trying to supplant the Sadam Hussein regime? George the elder decided that he had faced enough political pressure and he left thousand of rebel insurgents hanging in the wind to be slaughtered by the pro-Hussein military. We as a country had the opportunity to help back then ... heck many of our military units witnessed the retreat and defeat of the rebel forces in Iraq .... but we did nothing .... so what changed in that time frame to make it necessary for us to go in and rescue these people? We had the opportunity to do it back in the early 90's ......

 

[naturelover]

"my enemies enemy is my friend" theory has been used in most wars and end up in bad consequences. Someday it will be Pakistan on lineup just like iraq was once.

 

[wrassecal]

Originally posted by overanalyzer
Interesting - I thought the whole denial group was pretty small and fringe.
That's the point of what we are studying; that American media will give a platform for "fringe" to give their opinions and therefore in the minds of Americans lend them an air of credibility for the sake of confrontational entertainment.