OT: We caught Saddam!!!

[flamewrasse03]

We try and control the world around us to our benefit and other countries hate us for it, and we can't understand why. Maybe we war because at heart its really survival of the fittest, and maybe that will never change.
The sole purpose of a country's government is to benefit and protect it's civilians. If getting involved in other peoples business is going to prevent them from messing with yours, financially or physically why not. Every country is out for itself, it's just that we have more resources and an ability to do so much more because of the great people that make up this country. Not everything is free in life, things come with consequences. If you don't appreciate this country for what it is and what it has given you I say get the hell out

 

[fshhub]

Originally posted by skilos1
i don't think the same goes for saddam, he has been documented for years for being an oppressive leader and killing and raping his citizens. It's comparing apples to oranges.
although, what you say makes sense, unfortunately what was said stands.
There are loyal followers to sadam, he does have many who hate him, but in his own country, there are many who still remain loyal. Not just a handful, but a rather large percentage. We are currrently haveing issues with protesting and such, just because we caught him. So, there is proof that there are those who think him a great man. UNFORTUNATELY, no mattter who you are or what you do, there will always be those who agree and those who disagree. Even in cases of extremes, such as god and satan(if you believe, this si not a religious debate just an example) there are those who follow and those who hate each one and remain loyal, till the end. Even though morality says that satan is everything that is evil.

 

[tru conch]

i can personally attest that some iraqis think that saddam is a great man.
we had some increased activity after his two sons were killed, but it was pale in comparison to the activity after saddam was caught. i was on the recieving end of lots hostile ak47 fire, it wasnt a pleasant experience.
but the iraqi people have been grossly mislead for years. examples:
they think they won the first gulf war.
they think our tan m1 abrams tanks are made out of wood
they believe our night vision googles can look through their clothes
and the list goes on of myths that they take for truths
not all of the iraqis are like that, but enough of them will believe anything that al jerzerra (the arab tv station) will put out for the truth.

 

[jferrier]

Originally posted by Flamewrasse03
If you don't appreciate this country for what it is and what it has given you I say get the hell out

You know I really get tired of hearing that! If you think I don't realize that we have wonderful freedoms and opportunities that other countries don't have then you are sadly mistaken. I am not some anti-war crybaby. Its awesome that Americans will risk their lives to help others have a better life.
Our country is where it is today because it is strong and proud and because its troops are brave and committed. But, if these lives are going to be risked then it should be for a war based on genuine reasons. When propaganda and stretching the truth is used and when our leaders stand to benefit directly or indirectly financially or otherwise from their own policy making then it calls in to question the very legitimacy of a war. Some people think giving Iraq freedom is a good enough reason for war regardless of any hidden motives, I'm just not one of those persons. Even the French were able to revolt and overthrow their goverment. So support your own beliefs. Enlist.

 

[wamp]

If you don't appreciate this country for what it is and what it has given you I say get the hell out
I too have to speak up on this statment. The whole point of this freedom we enjoy so much is you being able to make that stament and me being able to dis-agree with it. Just because someone does not agree with the war, or questions our leader does not mean that they should leave or that they don't love their country. I faught with my parents when I was little and disagreed with everything they said or stood for. Should I have left the house???
Rember 1/2 the country did not support our leader during the election. So, 1/2 the country can dis-agree with him now.
Don't force me to break out the constitution on you

 

[karajay]

Originally posted by wamp
I faught with my parents when I was little and disagreed with everything they said or stood for. Should I have left the house???

I did

 

[reeferdude]

Originally posted by Flamewrasse03
If you don't appreciate this country for what it is and what it has given you I say get the hell out

I have to say something about this one also. If we would have never have gone to war with Iraq would our freedom ever have been threatened? The short answer is no (yes I realize that they would be about the time that they started importing or creating ICBMs) so I don't see how me disagreeing with the war makes me unamerican and I also don't see how it is patriotic to go thousands of miles and overthrow a dictator (I think the troops are patriots but not their leadership.)
wamp: just FYI more than half of the country voted for Gore, he won the popular vote
tru conch: keep your head down and remember, those russian peices of crap arent real accurate in semi auto and horrible in full auto! Good Luck and God Speed!

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by jferrier Our country is where it is today because it is strong and proud and because its troops are brave and committed.

And because the citizens not only have the right but they have a DUTY to question their government and its actions!!
quote:

[hr]
If you don't appreciate this country for what it is and what it has given you I say get the hell out

[hr]

I think often times people see questioning the leadership as not being aware of the freedoms provided. Here is something to think about - if you whole-heartedly support the war and what the US is doing then please enlist, volunteer, organize blood drives, write to service men/women overseas. Just know that many of us who question the government and leadership that got us into this mess also have served time in the military(not me personally - but several close family members), volunteer @ veterans events, give blood and/or write to our service men and women overseas.
Please do not confuse being a zealot for being a patriot.

 

[lurch694u]

If you don't appreciate this country for what it is and what it has given you I say get the hell out
Great!!! Will you buy me a plane ticket to Fiji???

 

[wamp]

Great!!! Will you buy me a plane ticket to Fiji???
I want a seat beside him!!

 

[wrassecal]

Originally posted by Flamewrasse03
The sole purpose of a country's government is to benefit and protect it's civilians. If getting involved in other peoples business is going to prevent them from messing with yours, financially or physically why not. Every country is out for itself, it's just that we have more resources and an ability to do so much more because of the great people that make up this country. Not everything is free in life, things come with consequences. If you don't appreciate this country for what it is and what it has given you I say get the hell out

I'm reading all these one line quotes so playing devil's advocate here:
Ya'll are taking one portion of this post and quoting it out of context putting your spin on it.
Flamewrasse plainly states that governments are to benefit and protect it's citizens.
If that means getting involved in others to prevent them messing with ours, then why not.
We have more resources because of the great people that make up this country.
Some things have consequences.
If you can't appreciate our country get out.
There are many people in the US post 9/11 who believe that since our country was infliltrated in the ways it has been then we need to tighten up on who is here. We don't want to be a country who goes to work or the movie or disco and has to worry about whether or not we are going to get bombed or attacked. Some days I think I'd feel a lot better if I knew that people who didn't appreciate our country would just up and leave and go somewhere "better" for them. Flamewrasse gave his arguements for the last statement. At least we haven't started up interment camps.

 

[daniel411]

Actually we have as a country had interment canps. You probally have a better chance of being struck by lighting than being struck by a terrorist in the mid-west. Are you really staying home instead of going to the movies out of fear?
As for people who are unhappy withour current governments actions, that they should just go "someplace else". Hmm.. I wonder what our founding fathers would have thought of that? Maybe they should have just gone to someplace else instead of fighting for FREEDOM from oppression?

 

[daniel411]

It really is nice seeing everyone hear debateing this in such a good manner, overall. Without being willing/allowed to question, debate, protest... this country would be like any other. Historically, sadly, we as a country have done most of the horrible deeds we now are against. Just as most countries have. The only difference I see is that we've atleast somewhat had some checks and balances on our government.
Alot of those are being eroded now. For the name of security. Read the Federalist Papers, our country's founding fathers had some very different view points on this.
While I support our troops, hope they are well. I also hope that no one in Iraq is harmed who isn't trying to harm others.

 

[jferrier]

Originally posted by Chipper
It is not a question of being armed it is a question of how important is your conviction if it cost the lives of everyone that you love. What hard evidence are you referring to? Killing and torturing millions of his own people, invading and terrorizing the people of Kuwait, and killing and torturing Gulf War soldiers isn’t enough evidence for you? The point is that he is not only a threat to his own people, but to the world and of course that means the U.S. What good could come from Saddam remaining in power? Again I respect your opinion and I am not trying to argue I just thought I would share my perspective on this issue.
Chipper,
Where is your hard evidence? Why do you believe he killed "Millions"? I can't believe that millions of people would let him kill and torture their families and not try and do something about it. Well I can speak only for myself, but if I had the weapons, and members of my family were being tortured and killed I would do everything I could to stop it. And as far as killing the people of Kuwait, and correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Iraq in a bloody battle (w/ US backing Iraq) w/ Iran at the time in the North and trying to deal w/ a Kuwaiti uprising in the South at the same time. I thought the Kurds that were gased were in the middle of that northern war zone as well and possibly were gassed by Iran (the largest sponsor of terrorism according to US Government websites)
And what about the story during Bush number one's reign of the Iraqi Soldiers that took Kuwaiti babies out of their incubators and threw them to the floor. Apparently it was a fabrication by a Kuwaiti hired and US funded pr firm to hype the American public into war. What about the false documents saying Iraq tried to buy Uranium from Africa?
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cohen1.html
What about Halliburton/ Cheney
The Carlyle Group (Bush Sr. partner company)
Both companies benefit from war and defense.
As I have said Saddam is no angel I'm sure, but I hear him compared to Hitler and I just haven't seen the evidence. Maybe I have been asleep but I have seen pictures and videos of the Jews in Germany, but have never seen footage of Iraq in this way. I'm not saying Saddam hasn't done these things, but please someone direct me to a website where I can see it for myself.

 

[wrassecal]

Originally posted by Daniel411
Actually we have as a country had interment canps. You probally have a better chance of being struck by lighting than being struck by a terrorist in the mid-west. Are you really staying home instead of going to the movies out of fear?
As for people who are unhappy withour current governments actions, that they should just go "someplace else". Hmm.. I wonder what our founding fathers would have thought of that? Maybe they should have just gone to someplace else instead of fighting for FREEDOM from oppression?
Nope, I'm heading for Southern California to spend Christmas in Laguna with my step-son (who is heading to Iraq in Feb) and my son and their families:joy: Then I'm going up to Irvine and go to my favorite surround sound stadium movie theatre and see something thrilling and loud with my neice. Then out partying on New Year's in LA with my brother and his wife. Rose Bowl on the first, then back to Oklahoma by way of Flagstaff and Grand Canyon arriving just in time to watch OU kick LSU's butt in the Sugar Bowl.
P.S. I know we had interment camps, that is what I was referring to.
P.S.S. Love the Federalist papers,which many use to argue the point of view that our constitution is organic in nature.

:jumping: :happy: :happy: :cheer:

 

[daniel411]

Originally posted by Wrassecal
Nope, I'm heading for Southern California to spend Christmas in Laguna with my step-son (who is heading to Iraq in Feb) and my son and their families:joy: Then I'm going up to Irvine and go to my favorite surround sound stadium movie theatre and see something thrilling and loud with my neice. Then out partying on New Year's in LA with my brother and his wife. Rose Bowl on the first, then back to Oklahoma by way of Flagstaff and Grand Canyon arriving just in time to watch OU kick LSU's butt in the Sugar Bowl.
Wow, thats a great way to celebrate the holidays and new year. I hope you have a wonderful time. Best wishes for your step-son.

 

[sammystingray]

No matter how crooked the government here is.....I am far from rich, and I complain all the time about the tax dollars and where they go, but I am sitting here on my computer with high speed internet, a nice Christmas tree beside me, a reef tank I enjoy, no dead bodies scattered all around, and I have no fear that I will be attacked tonight......our government has therefore provided me with a safe place to try my best at a happy life. Can't beat that. I'm not really debating anything here, it just hit me how badly people in other countries would love to be in my shoes...I am warm and I feel safe.
Why do you guys think America got so much more powerful than other countries? I'm curious as to your thoughts why?

 

[wrassecal]

Daniel, thanks!
Sammy - I think we got this way because our society is made up of of a government and people who get to do what we are doing right now.

 

[daniel411]

I'm going to say that as a country we've been blessed with pretty much an entire continent to exploit (not meant in a negative way).
Oceans protecting us on two sides, friendly neighbors on the other two.
A legal system which has encouraged enterprise, stability, and raising capital/investments. Which has also brought in a large share of the investment capital the entire world has to offer.
As Wrassecal put it, allowed to do what we're doing now.
Also we import some of the best and brightest people from around the world. (Which really isn't a good thing, but thats another debate)
I agree Sammy. I might complaing that taxes and 401k take half my paycheck, but at 23.. I'll just say I have alot of toys and am doing well. I will forever complain about auto/motorcycle insurance though!!!!! Darn them!!!! Atleast until I'm 25, HOPEFULLY!

 

[karajay]

Originally posted by sammystingray
Why do you guys think America got so much more powerful than other countries? I'm curious as to your thoughts why?
Because we are free, because we can, and though many have tried, no one has managed to prove us wrong.