Please don't vote for McCain

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2473107
Okay.... he supported palenstinian bombers by giving to their family... I wonder how many others do this? He's not the only one... but the admin's attempt to explain this was to give the impression he supported al Qaeda... I think terrorism is terrorism, but there is a difference. Terrorism in Israel has been a very frequent occuring theme....
Iraq was openly supporting some terrorists. They were known to have been in contact with members of Al Qaeda including Osama his own bad self. After the invasion allowed us access to the country the 9-11 commission investigation couldn't rule out Iraq having a operational relationship with Al Qaeda with 100% accuracy. They said the known contacts between the two "Didn't appear to have resulted in a collobrative relationship" Not a very affirmative statement. As far as "The administration giving the impression of ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda" read this.
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/clintvon.htm
From the December 29, 2003 / January 5, 2004 issue: Connecting the dots in 1998, but not in 2003.
by Stephen F. Hayes
12/29/2003, Volume 009, Issue 16
"ARE AL QAEDA'S links to Saddam Hussein's Iraq just a fantasy of the Bush administration? Hardly. The Clinton administration also warned the American public about those ties and defended its response to al Qaeda terror by citing an Iraqi connection.
For nearly two years, starting in 1996, the CIA monitored the al Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Khartoum, Sudan. The plant was known to have deep connections to Sudan's Military Industrial Corporation, and the CIA had gathered intelligence on the budding relationship between Iraqi chemical weapons experts and the plant's top officials. The intelligence included information that several top chemical weapons specialists from Iraq had attended ceremonies to celebrate the plant's opening in 1996. And, more compelling, the National Security Agency had intercepted telephone calls between Iraqi scientists and the plant's general manager. "
"The al Shifa plant in Sudan was largely destroyed after being hit by six Tomahawk missiles. John McWethy, national security correspondent for ABC News, reported the story on August 25, 1998:
Before the pharmaceutical plant was reduced to rubble by American cruise missiles, the CIA was secretly gathering evidence that ended up putting the facility on America's target list. Intelligence sources say their agents clandestinely gathered soil samples outside the plant and found, quote, "strong evidence" of a chemical compound called EMPTA, a compound that has only one known purpose, to make VX nerve gas.
Then, the connection:
The U.S. had been suspicious for months, partly because of Osama bin Laden's financial ties, but also because of strong connections to Iraq. Sources say the U.S. had intercepted phone calls from the plant to a man in Iraq who runs that country's chemical weapons program.
The senior intelligence officials who briefed reporters laid out the collaboration. "We knew there were fuzzy ties between [bin Laden] and the plant but strong ties between him and Sudan and strong ties between the plant and Sudan and strong ties between the plant and Iraq." Although this official was careful not to oversell bin Laden's ties to the plant, other Clinton officials told reporters that the plant's general manager lived in a villa owned by bin Laden.
Several Clinton administration national security officials told THE WEEKLY STANDARD last week that they stand by the intelligence. "The bottom line for me is that the targeting was justified and appropriate," said Daniel Benjamin, director of counterterrorism on Clinton's National Security Council, in an emailed response to questions. "I would be surprised if any president--with the evidence of al Qaeda's intentions evident in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam and the intelligence on [chemical weapons] that was at hand from Sudan--would have made a different decision about bombing the plant.""
So is George W so much smarter than you Democrats that he could make up the intelligence reports to the point of triggering a missile attack from the Clinton Administration while he was still governor of Texas?
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2473136
Lets Compare:
Kosovo
According to a Serbian government report, from January 1 1998 to June 10 1999 the KLA killed 988 people and kidnapped 287; in the period from June 10 1999 to November 11 2001, when NATO took control in Kosovo, 847 were reported to have been killed and 1,154 kidnapped. This comprised both civilians and security force personnel: of those killed in the first period, 335 were civilians, 351 soldiers, 230 police and 72 were unidentified; by nationality, 87 of killed civilians were Serbs, 230 Albanians, and 18 of other nationalities.[42]
Within three weeks, over 500,000 Albanian refugees had returned home. By November 1999, according to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, 808,913 out of 848,100 had returned.
Africa
Estimated no lower than 200,000 and up to 500,000 in Darfur region of Sudan killed
Over 2 million refugess.
A new IRC survey has found that 5,400,000 people have died from war-related causes in Congo since 1998 – the world’s deadliest documented conflict since WWII.
Kenya- a democratic nation...
The death toll from more than five days of post-election violence in Kenya rose above 300, rights groups said Wednesday as slums burned and thousands were left homeless.
The violence was sparked by charges President Mwai Kibaki stole his way to re-election - even his elections chief was quoted Wednesday as saying he could not be sure who won. The political rift quickly took on a tribal element in what has been one of Africa's most stable democracies.
So? The life expectency in Madagascar is as good as ours in the USA.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2473317
So is George W so much smarter than you Democrats that he could make up the intelligence reports to the point of triggering a missile attack from the Clinton Administration while he was still governor of Texas?
I've previously proposed this thought, and have yet to get an answer. Other than a bush lied people died regurgitation.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2470140
No it doesn't... do a little more research... Clinton's plan mandates... Obama's plan retains the rights of people to choose which is why people like Clinton say it won't cover every american because they estimate that a least 1 milllion people will not want the coverage.
He constantly says its not that people won't buy insurance, but that they can't afford it. If you go back to the last debate he and Clinton had a long dialouge on this issue ... and he wanted her to say how she would implement her plan... and asked how would the mandate be inforced. - This is the key difference with their health care plans.
Sorry Journey - I know I am 100% right on this.

Just saw and Ad by Obama on TV and had to google it.
Rylan, please watch this ad. Pay special attention to the screenshot and what Obama says around 17 seconds into it, then tell me what you think... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0...-_n_86067.html
 

stdreb27

Active Member
I just heard some guy arguing that Obama was qualified to be prez, and even more qualified that bush. Because Obama graduated from Harvard and was a US senator...
And being a US senator is nothing to laugh at.
And what is really scary is that he votes.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2473729
I just heard some guy arguing that Obama was qualified to be prez, and even more qualified that bush. Because Obama graduated from Harvard and was a US senator...
And being a US senator is nothing to laugh at.
And what is really scary is that he votes.
Ya. people tend to forget the size of the Texas economy and the experience gained from being a Texas Governor. Not to mention the foreign relations President Bush established as a Governor.
 

reefraff

Active Member
But Boba lived in Indonisia when he was 10. That makes him much more experienced in foriegn relations than a simple governor of a state that borders another country

Actually Bush lied. Texas doesn't really border Mexico
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2473859
But Boba lived in Indonisia when he was 10. That makes him much more experienced in foriegn relations than a simple governor of a state that borders another country

Actually Bush lied. Texas doesn't really border Mexico

In my mind this is the cookie cutter lib, thinks he is smart, he was well spoken, till you listened to what he said. I just wish people would be able to recognise spin when they are seeing it.
Never mind w bush ran, quite well, texas. Never mind his undergrad from Yale and his MBA from Harvard.
An Undergrad from Harvard, and year and a half in the senate before jumping on the campain trail really tops that. As far as experience.

This reminds me of my lib english prof my freshman year at a jr college. She spend a whole day ragging on how stupid Bush was. So when it came time to write a position paper, the next class. I wrote a paper ragging on people making fun of W Bush for being stupid. And pointed out he went to a school most of us could only dream of getting into. Needless to say I never made another good grade in that class. And had to protest my grades to pass the class.
 

scubadoo

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2470140
No it doesn't... do a little more research... Clinton's plan mandates... Obama's plan retains the rights of people to choose which is why people like Clinton say it won't cover every american because they estimate that a least 1 milllion people will not want the coverage.
He constantly says its not that people won't buy insurance, but that they can't afford it. If you go back to the last debate he and Clinton had a long dialouge on this issue ... and he wanted her to say how she would implement her plan... and asked how would the mandate be inforced. - This is the key difference with their health care plans.
Sorry Journey - I know I am 100% right on this.
You need to read his plan as well. As I have stated in a previous thread....if his plan allows you to opt out, guarantees access with no pre-existing clauses....you simply opt out until such time you are sick, have a family or get older. Then you opt in use the coverage.
His plan on paper is not workable as I have pointed out. It only works if it is a mandate...and it will be.
Reading his plan as is......The smart folks will simply work the system...allowing all those foolish enough to sign up for Obama Insurance to fund the program. The rest of us will opt in when we get sick as we are guaranteed access, rates, and no pre-exisiting condition exclusions.
I mentioned funding...that's right...estimates are it will cost one trillion for Obama Inusrance.
 

scubadoo

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2472854
I agree with this, which is why I have a hard time believing Saddam supported terrorist organizations.
SADDAM HUSSEIN'S REGIME PROVIDED FINANCIAL support to Abu Sayyaf, the al Qaeda-linked jihadist group founded by Osama bin Laden's brother-in-law in the Philippines in the late 1990s, according to documents captured in postwar Iraq. An eight-page fax dated June 6, 2001, and sent from the Iraqi ambassador in Manila to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Baghdad, provides an update on Abu Sayyaf kidnappings and indicates that the Iraqi regime was providing the group with money to purchase weapons. The Iraqi regime suspended its support--temporarily, it seems--after high-profile kidnappings, including of Americans, focused international attention on the terrorist group.
The fax comes from the vast collection of documents recovered in postwar Afghanistan and Iraq.
 

scubadoo

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2473107
Okay.... he supported palenstinian bombers by giving to their family... I wonder how many others do this? He's not the only one... but the admin's attempt to explain this was to give the impression he supported al Qaeda... I think terrorism is terrorism, but there is a difference. Terrorism in Israel has been a very frequent occuring theme....
Compiled by Deroy Murdock, a Senior Fellow with the Atlas Economic Research Foundation in Fairfax, Virginia and columnist with the Scripps Howard News Service, the report details Saddam's support for:
* Abdul Rahman Yasin, who was indicted for mixing the chemicals for the bomb used in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six New Yorkers and injured over one thousand. Yasin fled to Baghdad after the attack, where he was given sanctuary and lived for years afterward.
* Khala Khadar al-Salahat, a top Palestinian deputy to Abu Nidal, who reportedly furnished Libyan agents with the Semtex explosive used to blow up Pan Am Flight 103 in December 1988. The attack killed all 259 passengers, including 189 Americans. Al-Salahat was in Baghdad last April when he was taken into custody by U.S. Marines.
* Abu Nidal, whose terror organization is credited with dozens of attacks that killed over 400 people, including 10 Americans, and wounding 788 more. Nidal lived in Baghdad from 1999 till August 2002, when he was found shot to death in his state supplied home.
* Abu Abbas, who masterminded the 1985 hijacking of the Achille Lauro cruise ship during which wheelchair-bound American Leon Klinghoffer was pushed over the side to his death. U.S. troops captured Abbas in Baghdad last April 14. He died in U.S. custody last week.
* Abu Musab al Zarqawi, who ran an Ansar al-Islam terrorist training camp in northern Iraq and reportedly arranged the October 2002 assassination of U.S. diplomat Lawrence Foley in Jordan. Al Zarqawi is still at large.
* Ramzi Yousef, who entered the U.S. on an Iraqi passport and who was the architect of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing as well as Operation Bojinka - a foiled plot to explode 12 U.S. airliners over the Pacific. Bojinka was later adopted by Yousef's cousin Khalid Shaikh Mohammed as the blueprint for the Sept. 11 attacks.
Arrested in Pakistan in 1995, Yousef is currently serving a triple life sentence in Colorado's Supermax federal lock-up.
* Mahmoud Besharat, the Palestinian businessman who traveled to Baghdad in March 2002 to collect funding for the Palestinian Intifada from Saddam. Besharat and others disbursed the funds in payments of $10,000 to $25,000 to West Bank families of terrorists who died trying to kill Israelis.
After Saddam announced his Intifada reward plan, 28 Palestinian homicide bombers killed 211 Israelis in attacks that also killed 12 Americans. A total of 1,209 people were injured.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Scuba, what is the point. Rylan has been shown numerous sources about this. we have shown him NUMEROUS reasons for Iraq and asked him to name one other country with even 80% of the reasons for the war and he has failed to do that. He just keeps pointing at the other countries who have terrorist cells. he deflects yet doesn't defend his stance against our points. he changes the subject or points at another country with one or two similar things....never more. I am done with him. He can vote for his golden boy Obama. I am done trying to show him things.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2474387
Scuba, what is the point. Rylan has been shown numerous sources about this. we have shown him NUMEROUS reasons for Iraq and asked him to name one other country with even 80% of the reasons for the war and he has failed to do that. He just keeps pointing at the other countries who have terrorist cells. he deflects yet doesn't defend his stance against our points. he changes the subject or points at another country with one or two similar things....never more. I am done with him. He can vote for his golden boy Obama. I am done trying to show him things.
In the hopes we can break thru brainwashing.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2472959
Less than 200 people have died in Africa in the last 10 years. Africa is relatively peaceful. The only reason people want us to go there is because they want to occupy more countries and steal their resources.

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2474387
Scuba, what is the point. Rylan has been shown numerous sources about this. we have shown him NUMEROUS reasons for Iraq and asked him to name one other country with even 80% of the reasons for the war and he has failed to do that. He just keeps pointing at the other countries who have terrorist cells. he deflects yet doesn't defend his stance against our points. he changes the subject or points at another country with one or two similar things....never more. I am done with him. He can vote for his golden boy Obama. I am done trying to show him things.

Originally Posted by stdreb27

http:///forum/post/2474435
In the hopes we can break thru brainwashing.
I tried getting through to him another way. I posted the above completely false, and glaringly made up, statement and just threw it out there. I was trying to show him, and others, how important it is to post only facts that you can back up.
(He barely blinked, which I find interesting.... but that's a topic for another thread.)
Another poster asked me why I bother. For me, it's because I see a real evil emerging in our Nation. There is a real movement in our country to disguise the truth, re-write our history, and take our country down a road too many great nations have gone before (where they faded into obscurity).
We may never get through to the posters who debate here, but I'm not about to let misinformation suck anyone else into the abyss. This forum will not become a haven for deceptive spin. Hopefully others who read these threads will learn from the debate. The more facts we have on our side, and the more we can disprove their "facts", hopefully the more people will think twice when they go into a voting booth.
Oh, and it's fun
I love spending, on average, 30 seconds to disprove a liberal talking point with a single link.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2473136
Lets Compare:
Kosovo
According to a Serbian government report, from January 1 1998 to June 10 1999 the KLA killed 988 people and kidnapped 287; in the period from June 10 1999 to November 11 2001, when NATO took control in Kosovo, 847 were reported to have been killed and 1,154 kidnapped. This comprised both civilians and security force personnel: of those killed in the first period, 335 were civilians, 351 soldiers, 230 police and 72 were unidentified; by nationality, 87 of killed civilians were Serbs, 230 Albanians, and 18 of other nationalities.[42]
Within three weeks, over 500,000 Albanian refugees had returned home. By November 1999, according to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, 808,913 out of 848,100 had returned.
Africa
Estimated no lower than 200,000 and up to 500,000 in Darfur region of Sudan killed
Over 2 million refugess.
....
The statement I posted about 200 deaths in Africa is totally false Rylan. I made it up and posted it only as an example of how important it is to post facts, that you have substantiated, and that you can back up, when having a discussion like this.
(I've never been to Africa, but in my previous job I did projects with groups like World Vision to teach my students about the needs of Africa. We raised thousands of dollars every year for relief aid and 6 of my students went on mission trips to Africa to work on relief oreiented projects. A couple of them still travel to Africa every summer.)
 

scubadoo

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2474387
Scuba, what is the point. Rylan has been shown numerous sources about this. we have shown him NUMEROUS reasons for Iraq and asked him to name one other country with even 80% of the reasons for the war and he has failed to do that. He just keeps pointing at the other countries who have terrorist cells. he deflects yet doesn't defend his stance against our points. he changes the subject or points at another country with one or two similar things....never more. I am done with him. He can vote for his golden boy Obama. I am done trying to show him things.
Many folks come here and may or may not take an interest in the subject matter. If so, perhpas one may actually consider these views/facts.
Attempts to rewrite history in order to bolster some political agenda will not go unchallenged.
I for one, will not allow politcal illiteracy to rule the day. Those that want to follow the Mr Bojangles universal healthcare change/hope mantra without thinking are free to do so. However, if I see it...I'll chime in..and those that read my response are free to ignore it.
 
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