Plenum or Insanity?

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by Scopus Tang
http:///forum/post/2576947

Wondered how easy it was going to be to get that in the cabinet. Decided against the CC or in addition to?
no I am still spliting mud on mine CC and sand on yours, and box has to go in empty and with out plumbing

 

[scopus tang]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2576950
Actually I was thinking of elbowing the pvc as it enters the refug and the pvc with the holes would be perpendicular to the substraight, but thinking about it that may just give me surface skimming, S--T
Based on location of influent and exfluent holes, the water should circulate the entire length of the fuge and back before exiting the fuge to the sump, so perpendicular should also be good. I was just thinking of more of a diffused rolling motion with my sketch.

 

[florida joe]

I may use crazy glue egg crate and screen for a divider which means I would have to stop flow and take deep water samples quickly to compare water parameters of each side. I don’t know how that would work out

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by Scopus Tang
http:///forum/post/2576961
Based on location of influent and exfluent holes, the water should circulate the entire length of the fuge and back before exiting the fuge to the sump, so perpendicular should also be good. I was just thinking of more of a diffused rolling motion with my sketch.
Actually I was at a seminar and there was a discussion on the rolling effect of water on bio filtration I may go your way. Have to go pal will be on to night

 

[scopus tang]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2576962
I may use crazy glue egg crate and screen for a divider which means I would have to stop flow and take deep water samples quickly to compare water parameters of each side. I don’t know how that would work out
Crimeny you type fast! Ok, got you. I think that on the bottom portion, seperating DSB from shallow mud, you are going to have to have something solid (like acrylic). Otherwise O2 from mud side, enters bottom portion of DSB. Eggcrate above acrylic would work as divider, assume you are considering screen to prevent algae spreading to DSB

?

 

[scopus tang]

LOL. Ok, catch you later tonight!

 

[reefkprz]

this is probably the most fun I have had reading through a thread in a while. I didnt want to jump in on it because I wanted to see what paths you guys would end up running. Lots of great information and theories guys. great brainstorming.

 

[scopus tang]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ
http:///forum/post/2576988
this is probably the most fun I have had reading through a thread in a while. I didnt want to jump in on it because I wanted to see what paths you guys would end up running. Lots of great information and theories guys. great brainstorming.

Well thank you reefkprZ, if you do see somethings that would cause errors however, please feel free to point them out. I really don't want to suggest/do anything that would cause potential damage to Joe's very nice long term reef!

 

[reefkprz]

about the only thing I saw that may be problemathical is using rooted algaes in the mud side will make harvesting near impossible with out constantly replacing the mud (read as expensive) and if you didnt constantly harvest the rooted algaes you'll end up root locking your surface area restricting flow and nutrient entrance to the lower levels, and root lock can lead really quick to sexual reproduction in rooted macros (like any caulerpa and a few others) which could precipitate a crash. thats about the only glaring thing I can recall off hand with out rereading (lost track went shopping with the fiancee and I hate shopping).

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by Scopus Tang
http:///forum/post/2576972
Crimeny you type fast! Ok, got you. I think that on the bottom portion, seperating DSB from shallow mud, you are going to have to have something solid (like acrylic). Otherwise O2 from mud side, enters bottom portion of DSB. Eggcrate above acrylic would work as divider, assume you are considering screen to prevent algae spreading to DSB

?
Randy when I come up with a hard number for the DSB I will cut a peace of acrylic or plastic and glue in the divider, seeing the height of the refug in real life makes me think I can go with a real nice deep bed those ant farms come to mind

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ
http:///forum/post/2576988
this is probably the most fun I have had reading through a thread in a while. I didnt want to jump in on it because I wanted to see what paths you guys would end up running. Lots of great information and theories guys. great brainstorming.

Fragging feel free to jump right in when I started this project it was just to get some input into plenums. Randy joined and the thread took on a life of its own. Its now our project but two and a half minds are better then Randy’s one and my one half

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ
http:///forum/post/2577134
about the only thing I saw that may be problemathical is using rooted algaes in the mud side will make harvesting near impossible with out constantly replacing the mud (read as expensive) and if you didnt constantly harvest the rooted algaes you'll end up root locking your surface area restricting flow and nutrient entrance to the lower levels, and root lock can lead really quick to sexual reproduction in rooted macros (like any caulerpa and a few others) which could precipitate a crash. thats about the only glaring thing I can recall off hand with out rereading (lost track went shopping with the fiancee and I hate shopping).
Never really thought about the root system impacting the mud. Was just thinking about harvesting the Caulerpa for nutrient export. But as you point out the root system will go unchecked as the caulerpa grows. Given the limited access to the refug I may have to rethink the method of harvesting. Or the use of rooting algae at all

 

[baloo6969]

guy's, i appreciate your attention to my previous posts. I must say...i WANTED to use the mud originally...i have YET to see anyone using mud. for initial plenum setup.
However, i'm always one to see how scientifically it would be beneficial...both being a "devils advocate" and being a NUT!!!
If i were you(and had more money than god), i would try setting up a "mud" sump with plenum/DSB, and a "mud" sump with a DSB....and if $ permits the same with and without sand/CC...this experimenting would take a VERY long time and everyone under the sun would have a better opinion...
Honestly, stay away from the mud...let the company's with the $ and recourses to do such a test.
Stick with the Plum/CC/Sand/sand/sand setup....

 

[scopus tang]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ
http:///forum/post/2577134
about the only thing I saw that may be problemathical is using rooted algaes in the mud side will make harvesting near impossible with out constantly replacing the mud (read as expensive) and if you didnt constantly harvest the rooted algaes you'll end up root locking your surface area restricting flow and nutrient entrance to the lower levels, and root lock can lead really quick to sexual reproduction in rooted macros (like any caulerpa and a few others) which could precipitate a crash. thats about the only glaring thing I can recall off hand with out rereading (lost track went shopping with the fiancee and I hate shopping).
Tis indeed a good point and one we hadn't considered. One could harvest, dry and then reinvest the dried mud, but that would require more work and perhaps precipitate a nasty smell as well. It would also likely result in some suspension of mud in the water column, which we definitely don't want. If we eliminate the rooted algae, do we then eliminate the benefit of the mudbed? Questions, questions. Top that off with limited access for algae harvesting from the bottom of the fuge, and the quandry deepens.

 

[baloo6969]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2576380
Thanks for the info and for joining our discussion. I will digest your info and comment on it latter but I have a question for now. It looks like you are using a recirculating skimmer, how do you like it also it seems your influent and effluent water to and from your skimmer is coming from the same place is that so?
YES! it is, an obvious problem, BUT i also have a PRIZM PRO Deluxe, hanging on the back that does an amazing job...(hence the reason for the 2 sloper jugs)
The pic is dated, i have a ATO setup, that keeps the water level constant on the left side. This is where the water from the skimmer in the pic is pulled from...then goes back to the right side to pass over the multiple stack of filtration(carbon, phoszorb, chemipure)

 

[scopus tang]

Originally Posted by baloo6969
http:///forum/post/2577462
If i were you(and had more money than god), i would try setting up a "mud" sump with plenum/DSB, and a "mud" sump with a DSB....and if $ permits the same with and without sand/CC...this experimenting would take a VERY long time and everyone under the sun would have a better opinion...
Don't we all wish we had that kind of money? Then we wouldn't have to sit around discussing these things, we could just build them and see. I'm still wondering about the inclusion of mud as the final layer on the "CC plenum set-up. If we included a second screen as you suggest that would prevent burrowing, but may increase the likelyhood of aerobic respiration in the midlayers which would not have access to oxygen, thus increasing the likelyhood of hydrogen sulfide gas. If we eliminate the rooted algae is there benefit to retaining the mud?

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by baloo6969
http:///forum/post/2577462
guy's, i appreciate your attention to my previous posts. I must say...i WANTED to use the mud originally...i have YET to see anyone using mud. for initial plenum setup.
However, i'm always one to see how scientifically it would be beneficial...both being a "devils advocate" and being a NUT!!!
If i were you(and had more money than god), i would try setting up a "mud" sump with plenum/DSB, and a "mud" sump with a DSB....and if $ permits the same with and without sand/CC...this experimenting would take a VERY long time and everyone under the sun would have a better opinion...
Honestly, stay away from the mud...let the company's with the $ and recourses to do such a test.
Stick with the Plum/CC/Sand/sand/sand setup....
Actually the mud refug I am attempting is patterned after Leng Sy’s Ecosystem aquarium method and Dr Adeys use of mud in the refugium. It has in fact been in use as a substrate for some time. I believe Adeys mud refug system came to into prominence in 1983 but the use of mud in algae filters has been practiced in the aquarium hobby for at least 40 years.The use of mud was predicted on the fact that it its more contusive to growth when using rooting algae. That being said I am partitioning off my refug at the center to go with mud on one side and CC/Sand on the other to do our own poor mans study as well as just getting a viable productive refugium

 

[florida joe]

Boys and girls as we move into the production phase of this project its time for those of you with ideas, opinions, recommendations, or just questions to step up. Randy and I may have a slight case of tunnel vision as evident by Fragging Freaks very real concern over root impactment in the mud part of the refugium. As an added incentive the more time I spend on this thread the less time I have to be rude, demeaning, condescending and just out right dumb

 

[scopus tang]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2577609
Boys and girls as we move into the production phase of this project its time for those of you with ideas, opinions, recommendations, or just questions to step up. Randy and I may have a slight case of tunnel vision as evident by Fragging Freaks very real concern over root impactment in the mud part of the refugium. As an added incentive the more time I spend on this thread the less time I have to be rude, demeaning, condescending and just out right dumb

^ +1; as Joe said, the more time we spend here, the less we have to be elsewhere. With 470 some views we know many of you are reading; please give us your input.

 

[candycane]

It makes me wonder about forced motion under the plenum, just enough to keep water movement going to force oxygen up and not down maybe, who knows. Something like those long plastic magnetic strips on all four sides of the plenum so that they are placed in a certain way where they are all pushing against eachother. I would think this would get the water to move and create a more favorable enviroment. Something like 12 GPH,

. Who knows..........may work or may not.