Republican Candidates
- Thread starter stdreb27
- Start date
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
For clarification purposes... I mean I don't see any viable Iraqi leader that could maintain control and avoid assination
Mushareff in Pakistan has survived numerous attempts on his life.
Saying Democracy can't survive because the leaders will be killed is exactly the kind of fear tactics the terrorists try to use. Again, Afghanistan is a great example. Look at the Kurdish region of Iraq as well...
Democracy can survive difficult times. Several Parlimentary leaders of Iraq have been killed, yet they still meet.
For clarification purposes... I mean I don't see any viable Iraqi leader that could maintain control and avoid assination
Mushareff in Pakistan has survived numerous attempts on his life.
Saying Democracy can't survive because the leaders will be killed is exactly the kind of fear tactics the terrorists try to use. Again, Afghanistan is a great example. Look at the Kurdish region of Iraq as well...
Democracy can survive difficult times. Several Parlimentary leaders of Iraq have been killed, yet they still meet.
rylan1
Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Well at least we kind of stayed on topic...
First off, Iraq. We did not go over the heads of the UN. Read the plethora of UN Resolutions leading up to our removing Saddam. For instance, Resolution 1441 says, in part: "... in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations"
You say the UN did nothing in Iraq because we went over their heads. Let me ask, then, WHAT THE HECK HAS STOPPED THEM IN AFRICA? Are we mysteriously going over their heads there too?
This is sheer hypocrisy. You think we should have waited on Iraq for the UN, but we should go over the UN's head in Africa.... Rylan, Africa is a humanitarian crisis.... Iraq was a military threat. BIG difference. Our soldiers are for fighting, not passing out rice.
We've already discussed Africa. You fail to address any of the actual issues there.
*Clinton pulled us out
*Civil War
*Children soldiers that our military would be forced to slaughter....
There already is Democracy in Iraq... TheotherIraq.org is a good example. They've aparently made more progress towards Democracy in 5 years in Iraq than the Kenyans have in 17. Is it safe to say Democracy in Kenya has failed based on the violence currently going on there?
I disagree. The Kenyans actually had elections and that is the cause of the fighting.
As far as Iraq.... they were not a threat at the time... you can say bad intel, or hindsight or whatever... they were not capable of attacking us. I think resources would be better used in Afganistan. The problem with that is that I bet we would loose more American lives than we have in Iraq due to the terrain. So I think Iraq was a convienent way to attract terrorists.... and the mission to remove WMD's was only a cover.
So what was Kosovo? A military threat or humanitarian crisis? And in regards to Africa... we are talking anot different regions. And a lot of this fighting is due to Islamist Extremists in Africa. So it is another form of terror
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
I disagree. The Kenyans actually had elections and that is the cause of the fighting.
As far as Iraq.... they were not a threat at the time... you can say bad intel, or hindsight or whatever... they were not capable of attacking us. I think resources would be better used in Afganistan. The problem with that is that I bet we would loose more American lives than we have in Iraq due to the terrain. So I think Iraq was a convienent way to attract terrorists.... and the mission to remove WMD's was only a cover.
So what was Kosovo? A military threat or humanitarian crisis? And in regards to Africa... we are talking anot different regions. And a lot of this fighting is due to Islamist Extremists in Africa. So it is another form of terror
*Iraq has had multiple elections which has lead to fighting...
*Iraq DID attack us. Iraq fired, numerous times, on allied pilots in the No Fly Zone. They were stonewalling the Inspectors and they were supporting terrorist groups.
*Afghanistan is under NATO. If they need more troops there are plenty to send.
If you believe we would lose more troops in Afghanistan due to the terrain, and you believe WMDs were a cover used to go into Iraq to "attract terrorists", then why the heck would you be against that?????????
Kosovo was a NATO Operation.
I disagree. The Kenyans actually had elections and that is the cause of the fighting.
As far as Iraq.... they were not a threat at the time... you can say bad intel, or hindsight or whatever... they were not capable of attacking us. I think resources would be better used in Afganistan. The problem with that is that I bet we would loose more American lives than we have in Iraq due to the terrain. So I think Iraq was a convienent way to attract terrorists.... and the mission to remove WMD's was only a cover.
So what was Kosovo? A military threat or humanitarian crisis? And in regards to Africa... we are talking anot different regions. And a lot of this fighting is due to Islamist Extremists in Africa. So it is another form of terror
*Iraq has had multiple elections which has lead to fighting...
*Iraq DID attack us. Iraq fired, numerous times, on allied pilots in the No Fly Zone. They were stonewalling the Inspectors and they were supporting terrorist groups.
*Afghanistan is under NATO. If they need more troops there are plenty to send.
If you believe we would lose more troops in Afghanistan due to the terrain, and you believe WMDs were a cover used to go into Iraq to "attract terrorists", then why the heck would you be against that?????????
Kosovo was a NATO Operation.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
No the policy is hypocritical... Over 5 million people have been killed in Darfur in the last 10 years. ... The reason why the UN has not done anything in Iraq is because we went over their heads to wage this war. We did not follow the rules or war. My point is that we say we want to spread democracy, end terrany, and ethinic cleansing... Case in point... you always want to bring up Saddam's mass killing of Kurds... I don't hate Bush. I just believe that his presidency has been a disaster. Frankly, you probably can't blame Bush for all of this because he is not the one making all these decisions.
As far as WMD's that "slam dunk" is really an "airball". By the way what happened to George Tenant? So did Saddam have WMD's are not? I think he may have gave the impression, but if he did it was to intimidate Iran. So the intelligence was wrong... and we went into a war w/o regrad of the consequenses or a long term plan.
And since you brought up Tenant... lets look at what happened to former Ambassador Joseph Wilson and his CIA wife... She was a covert operative in weapons of mass destruction and he investigated the "false" claim about Iraq buying uranium from S.Africa.. So do you see a pattern here... that makes a case for the whole thing being a lie?
First off
"So the intelligence was wrong... and we went into a war w/o regrad of the consequenses or a long term plan"
Now, you just conceeded the intelligence was wrong which means Bush didn't lie. Did your head explode? Have you been expelled from the I hate Bush club?
That's been my point all along. Start the debate from a position based on facts. The intelligence was wrong. Bush didn't lie about it. As far as the war planning and the decision to go into Iraq, those are legitimate issues for debate. It's going to be a long time before we can say whether the decision to invade was the right one. War planning was obviously flawed but before you get too exited about that has been the case in nearly every war this country has ever been involved in.
As far as the Africa/UN thing Iraq has nothing to do with it. Not being in Iraq takes away any excuse for the UN not to act in Africa. All the libs said once Iraq drifted into civil war yet they criticize the US for not stepping in. That should be a UN mission. Bush has been the only Western leader I have heard say a peep about it. Its obvious the UN wants nothing to do with the situation.
As for Joe Wilson it has been shown that he and his wife were liars
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Jul9.html
"Wilson's assertions -- both about what he found in Niger and what the Bush administration did with the information -- were undermined yesterday in a bipartisan Senate intelligence committee report.
The panel found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts. And contrary to Wilson's assertions and even the government's previous statements, the CIA did not tell the White House it had qualms about the reliability of the Africa intelligence that made its way into 16 fateful words in President Bush's January 2003 State of the Union address."
"The report also said Wilson provided misleading information to The Washington Post last June. He said then that he concluded the Niger intelligence was based on documents that had clearly been forged because "the dates were wrong and the names were wrong."
"Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have come to the conclusion that the 'dates were wrong and the names were wrong' when he had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names and dates were in the reports," the Senate panel said. Wilson told the panel he may have been confused and may have "misspoken" to reporters. The documents -- purported sales agreements between Niger and Iraq -- were not in U.S. hands until eight months after Wilson made his trip to Niger."
As far as outing Plame I have no sympathy for either one of them BUT, the identities of even former covert agents like Plame should be guarded. Even though Rove and Armitage didn't break the law in the way they brought up her name they both at a minimun should have had their security clearances seriously downgraded.
About the only factual thing Plame said in this whole even was that by having her identified even though she was no longer covert did possibly expose some she had worked with in the past. Basically had Wilson not wrote the editorial in which he lied about the facts about his Niger trip none of this would have ever happened.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...083101460.html
No the policy is hypocritical... Over 5 million people have been killed in Darfur in the last 10 years. ... The reason why the UN has not done anything in Iraq is because we went over their heads to wage this war. We did not follow the rules or war. My point is that we say we want to spread democracy, end terrany, and ethinic cleansing... Case in point... you always want to bring up Saddam's mass killing of Kurds... I don't hate Bush. I just believe that his presidency has been a disaster. Frankly, you probably can't blame Bush for all of this because he is not the one making all these decisions.
As far as WMD's that "slam dunk" is really an "airball". By the way what happened to George Tenant? So did Saddam have WMD's are not? I think he may have gave the impression, but if he did it was to intimidate Iran. So the intelligence was wrong... and we went into a war w/o regrad of the consequenses or a long term plan.
And since you brought up Tenant... lets look at what happened to former Ambassador Joseph Wilson and his CIA wife... She was a covert operative in weapons of mass destruction and he investigated the "false" claim about Iraq buying uranium from S.Africa.. So do you see a pattern here... that makes a case for the whole thing being a lie?
First off
"So the intelligence was wrong... and we went into a war w/o regrad of the consequenses or a long term plan"
Now, you just conceeded the intelligence was wrong which means Bush didn't lie. Did your head explode? Have you been expelled from the I hate Bush club?
As far as the Africa/UN thing Iraq has nothing to do with it. Not being in Iraq takes away any excuse for the UN not to act in Africa. All the libs said once Iraq drifted into civil war yet they criticize the US for not stepping in. That should be a UN mission. Bush has been the only Western leader I have heard say a peep about it. Its obvious the UN wants nothing to do with the situation.
As for Joe Wilson it has been shown that he and his wife were liars
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Jul9.html
"Wilson's assertions -- both about what he found in Niger and what the Bush administration did with the information -- were undermined yesterday in a bipartisan Senate intelligence committee report.
The panel found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts. And contrary to Wilson's assertions and even the government's previous statements, the CIA did not tell the White House it had qualms about the reliability of the Africa intelligence that made its way into 16 fateful words in President Bush's January 2003 State of the Union address."
"The report also said Wilson provided misleading information to The Washington Post last June. He said then that he concluded the Niger intelligence was based on documents that had clearly been forged because "the dates were wrong and the names were wrong."
"Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have come to the conclusion that the 'dates were wrong and the names were wrong' when he had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names and dates were in the reports," the Senate panel said. Wilson told the panel he may have been confused and may have "misspoken" to reporters. The documents -- purported sales agreements between Niger and Iraq -- were not in U.S. hands until eight months after Wilson made his trip to Niger."
As far as outing Plame I have no sympathy for either one of them BUT, the identities of even former covert agents like Plame should be guarded. Even though Rove and Armitage didn't break the law in the way they brought up her name they both at a minimun should have had their security clearances seriously downgraded.
About the only factual thing Plame said in this whole even was that by having her identified even though she was no longer covert did possibly expose some she had worked with in the past. Basically had Wilson not wrote the editorial in which he lied about the facts about his Niger trip none of this would have ever happened.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...083101460.html
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
I believe in country, but not the current admin... there is a clear difference..
As far as the UN... didn't they want us to wait? And there are international rules for war that we violated.
What's up with blackwater... do we hire mercenaries too?
So what international rules of war did Clinton violate when he bombed Iraq in 98
Gulf War I was ended under a cease fire, not a treaty or armistice (SP?) The first time Iraq fired on a plane in the no fly zone we had the right to resume the hostilities because they violated the cease fire. The first time Hans Blix complained about the weapons inspectors being obstructed the cease fire was violated and we had the right to resume hostilities. That is the grounds Clinton and Bush both used to take military action
I believe in country, but not the current admin... there is a clear difference..
As far as the UN... didn't they want us to wait? And there are international rules for war that we violated.
What's up with blackwater... do we hire mercenaries too?
So what international rules of war did Clinton violate when he bombed Iraq in 98
Gulf War I was ended under a cease fire, not a treaty or armistice (SP?) The first time Iraq fired on a plane in the no fly zone we had the right to resume the hostilities because they violated the cease fire. The first time Hans Blix complained about the weapons inspectors being obstructed the cease fire was violated and we had the right to resume hostilities. That is the grounds Clinton and Bush both used to take military action
stdreb27
Active Member
You know what is really screwed up. I'm fresh out of college, I have my first "real" job. Just starting out, worked my way through school and I worked 4 months to pay taxes. 33% of medicare, income, and social security. Not counting the 8.25% for everything I buy. Four *** months!
1journeyman
Active Member
just wait until you start paying for universal healthcare...
darthtang aw
Active Member
You know, if they give us universal healthcare, I am going to say
[hr]
it. Get myself fired. apply for welfare, section 8 housing, food stamps, wic, and get my healthcare and every other program available to care for me......why do we work in this country again?
[hr]
it. Get myself fired. apply for welfare, section 8 housing, food stamps, wic, and get my healthcare and every other program available to care for me......why do we work in this country again?
stdreb27
Active Member
Originally Posted by kjr_trig
From the early count in FLA, looks like we are about to have a 2 man race for the GOP side..
Rudi
Huck
Great, who do I want, the "Republican maverick" or the flip flopping business man romney. To bad ron paul is anti-war, and bit of a conspiracy theorist.
From the early count in FLA, looks like we are about to have a 2 man race for the GOP side..
Great, who do I want, the "Republican maverick" or the flip flopping business man romney. To bad ron paul is anti-war, and bit of a conspiracy theorist.
kjr_trig
Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
Great, who do I want, the "Republican maverick" or the flip flopping business man romney. To bad ron paul is anti-war, and bit of a conspiracy theorist.
Dosen't matter who you want...Its more about whom you don't want...As long as they have an Elephant next to their name they get my vote this year
Great, who do I want, the "Republican maverick" or the flip flopping business man romney. To bad ron paul is anti-war, and bit of a conspiracy theorist.
Dosen't matter who you want...Its more about whom you don't want...As long as they have an Elephant next to their name they get my vote this year
scubadoo
Active Member
It troubles me how people claim to support the country but not Bush. During a time of war, we should all be stading together...and send a messsage to the terrorists we are committed to defeating them.
If they want to continue with the mantra Bush lied..then give CLinton a pass that when he lied no one died , balh blah....okay that's your postion
Dems and liberals ....Go ahead and sign off on all the conspiracy theories..then turn back the pages of history and stop at LBJ Gulf of Tonkin
http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEB...ss20051201.htm
If they want to continue with the mantra Bush lied..then give CLinton a pass that when he lied no one died , balh blah....okay that's your postion
Dems and liberals ....Go ahead and sign off on all the conspiracy theories..then turn back the pages of history and stop at LBJ Gulf of Tonkin
http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEB...ss20051201.htm
scubadoo
Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
Sadaam even said there was no WMD's... Why are you all so gung-ho about these WMD's. We haven't found any.. and I've heard the arguement they were shipped across the border... or they are under the Tigris River or whatever... Fact is that this was premature at best... I aslo find the timing of the war very ironic. I can apprieciate your "love" for Bush, but you all act as if he can do no wrong and has been the best president since your other icon Reagan. We have no problems in this country... the
[hr]
crisis is not as bad as being reported, our economy is booming, medical care/coverage....nothing wrong with that. People just need to get off their lazy rears and work. Lets give $10's of Billions to Pakistan, but sit idlely to what is going on in Darfur, Congo, and Kenya. Lets wage a war in Iraq, but we will use far less resources going after Bin Laden...We will also make the world a little less stable...
So, if you are going to accept everything that Saddam states as "gospel"....he also stated he retained everybody so he could resume his weapons progam at a later time.
Even if I sign off on your mantra and various theories......How many lives were saved since we took him out before he had a chance to restart the programs?
Would you rather take him out before he restrated or after? ANy loss of life estimate on the restart scenario?
Bush has done no wrong? hardly.....
I for one, will challenge all the conspiracy theorists and left wing loon theories every time I see them.
This does not mean I agree with everything Bush has done 100%.
I prefer to support the president and troops during a time of war. Hopefully, this sends the correct message to the terrorists.
Sadaam even said there was no WMD's... Why are you all so gung-ho about these WMD's. We haven't found any.. and I've heard the arguement they were shipped across the border... or they are under the Tigris River or whatever... Fact is that this was premature at best... I aslo find the timing of the war very ironic. I can apprieciate your "love" for Bush, but you all act as if he can do no wrong and has been the best president since your other icon Reagan. We have no problems in this country... the
[hr]
crisis is not as bad as being reported, our economy is booming, medical care/coverage....nothing wrong with that. People just need to get off their lazy rears and work. Lets give $10's of Billions to Pakistan, but sit idlely to what is going on in Darfur, Congo, and Kenya. Lets wage a war in Iraq, but we will use far less resources going after Bin Laden...We will also make the world a little less stable...
So, if you are going to accept everything that Saddam states as "gospel"....he also stated he retained everybody so he could resume his weapons progam at a later time.
Even if I sign off on your mantra and various theories......How many lives were saved since we took him out before he had a chance to restart the programs?
Would you rather take him out before he restrated or after? ANy loss of life estimate on the restart scenario?
Bush has done no wrong? hardly.....
I for one, will challenge all the conspiracy theorists and left wing loon theories every time I see them.
This does not mean I agree with everything Bush has done 100%.
I prefer to support the president and troops during a time of war. Hopefully, this sends the correct message to the terrorists.
scubadoo
Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
People just need to get off their lazy rears and work. Lets give $10's of Billions to Pakistan, but sit idlely to what is going on in Darfur, Congo, and Kenya. Lets wage a war in Iraq, but we will use far less resources going after Bin Laden...We will also make the world a little less stable...
I have no problems discussing the regions you mention...but are you prepared to denounce CLitnon on this thread for sitting and doing nothing in Rwanda?
DId he LIE about what he knew and when?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...182431,00.html
People just need to get off their lazy rears and work. Lets give $10's of Billions to Pakistan, but sit idlely to what is going on in Darfur, Congo, and Kenya. Lets wage a war in Iraq, but we will use far less resources going after Bin Laden...We will also make the world a little less stable...
I have no problems discussing the regions you mention...but are you prepared to denounce CLitnon on this thread for sitting and doing nothing in Rwanda?
DId he LIE about what he knew and when?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...182431,00.html
scubadoo
Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
You know, if they give us universal healthcare, I am going to say
[hr]
it. Get myself fired. apply for welfare, section 8 housing, food stamps, wic, and get my healthcare and every other program available to care for me......why do we work in this country again?
The programs have all failed. Instead of helping folks through tough times as a 'safety net"...for many, it becomes a way of life.
These programs are not helping folks better themselves. I support HELPING those in need ...I just question why we continue on with the same failed programs and approach. Just becuse you throw money at a problem...does not mean it goes away.
In many ways, we trap these folks. I'm not certain what the answer is...but the same old approaches will yield the same results.
With all the money spent on "assistance"...how far have we come in solving the real problems? IMO...not too far down the road.
You know, if they give us universal healthcare, I am going to say
[hr]
it. Get myself fired. apply for welfare, section 8 housing, food stamps, wic, and get my healthcare and every other program available to care for me......why do we work in this country again?
The programs have all failed. Instead of helping folks through tough times as a 'safety net"...for many, it becomes a way of life.
These programs are not helping folks better themselves. I support HELPING those in need ...I just question why we continue on with the same failed programs and approach. Just becuse you throw money at a problem...does not mean it goes away.
In many ways, we trap these folks. I'm not certain what the answer is...but the same old approaches will yield the same results.
With all the money spent on "assistance"...how far have we come in solving the real problems? IMO...not too far down the road.