Right or Not ???

[bronco300]

Originally Posted by windmill
I don't care what anybody says or thinks.
That is a choice for a woman to make. There will always be certain conditions or exceptions or whatever for people to say "that's just not right" or "in that position, I'd have one too".
It sure as sh** doesn't matter what I think or what any other male thinks. We have no clue what all happens physcologically with a pregnant woman. We have no clue what would happen if she did or didn't have one. Only the woman can figure out what she wants and why. Once again:
THIS A DECISION FOR A WOMAN TO MAKE
Never should a man be allowed to have the final say.
if a man and women both engage in the action, why shouldnt a man have a say in his child's birth??

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by Tizzo
It's funny how many pro lifers change they mind what an unexpected pregnancy happens and their "man" left them.
great point. I knew a holier than thou bible thumper that was all about pro life. she changed her mind really quick when her heroin addict daughter got pregnant from her drug dealer.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by windmill
THIS A DECISION FOR A WOMAN TO MAKE
Never should a man be allowed to have the final say.
I don't agree that a man should never be allowed the final say. if a man gets a woman pregnant and does not want the child, but she insists on having it, I think the man should be able to go to court and be completely cleared of any financial responsibility coming from having a child that he does not want. I do think he should have to pay for the abortion though.
then I think these young boys that have 5 children by 5 different women by age 21 because they think it's a macho thing to do should have to pay out the side of their face.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by windmill
...THIS A DECISION FOR A WOMAN TO MAKE
Never should a man be allowed to have the final say.
Does a new mother have the right to throw a newborn in the dumpster?

 

[dcoyle11]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Clever slogan but neatly side steps the issue.
When does life begin? What's the difference in a fetus and a newborn?
I could as neatly say I'm Pro Choice: "Choose whatever form of birth control you want..."
It is interesting that a woman that wants her pregnancy calls her unborn child her baby yet the woman who wants to have an abortion calls her unborn baby a fetus. Who is right?
You know I am against abortion yet it will continue as long as people only think about them selves. That life has a plan and its Gods plan. The “choices” that are made will affect that person’s life for ever.

 

[dragonzim]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Clever slogan but neatly side steps the issue.
When does life begin? What's the difference in a fetus and a newborn?
I could as neatly say I'm Pro Choice: "Choose whatever form of birth control you want..."
I would say that life truly begins at whatever point it is that a healthy fetus can survive outside of its mother's body, without being hooked up to a machine to keep it alive. I have no idea when that point actually is, but I dont consider a 2 week old clump of cells attached to the uterine wall to be alive yet.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by DragonZim
I would say that life truly begins at whatever point it is that a healthy fetus can survive outside of its mother's body, without being hooked up to a machine to keep it alive. I have no idea when that point actually is, but I dont consider a 2 week old clump of cells attached to the uterine wall to be alive yet.
That's the direction I believe this argument needs to go.
When does life begin? That's a good start Dragon, but what is a baby is delivered prematurely and needs a respirator?

 

[ruaround]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Clever slogan but neatly side steps the issue.
When does life begin? What's the difference in a fetus and a newborn?
you keep asking this... so tell us when is it??? you obviously believe its at conception... there are others that dont...

 

[ruaround]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
When does life begin? That's a good start Dragon, but what is a baby is delivered prematurely and needs a respirator?
unfortunate, hooked up to everything that it needs to sustain life... so it cant sustain life outside the womb on its own...

 

[dcoyle11]

Science tell us that human life begins at the time of conception. From the moment fertilization takes place, the child's genetic makeup is already complete. Its gender has already been determined, along with its height and hair, eye and skin color. The only thing the embryo needs to become a fully-functioning being is the time to grow and develop.
More importantly, God reveals to us in His Word that not only does life begin at conception, but He knows who we are even before then (Jeremiah 1:5). King David said this about God's role in our conception: "For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb....Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them" (Psalm 139:13, 16).
Society continually seeks to devalue the lives of the unborn, creating its own definitions of humanity based on distorted views of morality. But the undeniable fact is that life begins at creation, and a human is created as soon as it is conceived. God is present at our creation; He is, in fact, our Creator. Our value as human beings created in His image are conceived even before we are.

 

[reefreak29]

Originally Posted by dcoyle11
Science tell us that human life begins at the time of conception. From the moment fertilization takes place, the child's genetic makeup is already complete. Its gender has already been determined, along with its height and hair, eye and skin color. The only thing the embryo needs to become a fully-functioning being is the time to grow and develop.
More importantly, God reveals to us in His Word that not only does life begin at conception, but He knows who we are even before then (Jeremiah 1:5). King David said this about God's role in our conception: "For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb....Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them" (Psalm 139:13, 16).
Society continually seeks to devalue the lives of the unborn, creating its own definitions of humanity based on distorted views of morality. But the undeniable fact is that life begins at creation, and a human is created as soon as it is conceived. God is present at our creation; He is, in fact, our Creator. Our value as human beings created in His image are conceived even before we are.
i wasnt going to post on this subject but

 

[tizzo]

Originally Posted by indydirk
Not to play "devil's advocate" here, but by using this arguement the mushrooms in my tank are not alive. (and yes, I know we're talking about HUMAN life)
Never said, not alive... Not a "baby".
Not my argument, but that's the logic behind pro choice that Journeyman said he couldn't figure out.

 

[dragonzim]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
That's the direction I believe this argument needs to go.
When does life begin? That's a good start Dragon, but what is a baby is delivered prematurely and needs a respirator?
You'll notice I used the term "healthy fetus" In general, a fetus that is delivered prematurely would not be considered healthy. I"m certainly not saying that we should go out and kill off babies that are born prematurely, but obviously there are many, many exceptions to be made. Either way, I do not believe that it is any person's right to tell a woman that she MUST, by law, have a baby that she either does not want or is incapable of caring for. On the same token, she should not be legally made to carry a fetus that she has no intention of raising as her own. I am all in favor of adoption, as long as the woman carrying the fetus has the choice to maintain her pregnancy and then willingly give the baby up after it is born. Again, I do NOT think that this is a decision that should be forced on her by some bible thumping politician.

 

[dragonzim]

Originally Posted by dcoyle11
Science tell us that human life begins at the time of conception. From the moment fertilization takes place, the child's genetic makeup is already complete. Its gender has already been determined, along with its height and hair, eye and skin color. The only thing the embryo needs to become a fully-functioning being is the time to grow and develop.
More importantly, God reveals to us in His Word that not only does life begin at conception, but He knows who we are even before then (Jeremiah 1:5). King David said this about God's role in our conception: "For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb....Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them" (Psalm 139:13, 16).
Society continually seeks to devalue the lives of the unborn, creating its own definitions of humanity based on distorted views of morality. But the undeniable fact is that life begins at creation, and a human is created as soon as it is conceived. God is present at our creation; He is, in fact, our Creator. Our value as human beings created in His image are conceived even before we are.

Of course, that entire argument is only valid if you actually believe that there is a singular, all powerful being out there, which I for one, do not.

 

[ruaround]

Originally Posted by DragonZim
Of course, that entire argument is only valid if you actually believe that there is a singular, all powerful being out there, which I for one, do not.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by ruaround
you keep asking this... so tell us when is it??? you obviously believe its at conception... there are others that dont...
I haven't said that...
I'm keeping my moral and religious beliefs out of the equation. I want, from a purely scientific point of view, the explanation of life.
Because here's the thing... obviously at some point a "fetus" becomes a human being. Where is that point? That must be decided before you can logically or ethically argue for abortion.
The Pro Choice movement avoids this obvious issue. The mantra of "Women's Rights" have drowned out all healthy discussion on the subject.
Either we establish when life begins or you say "I don't care when it begins.."

 

[tizzo]

Originally Posted by dcoyle11
It is interesting that a woman that wants her pregnancy calls her unborn child her baby yet the woman who wants to have an abortion calls her unborn baby a fetus. Who is right?
According to Webster's dictionary, the one who calls her baby a fetus, since "baby" means "newly born" child or animal.
A woman who calls her unborn a baby is anticipating.

 

[dcoyle11]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I haven't said that...
I'm keeping my moral and religious beliefs out of the equation. I want, from a purely scientific point of view, the explanation of life.
Because here's the thing... obviously at some point a "fetus" becomes a human being. Where is that point? That must be decided before you can logically or ethically argue for abortion.
The Pro Choice movement avoids this obvious issue. The mantra of "Women's Rights" have drowned out all healthy discussion on the subject.
Either we establish when life begins or you say "I don't care when it begins.."
with that said lets go back to the 1st part of my post
Science tell us that human life begins at the time of conception. From the moment fertilization takes place, the child's genetic makeup is already complete. Its gender has already been determined, along with its height and hair, eye and skin color. The only thing the embryo needs to become a fully-functioning being is the time to grow and develop.
can any one dispute this?

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by dcoyle11
But the undeniable fact is that life begins at creation, and a human is created as soon as it is conceived. God is present at our creation; He is, in fact, our Creator. Our value as human beings created in His image are conceived even before we are.

"undeniable fact"??? that's funny, there's nothing 'undeniable' about it, and there's nothing 'factual' about it. the bible verse you quoted does not even back your argument. that verse doesn't say life begins at conception, it seems to me that you are stretching it to mean whatever you want it to mean.
for me, it's not about when it can scientifically be categorized as life. it's more, when does an unresponsive clump of cells and mucus become an actual human being. like when hands, feet, fingers, toes form. when eyes form, maybe when they open. maybe when it is responsive to the doctor probing around. but not when it's a 1 or 2 month old clump. you don't agree, that's your opinion.
and if you want to put words and opinions in God's mouth, think about this......close to 50% of pregnancies end in miscarriage in the first 4 months. many times, the women miscarry and don't even realize they're pregnant. so really, God aborts far more pregnancies than doctors do.

 

[dcoyle11]

Originally Posted by Tizzo
According to Webster's dictionary, the one who calls her baby a fetus, since "baby" means "newly born" child or animal.
A woman who calls her unborn a baby is anticipating.

anticipating a baby or fetus?