Should the Federal Govt. Spend $1 Trillion Bailing Out US Financial Institutions?

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2767363
that's interesting.. question is how many people would be able to have the liquid cash available for something like this.... and how much of a hit would the banks be able to absorb.... it is clear that much the increase in housing value was due in large to speculation... and these values were overvalued... that is why loans are worth more than the resale value of the home..
I like what Buffet did... there are still responsible business and investment firms out there....I also like how they did not jump on that $700B buyout.
The banks that are already almost gone who cares. The fed purchased these securities at a discount, he is just saying instead of the fed, why not have it offered to the individual.
Yeah, they didn't jump at it, for opposite reasons, republicans don't like the fed's owning anything(well the good ones anyway), and dems wanted to get their grubby little hands in the cookie jar. Obama and pelosi saying they want oversight they are ticked they weren't in the loop writing the dang thing...
What really hacks me off are the frivolous demands that don't address the problem at hand but are simply political games, and exactly why congress shouldn't have oversight because they aren't above playing political games with a non-partisan issue. Limit CEO pay and subsidize irresponsible home owners will do nothing to solve the issue and only exacerbate the problem.
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2767366
The banks that are already almost gone who cares. The fed purchased these securities at a discount, he is just saying instead of the fed, why not have it offered to the individual.
Yeah, they didn't jump at it, for opposite reasons, republicans don't like the fed's owning anything(well the good ones anyway), and dems wanted to get their grubby little hands in the cookie jar. Obama and pelosi saying they want oversight they are ticked they weren't in the loop writing the dang thing...
What really hacks me off are the frivolous demands that don't address the problem at hand but are simply political games, and exactly why congress shouldn't have oversight because they aren't above playing political games with a non-partisan issue. Limit CEO pay and subsidize irresponsible home owners will do nothing to solve the issue and only exacerbate the problem.
I think limiting CEO pay of companies involved in the buyout needs to be part of it if they decide to go forward... If you look at the pay that exiting CEO's made that were involved.... they were taking home $10-20-30 million in severance that was based on faulty or fraudlent loans. It reminds me of that movie... with Jim Carey and Allen Baldwin... ---- and Jane I think
 

bang guy

Moderator
Throwing good money after bad IMO.
I predict we'll spend a Trillion now and another Trillion in 6 months when the first Trillion fails to produce results. Then, we'll be 2 Trillion in the hole and it still won't work.
We don't produce anything anymore
We consume beyond our means
We expect the Government to bail us out
We are hosed....
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2767390
I think limiting CEO pay of companies involved in the buyout needs to be part of it if they decide to go forward... If you look at the pay that exiting CEO's made that were involved.... they were taking home $10-20-30 million in severance that was based on faulty or fraudlent loans. It reminds me of that movie... with Jim Carey and Allen Baldwin... ---- and Jane I think
If you want to limit ceo pay that is one thing, (wrong but whatever) however it does absolutely NOTHING as far as addressing these failing corporations. Which is my gripe to begin with. CEO pay isn't what made these companies fail.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2767395
We don't produce anything anymore
I don't remember the exact numbers but we produce quite a lot. Manufacturing just hasn't grown like other sectors of our economy. Dollar wise we still make more than we did in years past. The "problem" (depending on how you look at it) is that we are more efficient so it takes less to make much more.
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2767397
If you want to limit ceo pay that is one thing, (wrong but whatever) however it does absolutely NOTHING as far as addressing these failing corporations. Which is my gripe to begin with. CEO pay isn't what made these companies fail.
I agree.. but they were rewarded on bad behavior... there needs to be changes in the law... but 1st part of business is going to be the bailout..if it happens... a firm like AIG maybe split up... But I agree CEO pay is not the reason...but more of a common symptom of these buisnesses. The limit would only be for these busiesses involved in the bailout as far as I know
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2767395
Throwing good money after bad IMO.
I predict we'll spend a Trillion now and another Trillion in 6 months when the first Trillion fails to produce results. Then, we'll be 2 Trillion in the hole and it still won't work.
We don't produce anything anymore
We consume beyond our means
We expect the Government to bail us out
We are hosed....
what do you think about Ahmadinejad's comments?
 

acrylics

Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2767359
This whole idea assumes that the homeowner has access to money, which isn't that the mechanical base of the problem anyway, people defaulting on their loans?
I wonder if they'd lend money to do that?

And if you did, you wouldn't be the person that is in trouble in the first place.
I wonder if they did that, what it would do to home prices? You think they would drop since they basically just purchased a house at half of what they thought they did.
Only a small percentage are at serious risk of default, most others are not. There is probably 10% that are delinquent but they wouldn't buy taking anyone up on the offer anyway. If the gov't did the bailout, this would be a way of getting some of it off the books quickly.
My guess is that only 2-5% of the homeowners would/could take the offer so I doubt it would have much effect on home prices. Right now if we did the bailout, the net effect would be that the new NPV of the loan would be the discounted NPV. So either way, the loans are being sold at a discount to *someone*, why not the homeowner. That said, IMO housing should come back down to 3.2X median income anyway so if housing came down to $160k, that would be good for all in the long run, but again JMO :)
The banks are going to take the hit either way so I once the securities are valued, they are out of the equation insofar as that goes. Therefore they are getting "punished" for their part of the problem by having to absorb huge write-downs. The folks who couldn't afford the loans to begin with should lose the homes, they knew they couldn't afford the loans after the teaser rate yet took them anyway, they shouldn't be rewarded. Business as usual for that segment.
One of the serious flaws that the idea does not address (and nothing I've heard does) is that there are a good number of people who work hard and are saving up the 20% for a conventional loan and didn't buy a home in the last cycle, the idea is kinda not fair to these folks except for maybe a little more fall in housing prices. It's also not exactly fair to folks whose loans are *not* in this predicament. Given that the idea allows for some present homeowners to purchase their homes for a percentage of what they contractually agreed to, there are a good number of homeowners with conventional notes that will not get this offer, not exactly fair. We always address the rich & shameless who took advantage of the situation and the poor & needy who "were victims of predatory lending", but we never do address the average guy who was trying to, or doing things the right way.
Again, it was just an idea to throw out there for consideration :)
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2767429
Because this has been the only time i've ever seen CEO pay come up.
My view is if we "taxpayers" are going to bail you out... you are not going to take taxpayer money and the boost given to the business stock... and walk away with a salary of $5 million and a $10 million bonus. You will be paid well, but you are not going to capitalize on this.
For instance... its like me filing banruptcy... and not only getting credit relief from creditors... but also recieving a no strings paycheck worth so much money that I will never have to work again. .. and also being able to walk away from the bankruptcy with no penalty.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2767400
I don't remember the exact numbers but we produce quite a lot. Manufacturing just hasn't grown like other sectors of our economy. Dollar wise we still make more than we did in years past. The "problem" (depending on how you look at it) is that we are more efficient so it takes less to make much more.
Hmmm, I'd be interested in those numbers.
I don't think sewing an "Assembled in the USA" label onto a product made in China but stored in a U.S. warehouse should count.
If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. In my part of the country manufacturing is become an unusual occupation instead of a dominant occupation.
I just looked up the 4 largest employers for the city where I work:
State of New York 16,508
United States of America 10,000
Kaleida Health 9,500
City of Buffalo 8,218
So, out of the top four employers, three of them are the government. How is this ever supposed to work?
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2767596
Hmmm, I'd be interested in those numbers.
I don't think sewing an "Assembled in the USA" label onto a product made in China but stored in a U.S. warehouse should count.
If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. In my part of the country manufacturing is become an unusual occupation instead of a dominant occupation.
I just looked up the 4 largest employers for the city where I work:
State of New York 16,508
United States of America 10,000
Kaleida Health 9,500
City of Buffalo 8,218
So, out of the top four employers, three of them are the government. How is this ever supposed to work?
Don't get me wrong, If you've read some of my other economic posts. I've griped about simular stuff. Such as the fed being the largest employer in America. I ran across some paper doing research for another paper. Let me see if my password still works to get into my schools search engines.
All I remember was that the point of the paper is although percentages were falling. The dollar value of our manufacturing was increasing. (It might just have been exports)
 

aquaknight

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2767596
Hmmm, I'd be interested in those numbers.
I don't think sewing an "Assembled in the USA" label onto a product made in China but stored in a U.S. warehouse should count.
If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. In my part of the country manufacturing is become an unusual occupation instead of a dominant occupation.
I just looked up the 4 largest employers for the city where I work:
State of New York 16,508
United States of America 10,000
Kaleida Health 9,500
City of Buffalo 8,218
So, out of the top four employers, three of them are the government. How is this ever supposed to work?
Wow, I just spent the least couple of minutes looking up my local areas.
My guess on how it's works is other areas have to offset your imbalance.
For example, in Orlando, of the top 5 employers Walt-Disney is #1, and employes just a shade under the combine amount of the next top 2-5 employers (60,000 employees).
Or, another thought, you're omitting all the 'little guys.' While the government may employ big numbers there is probably lots and lots of smaller businesses, mom and pop places that will rival if not offset those big 3.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/2767613
Wow, I just spent the least couple of minutes looking up my local areas.
My guess on how it's works is other areas have to offset your imbalance.
For example, in Orlando, of the top 5 employers Walt-Disney is #1, and employes just a shade under the combine amount of the next top 2-5 employers (60,000 employees).
Or, another thought, you're omitting all the 'little guys.' While the government may employ big numbers there is probably lots and lots of smaller businesses, mom and pop places that will rival if not offset those big 3.
I may be way off here, but I think you're missing the point a little bit. The government bureaucracy doesn't produce much of anything, it takes money from producers and now is a bigger entity than any private company. Hence the how can this work question.
 

aquaknight

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2767663
I may be way off here, but I think you're missing the point a little bit. The government bureaucracy doesn't produce much of anything, it takes money from producers and now is a bigger entity than any private company. Hence the how can this work question.

Yea, I think, that was what I was trying to answer. There are a lot of 'little producers" so simply looking at the largest 3-4, isn't a good measure.

I guess it also depends on what's included in those figures (State of New York, City of Buffalo). In Greater Orlando, the report I found, has it that the second largest employer is Orange County Public School (24,000 employees). Thinking about it, yea, schools are big employers.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2767395
Throwing good money after bad IMO.
I predict we'll spend a Trillion now and another Trillion in 6 months when the first Trillion fails to produce results. Then, we'll be 2 Trillion in the hole and it still won't work.
We don't produce anything anymore
We consume beyond our means
We expect the Government to bail us out
We are hosed....
Dead on...
It's going to take an actual depression to beat the arrogance, apathy, and ignorance out of Americans again...
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2767701
The "rich" aren't the ones living beyond their means and buying homes with Sub-Prime lenders...
we all know that a culture of predatory lending and falsafication occured. This was easy money... and bankers would probably say after they completed a deal...."got another sucker"
The lenders marketed these loans as the next great thing and approved people for loans that otherwise they would not be able to get... the blame falls on the lenders... they are the ones that utlimately assume the risk... and in doing these loans that multiplied their risk 10x
 
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