Skimmerless Experiment Weekly Update

druluv

Member
thanks Evaredee
this was old piece that I had over a year, and the poor thing would not die. I did what you said, I put the coral in the fuge, and it seems like it is doing better but to add insult to injury, pods and worms are playing in it and it seems like the coral can't do any thing about. well I'm not sure maybe the coral is snacking on some when I'm not looking.
 

druluv

Member

then again.. there is not kalk drip in nature.. so i guess we can dismiss that methodology too.

Kalk is a natural process when fresh water gather nutrients going down stream and runs in to the ocean. A good example is the dunn's river falls in Jamaica. The water runs down hill from caves right into beach. Awesome site! you even get to climb it!
However, kalk drip right into regular reef water will precipate po4 out of the water. So it is really not the protein stripper but the kalk itself doing the job.
 

cincyreefer

Active Member
Interesting druluv, I never knew about the 'kalk drip' in jamaica. I knew about the vents kip is talking about, but never even thought about water running through caves.
I agree a skimmer can be unwanted on some tanks. I don't use one on my anemone tank or on my elegance and goniopora tank. I believe that all the zooxanthellae expelled daily is a critical part of the success of anemones and certain corals, and think that a good skimmer can remove too much of it. I believe that host cells will often expel some of the symbiotic algae randomly in the cell cycle, and not in the preferential late G and M phases. This is not preferred because the symbiotic algae may not have had time to photosynthesize. If these algae are removed via skimming, then the net population growth of this algae will be regulated if additional sources of algae ( from other symbiotic animals that host the same or similar dinoflagellate) are not present or in great enough quantity. This could eventually lead to bleaching.
 

druluv

Member
good point cincyreefer :eek:
I didn't know that. Thanks for the input! The protein stripper would be a good tool if you can pick and choose what you want it to take out.
How about carbon and its affect on reef tanks?
 

rwhite

Member
Sorry I'm late to this thread, been travelling for work for the past 2 weeks and couldnt get on-line where I was. Lots of interesting topics going on here and just wanted to add a couple of cents.
We have 2 tanks running right now: 55 and 10. The 55 has a Prizm skimmer (not the "best" by far), no fuge but some macro in the display, Penguin 330 and Fluval 304 filters and 60-65 lbs of LR. Thats about all the filtration we have and all seems well on the reef. Bioload: 2 Clarkiis, Coral Beauty, Y-tail damsel and neon dotty; cleaner and CBS; various snails/hermits; toadstool, H. shrooms, GSP, blue shrooms, button polyps, some zoos, bubble and FL rics; 2 BTAs (split about 2-3 weeks ago). We add nothing to the system except new water and cal/buffer if necessary. No dripping, reactors or anything. Oh yeah, CC base vacuumed during water changes.
The 10 has no skimmer, Penguin mini and old Tetra (I think) filter, some macro, and say 7 lbs of LR with CC base. Bioload: Blue damsel, snails/hermits, CBS and H. duster; button polyps, green shrooms and some frags of GSP.
The 55 has been running for a year and 4 mos.(with ups and downs in the beginning) and the 10 for about a year or less. The 10 used to be the Q tank,but since I think we reached our limit in the 55 it became our own little experiment to see what we could grow. Both tanks seem to be doing fine, no losses for a long time. Granted, the corals aren't spreading like "wild fire" as has been described for GSP, shrooms and zoos, that may be because we dont supplement, but they are spreading and the bubble is bigger than it was when we got it and the BTA split tells me everything is fine.
Just re-enforcing the fact that there are many ways to have a successful reef.
The only question I have for dru is: Why not have a skimmer? After putting all of the other equipment on the system, money couldnt have been a factor. And with all that stuff I'm sure you'll have a success, but with all the supplemental equip. how could a skimmer strip that much out? Not trying to knock your "experiment", but not running a skimmer with all the other stuff doesnt really show me anything. I've been toying with the idea of not running our skimmer for a month or so to see what happens, but I'm not sure if that would prove anything either only the fact that I spent money on something I dont need. What does eveyone think? Join the experiment with a lot less equipment than many people or leave everything as is...since its not broke?
 

rwhite

Member
Glad you're still reading Kip. So, with the bioload in the 55 and selection of corals we have, do you feel that a skimmer is essential to our tank? It dosent seem to be doing any harm, I can only assume that its beneficial. Input is most appreciated.
 

footbag

Active Member
What would happen if you put a skimmer on freshly mixed salt water? No bio-load, just RO/DI water and salt. This water change water should have all of the essential ellements required for a system, but I don't belive that any of these elements will skim out. Sure in a set-up tank, Phyto and other Planktons will be removed, but that reproduces in a system pretty readily, correct?
 

rwhite

Member
I think you're right footbag, my guess would be there would be no skimmate. I'm assuming the skimmate would be the only thing any elements could attach to thereby "removing" them. Of course, this is only a guess. Like I said, water changes are the only things we really do, other than basic maintenance, and our systems seem to be doing fine with and without a skimmer. And, as Kip has stated, bioload and coral selection seem to be the major factors--low bioload may not need skimmed. I think I'll leave ours be, I'd hate to see a crash for any reason so I'll continue the way I've been doing it for a year.
 

rwhite

Member
Thanks Kip. I think I'll leave well enough alone as I stated in the previous post, no need to change it if everthing is fine IMO.
 

bang guy

Moderator

Originally posted by druluv
I really feel that caulerpa can do the same job as a protein skimmer with removing the good stuff out of the tank.

The results of the skimmate analysis I was part of indicated that skimmers generally don't remove significant quantities of trace elements. PO4 was one removed in quantity.
 

footbag

Active Member
Bang Guy,
Do you have the analasys of skimmate? I've been looking for one for a while. You would assume that skimmer companies would be doing this testing. Unless its a cover-up and skimmers are actually a bad thing.:rolleyes:
 

bang guy

Moderator
Do you have a specific set of elements you're targeting? It's a big list :)
I just noticed the Aluminum content... that's another big element removed.
 

benj2112

Member

Originally posted by cincyreefer
I just want to add that po4 does not bind micro-bubbles and a skimmer will not remove any po4 unless you are supplementing with a product that can bind the po4 and be collected in skimmate foam.

...like kalk drip through the air injection point of my bad boy Euro Reef.
Question for Bang Guy...
With the above quote not seeming to be argued I don't understand why a skimmer would "remove PO4 in quantity"?
 

footbag

Active Member
I'm wondering if there was a way to find out what "beneficial" elements were removed. Actually, are any common additives present. Iodine, Strontium, Molybdenum, Magnesium... Also, what would planktons show up as? Any heavy-metals?
 

benj2112

Member
Yeah...I understand the dripping of kalk to get the precip of calcium phosphate into the skimmate.
I haven't heard of this beeing a very common practice...so I was am just wondering if Bang Guy was doing this to get the quantity of PO4 in his skimmate? Or am I just not understanding what he is actually saying?
 

joerdie

Member
but if you drip kalk into the air intake wont that defeat the purpose of having a skimmer? please explain.... or diagram.... or both!!!
 

benj2112

Member

Originally posted by Kip4130
dripping kalk into a skimmer is a very common practice
hydroxide from kalk sticks to po4 along with organics and is taken to the collection cup
if not dripped right into the skimmer.. the hydroxide has time to react with carbon dioxide to form CO3

I stand corrected about it not being common. I have just never heard about it before these skimmer posts and one book that I have mentions it. :D
Glad I won't have to go there though, since I got one of those phosban reactors up and running. I will just let my skimmer go for the disolved organics.
Thanks Kip.
 

dburr

Active Member
Ha, this thread is going to have a birthday.:cheer: What ever happened to the weekly update?
 

druluv

Member
I actually moved, And had to sell the tank. :nope: But I did set up my new 120 and will show pics soon:jumping:
 
Top