Skimmerless Experiment Weekly Update
- Thread starter druluv
- Start date
druluv
Member
I realized that Kip. But it is not wide spread knowledge. I feel that it is good to see if the regular marine hobbiest can duplicate the success. In addition, it provides more depth to the knowledge base on reef aquariums.
When I first started with reefs, my lfs told me bunch bullsh_t on this topic. I had to search all over to get something that makes sense to me. Kip you have your way of doing things and you are successful with it. Why would you change anything? If it ain't broke don't fix it. I have learned many things from this site, that is why I added a PO4 reactor on my tank. We can go on forever, whether or not the skimmer is really a vital part of the reef. We are from different schools of thought. And your school is the more widely accepted one. I trying to give my school a little bit more exposure.
Agree?
When I first started with reefs, my lfs told me bunch bullsh_t on this topic. I had to search all over to get something that makes sense to me. Kip you have your way of doing things and you are successful with it. Why would you change anything? If it ain't broke don't fix it. I have learned many things from this site, that is why I added a PO4 reactor on my tank. We can go on forever, whether or not the skimmer is really a vital part of the reef. We are from different schools of thought. And your school is the more widely accepted one. I trying to give my school a little bit more exposure.
Agree?
jlem
Active Member
Originally posted by druluv
This shows that a protein skimmer is really not needed to keep your tank clean.
This is the only quote that I had more of an annoyance with. It seems very misleading to say that after two weeks that you can really show anything with any experiment. Food, suppliments, water changes and even nutrient exportation of any sort is not needed to keep a tank going for two weeks or even a month, expecially a newly established tank.
I am sure that it is possible to have a successfull system without a skimmer. People have been doing skimmerless systems for years. I don't see the real big deal about making a big deal about a skimmerless system since it is nothing new.
Have fun with your system and good luck
druluv
Member
Kip
You may feel your way is the only way. A couple of years ago the world was flat :notsure:.
I don't believe in check and balances, but in an eco-chain. One organism dependant on the other for survival.
My system incorporates my new xenia frag which is growing well, small & big cleaner clams, various worms and pods.
I never claimed I'm the only one that is using this system, but I would like this sytem to more accepted with the reef community.
I know when a newbie ask for help the first thing is always
get a Protein Skimmer- the biggest one you can find. After that get a gallon of trace elements to dump back in your tank. This is not the only way.
Our two systems should be the crossroad for people to decide
on which road to travel. Natural or Water stripping. That's why it is important for this tank to succeed.
You may feel your way is the only way. A couple of years ago the world was flat :notsure:.
I don't believe in check and balances, but in an eco-chain. One organism dependant on the other for survival.
My system incorporates my new xenia frag which is growing well, small & big cleaner clams, various worms and pods.
I never claimed I'm the only one that is using this system, but I would like this sytem to more accepted with the reef community.
I know when a newbie ask for help the first thing is always
get a Protein Skimmer- the biggest one you can find. After that get a gallon of trace elements to dump back in your tank. This is not the only way.
Our two systems should be the crossroad for people to decide
on which road to travel. Natural or Water stripping. That's why it is important for this tank to succeed.
cadbury
Member
Once again, I have had mine running for almost 3 years with great success, with no high tech reactors or skimmers. The Ecosystem seems to be doing great, the culerpa seems to be thriving and so do the corals and fish in my tank...... Why fix it if its not broken. Like I said, maybe just do periodic water changes with your ecosystem and I think you can have great success........
cadbury
Member
Thanks Kip, well as far as my fish, here is a list:
Vlegemi Tang
Mimic Tanf
Purple Tang
6 Chromis
1 Purple Firefish
2 Mated pair Tomato Clownfish
2 Engineer Gobies
1 Royal Gramma
1 Bartlett Anthias
All fish are about 2 years old or older except the Bartlett, its 3 months.
Also have 2 Cleaner Shrimp,1 Harlequin, 7 Pepperment and lots of snails and hermit crabs.
Also have a pretty well established amount of coral, it would be a lot to name. I do have a pic, I can send it to you if you give me your email address, I have never posted a pic here before. My ecosystem is the same size as yours and I trim the culerpa about every 2 weeks
Vlegemi Tang
Mimic Tanf
Purple Tang
6 Chromis
1 Purple Firefish
2 Mated pair Tomato Clownfish
2 Engineer Gobies
1 Royal Gramma
1 Bartlett Anthias
All fish are about 2 years old or older except the Bartlett, its 3 months.
Also have 2 Cleaner Shrimp,1 Harlequin, 7 Pepperment and lots of snails and hermit crabs.
Also have a pretty well established amount of coral, it would be a lot to name. I do have a pic, I can send it to you if you give me your email address, I have never posted a pic here before. My ecosystem is the same size as yours and I trim the culerpa about every 2 weeks
cadbury
Member
Lol.....go ahead Kip, let me have it? Always willing to take some criticism, thats how we learn.
To tell you the truth, xenia is the only thing I dont have, for some reason I have a hard time growing it, my levels seem to be where there supposed to be, so I can't figure it out. However all my other corals seem to be doing great and multiplying, some slower than other but nevertheless thriving.
To tell you the truth, xenia is the only thing I dont have, for some reason I have a hard time growing it, my levels seem to be where there supposed to be, so I can't figure it out. However all my other corals seem to be doing great and multiplying, some slower than other but nevertheless thriving.
druluv
Member
Kip it is not an attack. You are keeping me on my toes, and I like that.
. Even though my tank was stocked rapidly, I have experience no fish lost, knock on wood. How many berlin tanks would of crap out already. Hey takes about two week just for the skimmer to start working. On the otherside the cualerpa just grew to accomodate the extra load. So far you are mistaken about my bio-load stress on my inhabitant. However, you have a good point because my fuge hasn't produced enough food for my coral. You won't beileve me until I have a blue tort that rivals yours lol
Off topic
Kip -
I noticed that my montis were pretty close to my toadstool and finger coral. I have read that these corals produce toxins that can damage hard corals is this true.
Off topic
Kip -
I noticed that my montis were pretty close to my toadstool and finger coral. I have read that these corals produce toxins that can damage hard corals is this true.
cadbury
Member
Your right Kip, I do have a mostly softie tank, I do have a few hard corals, but not enough to talk about. I believe that hard corals do need more ideal water conditions and the skimmer would be needed in that case as well as other devices. Thats what this board is about right, we need to educate everyone else. I think there is some people that do go overboard here, but I think you just have to keep an open mind and that everyone has their own ideas how things work, possibly from passed experiances. I been in this hobby for about 15 years and by no means am I an expert, but I think I can hold my own! Good luck to you all.
And Kip, could you post that pic for me? I just never knew how to do it?
Thanks!
And Kip, could you post that pic for me? I just never knew how to do it?
Thanks!
druluv
Member
Well kip remember caulerpa only releases toxins when going asexual, and this doesn't happen under 24/ 7 lighting. So far this has been my experience. This may not be the case for other fuge reefers.
So kip you do feel that caulerpa may absorb some of the soft coral toxins from the water?
So kip you do feel that caulerpa may absorb some of the soft coral toxins from the water?
cincyreefer
Active Member
I'll add my 2 cents. First of all, that is a nice looking tank Cadbury!
Kip do you have any evidence that supports the claim that xenia uptake is greater than most macros? I have heard many people claim that many times and no one can ever give me anything to prove that. I have proof as to how much a couple species of caleurpa and sargassum can uptake and would like to compare. It just doesn't match my experience with nutrient uptake between xenia and caleurpa.
I agree that what you plan on keeping should be the biggest factor in how you set up a tank. You will have many more options with a conservative to no bio-load.
I agree with Kip that caleurpa can go sexual at any time, and I have never seen anything to show that caleurpa will sequester the toxins put off by soft corals. I don't believe that caleupin will be released unless it has gone sexual, however.
Also, I don't know if I would consider a protein skimmer "un-natural"... the ocean uses one.
Kip do you have any evidence that supports the claim that xenia uptake is greater than most macros? I have heard many people claim that many times and no one can ever give me anything to prove that. I have proof as to how much a couple species of caleurpa and sargassum can uptake and would like to compare. It just doesn't match my experience with nutrient uptake between xenia and caleurpa.
I agree that what you plan on keeping should be the biggest factor in how you set up a tank. You will have many more options with a conservative to no bio-load.
I agree with Kip that caleurpa can go sexual at any time, and I have never seen anything to show that caleurpa will sequester the toxins put off by soft corals. I don't believe that caleupin will be released unless it has gone sexual, however.
Also, I don't know if I would consider a protein skimmer "un-natural"... the ocean uses one.
druluv
Member
cincy -
my only beef with protein skimmers is that they tend to strip the water. I think it is a good tool to have if you are into a berlin type set up. However, Skimmers are not vital part of a successful reef. Many tanks have protein skimmers and nothing thrives in it. All you have do is go to some of your local fish stores. Berlin style tanks take longer to become stable then skimmerless tanks. That is why Kip felt that I stock my tank to fast. Even though my water is clean and my fish are swimming happy. When I look into my fuge, there is some much action going on in there. I see pods, worms, and I started seeing some small benthic creatures I have never seen before. I believe that these creatures are what the coral filter out of the water. If I had a protein skimmer all of these creatures would be part of the gunk everyboby is happy about when they empty out there skimmer cup.
Moreover, the protein skimmers that they are making now are so effiecient that the water has nothing essential in it. Thus, the adding of more chemical addition, and super powers marine salts. If this is your cup of tea then so be it.
Caulerpa only wants the bad stuff, and doesn't break down like micro - algae scrubbers. I have yet to experience my caulerpa break down. Many people have fuges working with their protein skimmers, maybe thats why their pants go sexually; no nutrients for the plants to up take.
I thought about using all the different filtration theories but I felt the skimmer would work against my fuge. Both techniques would be competing for nutrients. in addition, people are using uv sterilizes, and ozone because they felt that the protein stripper is not doing a good enough job. Some people like there water stripped, I don't know why but that is the case.
And the toxins that these plants release are:
Phycocollides are also produced, which are large non-crystalline molecules that are often referred to as seaweed gums. These are similar to the ingredients used in water conditioners for aquaria and when introduced to the water a thin sticky emulsion results, which acts as
a coating agent.
These emulsions are called colloides, which, since they diffuse easily through living tissue, can protect fish from skin and gill disorders.
In addition
It's also long been known that marine algae, including Caulerpa, contain several substances that have a significant antibiotic effect towards fungal diseases and those caused by pathogenic bacteria.
Who wants these bad stuff in their tank. The protein skimmer would just lift this out of the water. This why I didn't want the fuge and protein stripper together. Not all proteins are bad
my only beef with protein skimmers is that they tend to strip the water. I think it is a good tool to have if you are into a berlin type set up. However, Skimmers are not vital part of a successful reef. Many tanks have protein skimmers and nothing thrives in it. All you have do is go to some of your local fish stores. Berlin style tanks take longer to become stable then skimmerless tanks. That is why Kip felt that I stock my tank to fast. Even though my water is clean and my fish are swimming happy. When I look into my fuge, there is some much action going on in there. I see pods, worms, and I started seeing some small benthic creatures I have never seen before. I believe that these creatures are what the coral filter out of the water. If I had a protein skimmer all of these creatures would be part of the gunk everyboby is happy about when they empty out there skimmer cup.
Moreover, the protein skimmers that they are making now are so effiecient that the water has nothing essential in it. Thus, the adding of more chemical addition, and super powers marine salts. If this is your cup of tea then so be it.
Caulerpa only wants the bad stuff, and doesn't break down like micro - algae scrubbers. I have yet to experience my caulerpa break down. Many people have fuges working with their protein skimmers, maybe thats why their pants go sexually; no nutrients for the plants to up take.
I thought about using all the different filtration theories but I felt the skimmer would work against my fuge. Both techniques would be competing for nutrients. in addition, people are using uv sterilizes, and ozone because they felt that the protein stripper is not doing a good enough job. Some people like there water stripped, I don't know why but that is the case.
And the toxins that these plants release are:
Phycocollides are also produced, which are large non-crystalline molecules that are often referred to as seaweed gums. These are similar to the ingredients used in water conditioners for aquaria and when introduced to the water a thin sticky emulsion results, which acts as
a coating agent.
These emulsions are called colloides, which, since they diffuse easily through living tissue, can protect fish from skin and gill disorders.
In addition
It's also long been known that marine algae, including Caulerpa, contain several substances that have a significant antibiotic effect towards fungal diseases and those caused by pathogenic bacteria.
Who wants these bad stuff in their tank. The protein skimmer would just lift this out of the water. This why I didn't want the fuge and protein stripper together. Not all proteins are bad
druluv
Member
Originally posted by Kip4130
run a fuge on that system in tandem with the skimmer and have no worries... if one fails.. the other picks up the slack
This is my point. my system is not based on check and balances but on a chain. Caulerpa is not the only thing filtering the tank, I have a xenia frag that is growing, different assortment of clams that use NO3 to grow.
Would I be pissed off to know that I bought my protein stripper and it does't bind PO4, now that sucks!
evaredee
New Member
Your bubble coral will come back if you follow these instructions. Place the Bubble in the sand and stand it stright up with polyps facing the light. Try to put the base into the sand maybe an inch deep. My bubble was dying a few years ago. I was very attached to it since it was the first coral I ever purchased. I put it face up in the sand and left there to die. To my amazement it has rebounded to the point of being larger than when I bought it. My friend's bubble was dying and I told him to do the same thing. It worked again. I urge you to give th bubble one more chance in the tank. Face up to the light with the base buried in the sand. Leave it alone for a few months and watch it rebound. Keep it in a medium current spot as well.