STOP the delivery of nitrates
- Thread starter florida joe
- Start date
aquaknight
Active Member
I see what Joe and Henry are saying (anyone feel different, please correct me). If you prevent garbage from getting to the bioballs, they convert amm->nitri->nitra very well. So far, everyone has agree. Joe said that bioballs outperform live sand/live rock in that part of the process. I'll even agree with that. For producing aerobic bacteria nitrosomas and nitrobacter, there isn't anything better.
However, what Renee (Cran) and Beth are getting at, but haven't said directly, is that perhaps we should be willing to give up some of the first part of the de-nitri process, for more help on the 'back end' as Cran puts it.
Bioballs turn the bads into nitrates, but then what? It's not as simple as having the bioballs do the first part of the denitrication and then that means that the LR and/or LS in the DT will be more able house anaerobic bacteria.
Over 99% of problems it seems is with nitrate, not the first two, amm, nitri. A guy with SPS stocked to the brim, trying to fight the last 25ppm of nitrate, or that guy with an overstocked FOWLR, fighting to keep nitrates under 200. Very rarely to we see problems with ammonia or nitrite, esp. if you eliminate problems from people who didn't complete cycling correctly.
So, in conclusion, if we sacrifice the bioballs, lose some of the early conversion power, and switch to extra LR and LS, via refugium, we gain extra power to fight nitrates, which bioballs does not allow.
However, what Renee (Cran) and Beth are getting at, but haven't said directly, is that perhaps we should be willing to give up some of the first part of the de-nitri process, for more help on the 'back end' as Cran puts it.
Bioballs turn the bads into nitrates, but then what? It's not as simple as having the bioballs do the first part of the denitrication and then that means that the LR and/or LS in the DT will be more able house anaerobic bacteria.
Over 99% of problems it seems is with nitrate, not the first two, amm, nitri. A guy with SPS stocked to the brim, trying to fight the last 25ppm of nitrate, or that guy with an overstocked FOWLR, fighting to keep nitrates under 200. Very rarely to we see problems with ammonia or nitrite, esp. if you eliminate problems from people who didn't complete cycling correctly.
So, in conclusion, if we sacrifice the bioballs, lose some of the early conversion power, and switch to extra LR and LS, via refugium, we gain extra power to fight nitrates, which bioballs does not allow.
cranberry
Active Member
Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/3119939
So, in conclusion, if we sacrifice the bioballs, lose some of the early conversion power, and switch to extra LR and LS, via refugium, we gain extra power to fight nitrates, which bioballs does not allow.
Yes. Exactly.
http:///forum/post/3119939
So, in conclusion, if we sacrifice the bioballs, lose some of the early conversion power, and switch to extra LR and LS, via refugium, we gain extra power to fight nitrates, which bioballs does not allow.
Yes. Exactly.
ophiura
Active Member
Originally Posted by crypt keeper
http:///forum/post/3119492
bio balls suck. I have bio balls on my 40 breeder with a 12 inch eel and the trates read higher than my 150 with a 55 gallon sump fuge and skimmer. I also feed the eel every 4 days. I feed my 150 3 to 4 times daily. The filter on the 40 is gross after a few months while my sump on my 150 is crytsal clear and water is great. I only do monthly changes on both tanks. Im actually switching the 40 into a hob overflow sump system to get rid of the bio balls.
Again bio balls suck.
They may also well be keeping your eel alive. Bioballs are very effective at what they do, which is converting HIGHLY toxic ammonia to far less toxic nitrate. I would rather have a nitrate issue than an ammonia issue at any time.
IMO, it is not your bioballs causing this problem. It is what is going into the tank. You can not compare these two systems, IMO, just based on the amount of food alone or filtration. this is quite complex in many ways and not an apple to apple comparison.
In a predator tank I would absolutely, positively use some sort of biomedia like bioballs. Very very very good and efficient at what they do.
If the filter is gross, "every few months" and you only do monthly water changes, this is part of the problem in and of itself. Not the bioballs in and of themselves...bioballs like any filter need to be frequently and properly maintained, as with the system as a whole.
FWIW, Bioballs have saved many a butt in this hobby...and in turn many fish.
http:///forum/post/3119492
bio balls suck. I have bio balls on my 40 breeder with a 12 inch eel and the trates read higher than my 150 with a 55 gallon sump fuge and skimmer. I also feed the eel every 4 days. I feed my 150 3 to 4 times daily. The filter on the 40 is gross after a few months while my sump on my 150 is crytsal clear and water is great. I only do monthly changes on both tanks. Im actually switching the 40 into a hob overflow sump system to get rid of the bio balls.
Again bio balls suck.
They may also well be keeping your eel alive. Bioballs are very effective at what they do, which is converting HIGHLY toxic ammonia to far less toxic nitrate. I would rather have a nitrate issue than an ammonia issue at any time.
IMO, it is not your bioballs causing this problem. It is what is going into the tank. You can not compare these two systems, IMO, just based on the amount of food alone or filtration. this is quite complex in many ways and not an apple to apple comparison.
In a predator tank I would absolutely, positively use some sort of biomedia like bioballs. Very very very good and efficient at what they do.
If the filter is gross, "every few months" and you only do monthly water changes, this is part of the problem in and of itself. Not the bioballs in and of themselves...bioballs like any filter need to be frequently and properly maintained, as with the system as a whole.
FWIW, Bioballs have saved many a butt in this hobby...and in turn many fish.
hammerhed7
Active Member
I agree with the above, I do not run any bioballs in my reef, as the large amount of sand and rock do the job well. In my aggressive tank I would need mountains of rock and sand to do the same job with the big eaters. I do run bioballs in in my aggressive tank, and I have more room for the big guys to swim, as opposed to a tank full of rock. I believe bioballs still have a place in our hobby.
That being said, I agree with joe's theory in that less going in means less coming out.
That being said, I agree with joe's theory in that less going in means less coming out.
nigerbang
Active Member
Im with Henry also.. I thought that was a no brainer.. Whenever I feed the tank I turn my ReefKeeper2 into stand by and it shuts down all powerheads,skimmer and return..
BUT when it all powers back up and the uneaten food will be stirred up again although in a lesser form and BAM back down the overflow.. Granted probably less than normal but, it will still end up there..
BUT when it all powers back up and the uneaten food will be stirred up again although in a lesser form and BAM back down the overflow.. Granted probably less than normal but, it will still end up there..
florida joe
Well-Known Member
Allow me once again to try to explain by thread.
I will start by saying what it is not.
It is NOT a thread on bio balls vs. live rock
It is NOT a thread on bio balls vs. rubble rock
It is NOT a thread on bio balls vs. live sand
IT is NOT a thread on bio balls being out dated.
It is a simple thread presented by a simple-minded person. The thread is aimed at people who have bio balls in their trickle system and will keep them there. All I am suggesting is to turn off your pumps as running them can cause uneaten food to have the potential to accumulate in you bio-ball area. This development is what gives the bio ball a undeserved title of nitrate factory. As my friends Bang and Henry seem to think this is a standard practice. I will apologize for the redundancy of posting it.
I will start by saying what it is not.
It is NOT a thread on bio balls vs. live rock
It is NOT a thread on bio balls vs. rubble rock
It is NOT a thread on bio balls vs. live sand
IT is NOT a thread on bio balls being out dated.
It is a simple thread presented by a simple-minded person. The thread is aimed at people who have bio balls in their trickle system and will keep them there. All I am suggesting is to turn off your pumps as running them can cause uneaten food to have the potential to accumulate in you bio-ball area. This development is what gives the bio ball a undeserved title of nitrate factory. As my friends Bang and Henry seem to think this is a standard practice. I will apologize for the redundancy of posting it.
spanko
Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
.............As my friends Bang and Henry seem to think this is a standard practice. I will apologize for the redundancy of posting it.
Take the knots out of your knickers Joe, here from post #14'
Originally Posted by spanko
..........I guess it needs to be brought up from time to time for all of the new people and yes even for those who get carried away and forget. The basics to me are...........
.............As my friends Bang and Henry seem to think this is a standard practice. I will apologize for the redundancy of posting it.
Take the knots out of your knickers Joe, here from post #14'
Originally Posted by spanko
..........I guess it needs to be brought up from time to time for all of the new people and yes even for those who get carried away and forget. The basics to me are...........
spanko
Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3120198
Allow me once again to try to explain by thread.
I will start by saying what it is not.
It is NOT a thread on bio balls vs. live rock
It is NOT a thread on bio balls vs. rubble rock
It is NOT a thread on bio balls vs. live sand
IT is NOT a thread on bio balls being out dated.
It is a simple thread presented by a simple-minded person. The thread is aimed at people who have bio balls in their trickle system and will keep them there. All I am suggesting is to turn off your pumps as running them can cause uneaten food to have the potential to accumulate in you bio-ball area. This development is what gives the bio ball a undeserved title of nitrate factory. As my friends Bang and Henry seem to think this is a standard practice. I will apologize for the redundancy of posting it.
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3120226
Take the knots out of your knickers Joe, here from post #14'
Originally Posted by NigerBang
http:///forum/post/3120229
No worries my main man.. Something I heard ages ago..
I think this thread is GREAT!!
For those who are starting out or people with years of experience its always good to have threads like this..Helps teach everyone old and new!
Aw, group hug....................................
http:///forum/post/3120198
Allow me once again to try to explain by thread.
I will start by saying what it is not.
It is NOT a thread on bio balls vs. live rock
It is NOT a thread on bio balls vs. rubble rock
It is NOT a thread on bio balls vs. live sand
IT is NOT a thread on bio balls being out dated.
It is a simple thread presented by a simple-minded person. The thread is aimed at people who have bio balls in their trickle system and will keep them there. All I am suggesting is to turn off your pumps as running them can cause uneaten food to have the potential to accumulate in you bio-ball area. This development is what gives the bio ball a undeserved title of nitrate factory. As my friends Bang and Henry seem to think this is a standard practice. I will apologize for the redundancy of posting it.
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3120226
Take the knots out of your knickers Joe, here from post #14'
Originally Posted by NigerBang
http:///forum/post/3120229
No worries my main man.. Something I heard ages ago..
I think this thread is GREAT!!
For those who are starting out or people with years of experience its always good to have threads like this..Helps teach everyone old and new!
Aw, group hug....................................
florida joe
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by NigerBang
http:///forum/post/3120229
No worries my main man.. Something I heard ages ago..
I think this thread is GREAT!!
For those who are starting out or people with years of experience its always good to have threads like this..Helps teach everyone old and new!
Thanks pal it is Appreciated.
Take the knots out of your knickers Joe
Henry I take great offence to your remark. I don’t think you know what the hell you are talking about so to set the record straight those are not KNOTS in my knickers they are N……. oh never mind
http:///forum/post/3120229
No worries my main man.. Something I heard ages ago..
I think this thread is GREAT!!
For those who are starting out or people with years of experience its always good to have threads like this..Helps teach everyone old and new!
Thanks pal it is Appreciated.
Take the knots out of your knickers Joe
Henry I take great offence to your remark. I don’t think you know what the hell you are talking about so to set the record straight those are not KNOTS in my knickers they are N……. oh never mind
Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/3119939
Bioballs turn the bads into nitrates, but then what? It's not as simple as having the bioballs do the first part of the denitrication and then that means that the LR and/or LS in the DT will be more able house anaerobic bacteria.
Over 99% of problems it seems is with nitrate, not the first two, amm, nitri. A guy with SPS stocked to the brim, trying to fight the last 25ppm of nitrate, or that guy with an overstocked FOWLR, fighting to keep nitrates under 200. Very rarely to we see problems with ammonia or nitrite, esp. if you eliminate problems from people who didn't complete cycling correctly.
So, in conclusion, if we sacrifice the bioballs, lose some of the early conversion power, and switch to extra LR and LS, via refugium, we gain extra power to fight nitrates, which bioballs does not allow.
Exactly right! Well put. The topic is about nitrates, and how not to have this problem, or, if you do have this problem, how to get rid of it. Bioballs is not the answer to the nitrate problem.
In a predator tank I would absolutely, positively use some sort of biomedia like bioballs. Very very very good and efficient at what they do.
I'd agree to that. Aggressive systems has its own chapter on "how to set up". I don't have any experience with aggressive tanks, but if I was interested in them, I might try to set things up minimizing use of man-made filters (the exception being a skimmer).
http:///forum/post/3119939
Bioballs turn the bads into nitrates, but then what? It's not as simple as having the bioballs do the first part of the denitrication and then that means that the LR and/or LS in the DT will be more able house anaerobic bacteria.
Over 99% of problems it seems is with nitrate, not the first two, amm, nitri. A guy with SPS stocked to the brim, trying to fight the last 25ppm of nitrate, or that guy with an overstocked FOWLR, fighting to keep nitrates under 200. Very rarely to we see problems with ammonia or nitrite, esp. if you eliminate problems from people who didn't complete cycling correctly.
So, in conclusion, if we sacrifice the bioballs, lose some of the early conversion power, and switch to extra LR and LS, via refugium, we gain extra power to fight nitrates, which bioballs does not allow.
Exactly right! Well put. The topic is about nitrates, and how not to have this problem, or, if you do have this problem, how to get rid of it. Bioballs is not the answer to the nitrate problem.
In a predator tank I would absolutely, positively use some sort of biomedia like bioballs. Very very very good and efficient at what they do.
I'd agree to that. Aggressive systems has its own chapter on "how to set up". I don't have any experience with aggressive tanks, but if I was interested in them, I might try to set things up minimizing use of man-made filters (the exception being a skimmer).
florida joe
Well-Known Member
Bioballs is not the answer to the nitrate problem
Beth I totally agree with your quote if you are saying. Your nitrate problem is not the result of having bio-balls
Beth I totally agree with your quote if you are saying. Your nitrate problem is not the result of having bio-balls
Well, indirectly, if you have bioballs and use them as most do, as both a mechanical and a biological filter, yes the bioballs contribute to nitrates, because, as you said, debris get caught up in them, resulting in insufficient breakdown of nutrients. The end result is nitrates. The same can be said of ANY media, including carbon, ceramic pieces, filter pads, etc. All of these things provide surface area for the bacteria we need to run our tanks; however, unfortunately, they also clog up quickly and, to avoid their mechanical filtration, the hobbyist must change or clean media/balls very frequently. And, ironically, cleaning these things destroys their biofilter capacity.
This is way too much trouble for most set ups, when you can set up a tank that will perform so much of the filtration for you. Who prefers biofilters, wet-drys, and canister filters to a natural set up with a DSB, live rock, refuguium? At the end of the day, a natural system is much more pleasing, its more in keeping with what we try to achieve for our tanks, and its not cumbersome. Natural filters are actually fun to develop, as opposed to being a weekend chore that we need to set aside time for maintenance.
Who enjoys showing off their bioballs and filter pads, as opposed to those who can be proud of a thriving DSB, macro tank, refuguium?
This is way too much trouble for most set ups, when you can set up a tank that will perform so much of the filtration for you. Who prefers biofilters, wet-drys, and canister filters to a natural set up with a DSB, live rock, refuguium? At the end of the day, a natural system is much more pleasing, its more in keeping with what we try to achieve for our tanks, and its not cumbersome. Natural filters are actually fun to develop, as opposed to being a weekend chore that we need to set aside time for maintenance.
Who enjoys showing off their bioballs and filter pads, as opposed to those who can be proud of a thriving DSB, macro tank, refuguium?
V
vince-1961
Guest
Originally Posted by GWhunter
http:///forum/post/3119676
Then once the macro has tied up the nitrates you remove some.
Matt
It seems more logical to me to leave the cheato in and let it grow until it has grown so much that there is no more room for it. I'm figuring a bigger clump eats more nitrates than a smaller clump.
?
http:///forum/post/3119676
Then once the macro has tied up the nitrates you remove some.
Matt
It seems more logical to me to leave the cheato in and let it grow until it has grown so much that there is no more room for it. I'm figuring a bigger clump eats more nitrates than a smaller clump.
?
G
gwhunter
Guest
Originally Posted by vince-1961
http:///forum/post/3120346
It seems more logical to me to leave the cheato in and let it grow until it has grown so much that there is no more room for it. I'm figuring a bigger clump eats more nitrates than a smaller clump.
?
Oh no your getting off topic. Joe's gonna be furious
. I'm not sure on that statement. I believe some of the algea needs to be removed taking the nitrates with it. I've yet to add the algea to my system but from what I've read this is the way to do it. But this maybe should be a topic for another separate thread. So far there's lots of good info but I often wonder the results. Since everyone's methods and tanks are different it seems it may not be as cut and dry as some of the opinions and hypothisis state.
Matt
http:///forum/post/3120346
It seems more logical to me to leave the cheato in and let it grow until it has grown so much that there is no more room for it. I'm figuring a bigger clump eats more nitrates than a smaller clump.
?
Oh no your getting off topic. Joe's gonna be furious
Matt
bmkj02
Member
I like the idea of shutting off the pumps when feeding. Can be a pain though for some people who might have to go under the tank to unplug it. Some have a seperate switch for them. I have on of those American DJ switches on the side of my tank so I can switch off the pump when feeding.
This is my thing and I hope I am not off track here. When I set up my 55g I had the Bio balls in the sump. After a year or so I started taking them out slowly per my LFS. When I set up my 125g I used the bio balls again to speed up the process and was thinking of getting rid of them again after a year. To me it seems more of a problem having the bio balls then not having them. In the mean time I think I will start shutting off my pumps at feeding.
This is my thing and I hope I am not off track here. When I set up my 55g I had the Bio balls in the sump. After a year or so I started taking them out slowly per my LFS. When I set up my 125g I used the bio balls again to speed up the process and was thinking of getting rid of them again after a year. To me it seems more of a problem having the bio balls then not having them. In the mean time I think I will start shutting off my pumps at feeding.