STOP the delivery of nitrates

cranberry

Active Member
It doesn't contribute in that it adds nitrates to the system, it contributes by not efficently converting the nitrate to nitrogen gas.
What is to blame for the nitrates in our tank is our heavy feeding hand, our too crowded tanks and our laziness in affiliation for maintenance.
Did you ever see the "I love Lucy Show"?
Here's another analogy... bare with me :)
There 3 different rooms filled with workers. There's 10 men in each of the first two rooms and 2 in the last. Ammonia balls are thrown into the first room and the 10 men are able to pick them up and throw them into the next room so that they never build up. They convert to nitrite on the way through the doorway. The 10 workers in the next room are able to keep up the pace in picking up the nitrite balls and throwing them into the next room. They convert to nitrate on the way through the doorway. There's only 2 workers in the last room and they are picking up the nitrate balls as fast as they can and throwing them out the window (where they convert to nitrogen gas) but the nitrate balls are building up around their feet.
It does not "create" nitrate, but it can be a poor filter if you are looking for a good way to process nitrate.... will in processing more than the men in room number 3 can handle.
The reason the rich oxygen environment of a trickle filter has such issues in converting the nitrate is because the bacteria involved primarily in that process is ANaerobic and there's just not many areas on bioballs that is conducive to the colonization of anaerobic bacteria. The nitrosomonos and nitrobacters are aerobic.
But if we fed less, had less fish and cleaned more/better there wouldn't be so much ammonia to convert to nitrite to convert to nitrate. The problem isn't with our filtration, it's with our heavy hand, our mad stocking schemes and our complacency.
The answer to high nitrates is always, feed less, stock less, clean more. period.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Turn off all filtering - overflows to sumps etc when feeding. Most do leave internal flow pumps on to make the "bait" - food - more attractive to the fish, and circulate the smaller particles to the coral so they can "eat" too
Henry I must honestly say I do not see this very important point stressed often.
I think I may have not made my intention for starting this thread easy to understand so I will give it another shot.
The only way bio-balls can cause a nitrate problem is by accumulation of uneaten food. We all understand how and why. My thought was too simply eliminate the delivery of this uneaten food to the bio-ball area. Keep the food in our tanks, let our livestock ingest the food and introduce ammonia into our tanks in the water column. It is IMO much easier to judge if you are over feeding your inhabitance if all the food you introduce stays in your tank. Without losing any food via your overflow boxes you will automatically feed less. Less food less nitrate production less production less taxing on our denitrification
 

cranberry

Active Member
I think we are saying the same thing... well the basis of it.
I'm not saying bioballs add to nitrates... I'm saying they are an inefficient environment if one is looking to process nitrates.
Rubble in the bioball chamber is actually better. There are deep areas of the rock that can colonize anaerobic bacteria better (which is the bacteria that processes the nitrates), thereby encouraging their populations to grow so that the filter is able to keep of with the efficiency of the first 2 groups (the first 2 being the aerobic bacteria that process the ammonia and nitrite).
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
What really really needs to be understood is this. Bio-balls cannot now or ever have or ever will be able to do any denitrification what’s so ever. Their bad rap is that they accumulate organics that have not broken down to ammonia yet. The continued build up then become the prime source of ammonia Which ultimately results in nitrates unless physically removed by cleaning. I am proposing stopping this build up before it happens
 

cranberry

Active Member
I don't know if I'm sure what we are discussing.... lol.
Can I have the debate question again sir.... I got the topic but I think I'm missing the finer point.
 

spanko

Active Member
Bio balls do exactly what they are supposed to do and do it efficiently. The hous bacteria becasue they have so much surface are in such a small package. The bacter are the nitrifyers. All of the conversion ends up as nitrates, all dressed up and no where to go. Period. End of story. They do what they are supposed to do. Our lack of maintenance is the cause of the buildup of nitrates.
What we are discussing, if I am correct, is the input of the protein that ultimately is the fuel for the creation of nitrates. Reduce the fuel and you will reduce the nitrates.
 

salt210

Active Member
so we should add timers to the main pumps in our systems to keep the food from entering the area in the filter of which they will get trapped and start to decompose? the only time as of right now that I shut my pump down is when I am feeding the dusters.
 

cranberry

Active Member
Definitely don't let the food go in the overflow, not unless you have something in the sump you want to feed and no mechanical filtration in catch it up.
That's why I use that pump-turner-offer.....thing. I use to turn it off manually, but I forgot to turn it back on a few too many times. The thingy above was just a twist, off went the pump to come back on a little later. I fed phyto so I really wanted the pump off for awhile.
 

meowzer

Moderator
Do you guys use the overflow filters? I have a duo overflow, and I have two of those foam filters that slip in the outbox (??) I have 2 sets, and change them every other day (sometimes 3..lol)...mostly 2 though...
 
G

gwhunter

Guest
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3119538
Matt we maybe getting a little off track here. My idea is to stop the uneaten food from ever getting to our sump
Sorry, not trying to hi jack the thread. I thought the lr rubble instead of bio balls and a bit of macro algea was supposed to deal with the nitrates. Then once the macro has tied up the nitrates you remove some. How does the rock play into this? So are you hypothisising that turning off the pump and cleaning the balls religiously should have a definate reduction in Nitrates?
Matt
 

spanko

Active Member
You have now understood the meaning of the thread sir. Let no dead and or decaying proteins into the bioballs, keep them clean, they will not convert the matter into nitrates.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by GWhunter
http:///forum/post/3119676
Sorry, not trying to hi jack the thread. I thought the lr rubble instead of bio balls and a bit of macro algea was supposed to deal with the nitrates. Then once the macro has tied up the nitrates you remove some. How does the rock play into this? So are you hypothisising that turning off the pump and cleaning the balls religiously should have a definate reduction in Nitrates?
Matt
Deal is a very subjective word IMO rubble or LR will not suffice as your only way of denitrification. but thats for another post.
And my original idea way back when was to turn off anything that can influence uneaten food to wind up in an area occupied by bio-balls or any filter media for that matter
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
keep them clean,
Henry I cant oh yes I can
no I cant oh yes I can
ok ok I can Henry As you saintly grandmother surly told you. Keep your balls clean and you tank will thank you for it
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Why not just set up a natural filtration system instead of worrying about bioballs? No need to turn off pumps then. I just don't think its good to be turning off pumps twice a day or so.
I can see bioballs in the pre-live rock, pre-live sand era, but those days are over. There is no point to bioballs anymore. It needs to go on the shelf next to the undergravel filter and the crushed coral.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
I just don't think its good to be turning off pumps twice a day or so
Why not
I can see bioballs in the pre-live rock, pre-live sand era, but those days are over. There is no point to bioballs anymore. It needs to go on the shelf next to the undergravel filter and the crushed coral.
What platform for nitrifying bacteria that gives you the best bang for your buck do you suggest is better then bio balls
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/3119845
Live sand.
So if you take the square footage of the base of your tank, which is really what you are talking about, and compare it to the bio balls you place in your sump I believe the bio balls have the greater area for nitrifying bacteria to colonize on. Bioballs in an area of constant flow of nutrient rich water will propagate the bacteria faster and grow better colonies then on sand, lets not forget the items we put on our sand. They brake up flow, there is no way we can feed bacteria on sand as well as we can on bio balls
 
Top