Tank with ich, testing No-Ich
- Thread starter lroberts
- Start date
lroberts
Member
Correct me if I am wrong however from what I have been reading on ONLY this product it claims to be safe for the filter bed so I would say it would be fine but I could be wrong. I use a skimmer and have live sand myself and thats one thing that stuck out to me was it said... "It does not damage the filter bed."
This is from the product...
SeaChem Cupramine ™ effectively eradicates ectoparasite of both freshwater and marine fish. It has all the advantages of copper sulfate and chelated copper, but not the disadvantages. Like copper sulfate, it is fully ionic and effective at low concentrations. The cupric (Cu+2) charge is fully active. Like chelates, it is safe for fish and is not precipitated in the filter bed. Unlike both, there is more than a 4x concentration gap between the minimal therpeutic dose and the toxic dose. Unlike copper salts, it is stable in the aquarium, and, unlike chelates, it is easily removed by chemical filtration. Unlike other copper products, it is both highly effective and safe in freshwater as well as marine water. It does not damage the filter bed. Cupramine™ contains 10,000 mg/L of copper and 100 mL treats over 500 gallons. Do not use in conjuction with ParaGuard™. Test for copper with our MultTest: Copper™ kit. Marine or freshwater use.
Caution: Turn off your UV sterilizer while treating with Cupramine. UV will break up the ionic bond in Cuprimine; causing it to be much more toxic
This is from the product...
SeaChem Cupramine ™ effectively eradicates ectoparasite of both freshwater and marine fish. It has all the advantages of copper sulfate and chelated copper, but not the disadvantages. Like copper sulfate, it is fully ionic and effective at low concentrations. The cupric (Cu+2) charge is fully active. Like chelates, it is safe for fish and is not precipitated in the filter bed. Unlike both, there is more than a 4x concentration gap between the minimal therpeutic dose and the toxic dose. Unlike copper salts, it is stable in the aquarium, and, unlike chelates, it is easily removed by chemical filtration. Unlike other copper products, it is both highly effective and safe in freshwater as well as marine water. It does not damage the filter bed. Cupramine™ contains 10,000 mg/L of copper and 100 mL treats over 500 gallons. Do not use in conjuction with ParaGuard™. Test for copper with our MultTest: Copper™ kit. Marine or freshwater use.
Caution: Turn off your UV sterilizer while treating with Cupramine. UV will break up the ionic bond in Cuprimine; causing it to be much more toxic
spanko
Active Member
This is an excerpt from an article and Q&A on reefs org. by Albert Thiel
I have an ick problem, I have been dosing with copper for 18 days now and I tested my water high ammonia high nitrates high nitrites and low pH of course killing me. So I think I broke the cycle. What should I do? I put a biobag into my wetdry to initiate the bacterial growth and added a bacterial supplement. The tank is 125 gallons and I have a wetdry for 150 gallons a protein skimmer and a 25 watt UV.
Sounds like you are going to have to recycle the tank I am afraid The copper destroyed the bacteria and now you will have to re establish a bio filter plus rebalance the water quality. That is the problem with copper. It may cure the fish temporarily but it can create havoc in the tank as you experineced. My recommendation is to take the remaining fish out and recycle and then reacclimate them AT
I have an ick problem, I have been dosing with copper for 18 days now and I tested my water high ammonia high nitrates high nitrites and low pH of course killing me. So I think I broke the cycle. What should I do? I put a biobag into my wetdry to initiate the bacterial growth and added a bacterial supplement. The tank is 125 gallons and I have a wetdry for 150 gallons a protein skimmer and a 25 watt UV.
Sounds like you are going to have to recycle the tank I am afraid The copper destroyed the bacteria and now you will have to re establish a bio filter plus rebalance the water quality. That is the problem with copper. It may cure the fish temporarily but it can create havoc in the tank as you experineced. My recommendation is to take the remaining fish out and recycle and then reacclimate them AT
lroberts
Member
It says dosing with copper... The question is what product?
From the product...
"It has all the advantages of copper sulfate and chelated copper, but not the disadvantages. Like copper sulfate, it is fully ionic and effective at low concentrations. The cupric (Cu+2) charge is fully active. Like chelates, it is safe for fish and is not precipitated in the filter bed."
"It does not damage the filter bed."
They do not all work the same at least thats what I got from what I have been reading.
From the product...
"It has all the advantages of copper sulfate and chelated copper, but not the disadvantages. Like copper sulfate, it is fully ionic and effective at low concentrations. The cupric (Cu+2) charge is fully active. Like chelates, it is safe for fish and is not precipitated in the filter bed."
"It does not damage the filter bed."
They do not all work the same at least thats what I got from what I have been reading.
U
usirchchris
Guest
I have used Cupramine on 2 tanks...Dt's minus the rock and it does not damage the filter bed. I have also done one with rock in it, and it did not cause an ammonia spike. In regards to your test kit LRoberts...your test kit may be fine. I have always had to add WAY more copper than the recommended procedure on the bottle to get to the proper levels...even contacted seachem because I was convinced I had a bad bottle
Especially if you have sand or rock left in the tank. The rock and sand will absorb alot! I just keep adding once every couple of hours till I start to get a reading...but once you do get a reading go with what the instructions say...half one day, wait a day then do the other half. This has worked for me. Then just have patience. This is not something that will disapear in a couple of days. You have to keep in mind that not all of the parasite is at the same stage in their life cycle, and copper kills during the free swimming stage. Good luck friend
lroberts
Member
Yep thanks for the tips!
Last night I decided to hit the tank with the 1-2-3 punch. I raised the temp a bit and then very slowly through the night start to lower my salt levels. At last late late late last night through a very slow process got the salt down to 09. At that point I also very slowly got the copper to where it should be. You was not joking! It took way more then what they say on the bottle to get it to the right levels but I think they consider people using a empty tank with a clear bottom. When you take the rock and sand you are right... It needs to be much more.
In any case copper is where it should be now. The fish seem to be doing just fine.
I have one that I am not sure will make it or not but time will tell.
I will keep you all posted.
Last night I decided to hit the tank with the 1-2-3 punch. I raised the temp a bit and then very slowly through the night start to lower my salt levels. At last late late late last night through a very slow process got the salt down to 09. At that point I also very slowly got the copper to where it should be. You was not joking! It took way more then what they say on the bottle to get it to the right levels but I think they consider people using a empty tank with a clear bottom. When you take the rock and sand you are right... It needs to be much more.
In any case copper is where it should be now. The fish seem to be doing just fine.
I have one that I am not sure will make it or not but time will tell.
I will keep you all posted.
U
usirchchris
Guest
For hyposalinity most people lower the salt to .009 over a 48 hour period, but I have read others doing it in a shorter time, and even read some public aquarium (can't remember which one) would put new transfers directly from natural sea salt levels and transfer them to water at .009 with no ill effects according to them. I have read that it is dangerous to run hypo and copper at the same time...that it can make the copper toxic to the fish. Not sure if it has something to do with the lack of osmotic pressure
also not sure how long it takes to effect, and also not sure if this is true as I have never tried it, but I guess you will be our test subject
U
usirchchris
Guest
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3047569
If such as rapid change in salinity is so detrimental (high to low), why don't we worry about freshwater dips?
I don't think the quick change will necessarily kill the fish, but is thought to be extremely stressful if done too quickly. While some view freshwater dips as a method of prevention, many consider it too stressful, and use it as a last resort only. You don't want to stress a fish further that already has a weakened system. I really have no idea how stressful it really is, but have seen fish go lifeless when put in a freshwater dip, so I can only assume.
http:///forum/post/3047569
If such as rapid change in salinity is so detrimental (high to low), why don't we worry about freshwater dips?
I don't think the quick change will necessarily kill the fish, but is thought to be extremely stressful if done too quickly. While some view freshwater dips as a method of prevention, many consider it too stressful, and use it as a last resort only. You don't want to stress a fish further that already has a weakened system. I really have no idea how stressful it really is, but have seen fish go lifeless when put in a freshwater dip, so I can only assume.
windlasher
Member
Originally Posted by meowzer
http:///forum/post/3044663
HEY...I knew someone who ate a fresh garlic clove to fight colds....and it worked..well for him
this reminds me of that episode of the beverly hillbillies where granny had a cure for the common cold and Drysdale went nuts wanting to market it until he realized that her cure was a bowl of soup and 4 or 5 days in bed while drinking lots of liquids...
http:///forum/post/3044663
HEY...I knew someone who ate a fresh garlic clove to fight colds....and it worked..well for him
this reminds me of that episode of the beverly hillbillies where granny had a cure for the common cold and Drysdale went nuts wanting to market it until he realized that her cure was a bowl of soup and 4 or 5 days in bed while drinking lots of liquids...
windlasher
Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3047569
If such as rapid change in salinity is so detrimental (high to low), why don't we worry about freshwater dips?
yeah...
that's just ONE of the things I don't understand about this hobby.
Drastic changes in salinity are bad.... but dip your fish.
http:///forum/post/3047569
If such as rapid change in salinity is so detrimental (high to low), why don't we worry about freshwater dips?
yeah...
that's just ONE of the things I don't understand about this hobby.
Drastic changes in salinity are bad.... but dip your fish.
cranberry
Active Member
Originally Posted by usirchchris
http:///forum/post/3047635
IWhile some view freshwater dips as a method of prevention, many consider it too stressful, and use it as a last resort only.
I'm sure people have changed their minds, but this is still the number one commonly used preventative/treatment in this hobby.
I'm sure it is stressful. Any change in a fishes world is stressful. But how much stress? Enough stress to negate doing it more quickly? Maybe we could find data on coritsol levels and hyposalinity. I know there peeps put there that love to google. And I know there are good articles out there because we were doing some research on stress and clove oil a couple years back. And I'm not talking advice from forums, or your buddy, but some journal articles with data... that would be one of the more helpful ways to look at it. Some believe it actually brings relief fish that are struggling because their bodies have to work less hard to process the lower salinity water.
And just to clarify, this argument only goes from normal salinity to hypo... not from hypo to normal.... just making sure for anyone new.
http:///forum/post/3047635
IWhile some view freshwater dips as a method of prevention, many consider it too stressful, and use it as a last resort only.
I'm sure people have changed their minds, but this is still the number one commonly used preventative/treatment in this hobby.
I'm sure it is stressful. Any change in a fishes world is stressful. But how much stress? Enough stress to negate doing it more quickly? Maybe we could find data on coritsol levels and hyposalinity. I know there peeps put there that love to google. And I know there are good articles out there because we were doing some research on stress and clove oil a couple years back. And I'm not talking advice from forums, or your buddy, but some journal articles with data... that would be one of the more helpful ways to look at it. Some believe it actually brings relief fish that are struggling because their bodies have to work less hard to process the lower salinity water.
And just to clarify, this argument only goes from normal salinity to hypo... not from hypo to normal.... just making sure for anyone new.
U
usirchchris
Guest
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3047793
I'm sure people have changed their minds, but this is still the number one commonly used preventative/treatment in this hobby.
This is due to economical reasons and especially the current economy...not by choice
http:///forum/post/3047793
I'm sure people have changed their minds, but this is still the number one commonly used preventative/treatment in this hobby.
This is due to economical reasons and especially the current economy...not by choice
outsdr2
Member
hello I ahve decided to go with copper also. can i transfer my inverts to my reef tank without cross contaminating?LFS says yes that the ich is either freeswimming or on a fish. I also want to move a super large piece of LR with a anemone to my reef tank while I medicate my DT. any idea how I can safely do a transfer? thanks
U
usirchchris
Guest
Originally Posted by outsdr2
http:///forum/post/3048607
hello I ahve decided to go with copper also. can i transfer my inverts to my reef tank without cross contaminating?LFS says yes that the ich is either freeswimming or on a fish. I also want to move a super large piece of LR with a anemone to my reef tank while I medicate my DT. any idea how I can safely do a transfer? thanks
You run the risk of cross cantamination moving anything wet from one tank to another. It only takes one little parasite to spawn 100's. It could transfer in the water, or it may have attached itself to an invert. If there are no fish in the reef tank you have nothing to worry about. Even if ich is transfered...with no fish it cannot live.
http:///forum/post/3048607
hello I ahve decided to go with copper also. can i transfer my inverts to my reef tank without cross contaminating?LFS says yes that the ich is either freeswimming or on a fish. I also want to move a super large piece of LR with a anemone to my reef tank while I medicate my DT. any idea how I can safely do a transfer? thanks
You run the risk of cross cantamination moving anything wet from one tank to another. It only takes one little parasite to spawn 100's. It could transfer in the water, or it may have attached itself to an invert. If there are no fish in the reef tank you have nothing to worry about. Even if ich is transfered...with no fish it cannot live.
outsdr2
Member
Originally Posted by usirchchris
http:///forum/post/3048610
You run the risk of cross cantamination moving anything wet from one tank to another. It only takes one little parasite to spawn 100's. It could transfer in the water, or it may have attached itself to an invert. If there are no fish in the reef tank you have nothing to worry about. Even if ich is transfered...with no fish it cannot live.
I do have fish in my reef tank. so if I put all the fish in my 350 and the inverts in the 90 and as long as the reef tank remains fallow for 8 weeks everything should be ick free correct? Also a report from LRoberts on how his treatment is going? Is the fish that was in trouble ok? thanks
http:///forum/post/3048610
You run the risk of cross cantamination moving anything wet from one tank to another. It only takes one little parasite to spawn 100's. It could transfer in the water, or it may have attached itself to an invert. If there are no fish in the reef tank you have nothing to worry about. Even if ich is transfered...with no fish it cannot live.
I do have fish in my reef tank. so if I put all the fish in my 350 and the inverts in the 90 and as long as the reef tank remains fallow for 8 weeks everything should be ick free correct? Also a report from LRoberts on how his treatment is going? Is the fish that was in trouble ok? thanks
deejeff442
Active Member
ist got done with hypo 5 weeks.
put the rock back in 3 days ago and ich on my tangs last night.
hypo is a crock imo.
now i have to take all the rock back out and go get some copper.
i have read a few post of where people did hypo and it came back a few days after raising the salinity.
i think the stuff goes dorment then reappears after the salt is raised.
copper has been proven to work for a long time.
hypo=5 weeks
copper=3 weeks.
there are some great ways to remover copper now .
even with it seeping into the silicone after running copper removing medias i think in a few months the traces of copper are so low the corals and inverts wont have a problem with it.
put the rock back in 3 days ago and ich on my tangs last night.
hypo is a crock imo.
now i have to take all the rock back out and go get some copper.
i have read a few post of where people did hypo and it came back a few days after raising the salinity.
i think the stuff goes dorment then reappears after the salt is raised.
copper has been proven to work for a long time.
hypo=5 weeks
copper=3 weeks.
there are some great ways to remover copper now .
even with it seeping into the silicone after running copper removing medias i think in a few months the traces of copper are so low the corals and inverts wont have a problem with it.
U
usirchchris
Guest
Originally Posted by outsdr2
http:///forum/post/3048767
I do have fish in my reef tank. so if I put all the fish in my 350 and the inverts in the 90 and as long as the reef tank remains fallow for 8 weeks everything should be ick free correct? Also a report from LRoberts on how his treatment is going? Is the fish that was in trouble ok? thanks
If the 90 is the reef tank yes...if you take all the fish out (leave it emtpy for 6 weeks) the parasite will die off as it has nothing to feed on. However, when you transfer the infected fish into the 350 you are then introducing it into that tank. Don't think you would want to treat ich in a 350, that would take alot of copper, or a ton of water changes for hypo. If you do not rid the fish of the parasite you will re-introduce it to the 90 as soon as you put them back in.
http:///forum/post/3048767
I do have fish in my reef tank. so if I put all the fish in my 350 and the inverts in the 90 and as long as the reef tank remains fallow for 8 weeks everything should be ick free correct? Also a report from LRoberts on how his treatment is going? Is the fish that was in trouble ok? thanks
If the 90 is the reef tank yes...if you take all the fish out (leave it emtpy for 6 weeks) the parasite will die off as it has nothing to feed on. However, when you transfer the infected fish into the 350 you are then introducing it into that tank. Don't think you would want to treat ich in a 350, that would take alot of copper, or a ton of water changes for hypo. If you do not rid the fish of the parasite you will re-introduce it to the 90 as soon as you put them back in.