Texas man cleared of shooting neighbor's robber

stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2673192
So, if I understand this right, Horn, against advice, left his house, put himself in jeopardy and then shot to death two people who were trespassing on his property after burglarizing another property. I have closely examined Texas law (tongue firmly in cheek here), and cannot find that the death penalty is lawful for trespass or burglary. That's why we have cops (who, remember, were on scene at the time of the killings) and courts - so that the punishment fits the crime and not some person's vision, rooted in the wild west, of crime and punishment. I don't doubt that the grand jury returned no true bill - no elected prosecutor would seek to prosecute Horn and expect to see his career thrive, but Horn sought out an opportunity that led to his killing two people. He is not a murder, but is surely an idiot. If a burglar were leaving my property I wouldn't want Bob, my neighbor, killing them. Just call the police, get a license number, whatever, but don't risk your life! And don't kill anyone! My silverware isn't worth another person's life.
You are looking at this all wrong, I don't think people are arguing that what Joe did was punishment for robbing. Of course there is nothing, in my house besides my wife that is worth killing someone over. However, if someone was in my house, I'd feel like myself and wife were in danger, and I'd do whatever it takes to eliminate the threat.
Mr. Horn went out there with the intent of stopping the thiefs and holding them till the police could arrive. Unfortunately at that point the thiefs, regardless of intent, acted in a threatening way to Mr. Horn. And at that point Mr. Horn in fear of his own life, fired his gun.
This isn't vigilante action. This isn't Mr. Horn passing judgement and hanging them. This was simply a scared old man, who was trying to do what he could to help the situation. Two MORONS running at a guy with a gun, and well, these men won't be breaking into any more houses anymore.
It is like running from the cops you just don't do it.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2673192
So, if I understand this right, Horn, against advice, left his house, put himself in jeopardy and then shot to death two people who were trespassing on his property after burglarizing another property. I have closely examined Texas law (tongue firmly in cheek here), and cannot find that the death penalty is lawful for trespass or burglary. That's why we have cops (who, remember, were on scene at the time of the killings) and courts - so that the punishment fits the crime and not some person's vision, rooted in the wild west, of crime and punishment. I don't doubt that the grand jury returned no true bill - no elected prosecutor would seek to prosecute Horn and expect to see his career thrive, but Horn sought out an opportunity that led to his killing two people. He is not a murder, but is surely an idiot. If a burglar were leaving my property I wouldn't want Bob, my neighbor, killing them. Just call the police, get a license number, whatever, but don't risk your life! And don't kill anyone! My silverware isn't worth another person's life.
One plain clothes cop pulled up just as things came down so the cops were not on the scene until it hit the fan. As far as the death penatly goes it really has nothing to do with this. Allowable use of lethal force is the real issue at play. In this case the guy was justified in the first shooting and while I wouldn't consider the second murder if I was on the jury I would have had to vote in favor of manslaughter if it had been charged.
 
crimzy

crimzy

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2673192
So, if I understand this right, Horn, against advice, left his house, put himself in jeopardy and then shot to death two people who were trespassing on his property after burglarizing another property. I have closely examined Texas law (tongue firmly in cheek here), and cannot find that the death penalty is lawful for trespass or burglary. That's why we have cops (who, remember, were on scene at the time of the killings) and courts - so that the punishment fits the crime and not some person's vision, rooted in the wild west, of crime and punishment. I don't doubt that the grand jury returned no true bill - no elected prosecutor would seek to prosecute Horn and expect to see his career thrive, but Horn sought out an opportunity that led to his killing two people. He is not a murder, but is surely an idiot. If a burglar were leaving my property I wouldn't want Bob, my neighbor, killing them. Just call the police, get a license number, whatever, but don't risk your life! And don't kill anyone! My silverware isn't worth another person's life.
I agree with the above. Self defense is, and should be, very limited. A person is only entitled to use force against an IMMINENT threat, and even then can only use the amount of force proportional to protect himself against the threat. In other words, to kill in self defense, the perceived threat must be potentially deadly. Beyond this there is a duty to retreat if one is able to do so prior to using force. The jurisdictions are inconsistant, though, as to whether the duty to retreat applies in one's own home.
Having a gun in the home is quite a responsibility. It is not a license to start shooting every time you feel threatened. There must be consequences to using a weapon recklessly. Similarly, a person has no right to kill the person vandalizing, harassing my family member or trying to start a fight. This guy may not be a murderer, but if he was using his gun recklessly, then there should be some charges, IMO.
 
jmick

jmick

Active Member
I'm sorry, I have listened to the 911 call and he was not scared at all. If anything, he was very angry an mad at the thought of the two men getting away with a bag of loot. Here is a part of the transcript from the call.
Here's an excerpt from the transcript of Joe Horn's 911 call:
Horn: He’s coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I’m sorry, but he’s coming out the window.
Dispatcher: Don’t, don’t — don’t go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?
Horn: They just stole something. I’m going after them, I’m sorry.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: I ain’t letting them get away with this s--t. They stole something. They got a bag of something.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside the house.
Horn: I’m doing this.
Dispatcher: Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.
Horn: I’m sorry. This ain’t right, buddy.
Dispatcher: You’re going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don’t care what you think.
Horn: You want to make a bet?
Dispatcher: OK? Stay in the house.
Horn: They’re getting away!
Dispatcher: That’s all right. Property’s not worth killing someone over, OK?
Horn: [curses]
Dispatcher: Don’t go out the house. Don’t be shooting nobody. I know you’re pissed and you’re frustrated, but don’t do it.
Horn: They got a bag of loot.
Dispatcher: OK. How big is the bag ... which way are they going?
Horn: I’m going outside. I’ll find out.
Dispatcher: I don’t want you going outside, Mr. Horn.
Horn: Well, here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I’m going.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: [yelling] Move, you’re dead!
[Sound of shots being fired]
 
crimzy

crimzy

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2673218
I'm sorry, I have listened to the 911 call and he was not scared at all. If anything, he was very angry an mad at the thought of the two men getting away with a bag of loot. Here is a part of the transcript from the call.
Here's an excerpt from the transcript of Joe Horn's 911 call:
Horn: He’s coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I’m sorry, but he’s coming out the window.
Dispatcher: Don’t, don’t — don’t go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?
Horn: They just stole something. I’m going after them, I’m sorry.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: I ain’t letting them get away with this s--t. They stole something. They got a bag of something.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside the house.
Horn: I’m doing this.
Dispatcher: Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.
Horn: I’m sorry. This ain’t right, buddy.
Dispatcher: You’re going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don’t care what you think.
Horn: You want to make a bet?
Dispatcher: OK? Stay in the house.
Horn: They’re getting away!
Dispatcher: That’s all right. Property’s not worth killing someone over, OK?
Horn: [curses]
Dispatcher: Don’t go out the house. Don’t be shooting nobody. I know you’re pissed and you’re frustrated, but don’t do it.
Horn: They got a bag of loot.
Dispatcher: OK. How big is the bag ... which way are they going?
Horn: I’m going outside. I’ll find out.
Dispatcher: I don’t want you going outside, Mr. Horn.
Horn: Well, here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I’m going.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: [yelling] Move, you’re dead!
[Sound of shots being fired]
If the above is accurate then this does not show a man who feels that there is an imminent threat to his life, (while in the safety of his house). This sounds like a guy who was going to use deadly force, if necessary, to prevent a property crime. A citizen does not have the right to do this.
 
rylan1

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefreak29
http:///forum/post/2672176
theres that what if again. your right it isnt murder itsmanslaughter and very very poor judgment.
your forgetting some usefull fact one: the dispatcher repeatedly told him to stay put, the criminals would most likely have to run in his direction to get away,one guy was shot not once in the back but twice,the cop ducked for his life so he should no longer be a credible witness.
i really want to know if people would feel the same way if these were a couple of suburban teens
So wait a minute... a cop was actually on the scene to have to duck when the shots were fired? Also you can hear him saying "freeze" on tape... and there was less than a second ehen the shots were fired... I can't believe the robbers had time to approach (rush) him, and then had time to turn ... my opinion is he approached them from behind... said freeze and shot.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2673238
If the above is accurate then this does not show a man who feels that there is an imminent threat to his life, (while in the safety of his house). This sounds like a guy who was going to use deadly force, if necessary, to prevent a property crime. A citizen does not have the right to do this.

They do in Texas
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Hold on, many of you guys are argueing against the law in Texas. This would be same as arguig against the law in California that Gay marriage is legal. Doesn't matter what your belief is, it is still the law.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
A little more info is trickling down about this. I can't believe the lack of competent reporting on this.
Under Texas law it is allowable to use lethal force to protect a 3rd parties property.
"§ 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON’S PROPERTY.
A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or
(2) the actor reasonably believes that: (A) the third person has requested his protection of the land or property; (B) he has a legal duty to protect the third person's land or property; or (C) the third person whose land or property he uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent, or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care. Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900"
Because Horn and the robbers were on his property when the confrontation occured the newly passed Castle Doctrine law comes into play and he had a right to shoot them rather than reteat when he felt threatened.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2673218
I'm sorry, I have listened to the 911 call and he was not scared at all. If anything, he was very angry an mad at the thought of the two men getting away with a bag of loot. Here is a part of the transcript from the call.
Here's an excerpt from the transcript of Joe Horn's 911 call:
Horn: He’s coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I’m sorry, but he’s coming out the window.
Dispatcher: Don’t, don’t — don’t go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?
Horn: They just stole something. I’m going after them, I’m sorry.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: I ain’t letting them get away with this s--t. They stole something. They got a bag of something.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside the house.
Horn: I’m doing this.
Dispatcher: Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.
Horn: I’m sorry. This ain’t right, buddy.
Dispatcher: You’re going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don’t care what you think.
Horn: You want to make a bet?
Dispatcher: OK? Stay in the house.
Horn: They’re getting away!
Dispatcher: That’s all right. Property’s not worth killing someone over, OK?
Horn: [curses]
Dispatcher: Don’t go out the house. Don’t be shooting nobody. I know you’re pissed and you’re frustrated, but don’t do it.
Horn: They got a bag of loot.
Dispatcher: OK. How big is the bag ... which way are they going?
Horn: I’m going outside. I’ll find out.
Dispatcher: I don’t want you going outside, Mr. Horn.
Horn: Well, here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I’m going.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: [yelling] Move, you’re dead!
[Sound of shots being fired]
I've heard the whole thing several times, that guy was scared. There is no doubt in my mind.
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Those of you who support this shooting seem to feel that it is part of a "Texan" independence and toughness that produces greater safety. Yet, according to the FBI, Dallas has a higher rate of property and violent crime than that home of the liberal - it must be the victim's fault - city, New York, New York. Ironic, huh?
This may not be a perfect comparison, but recently a man on Long Island was convicted for killing a teenager who was on the street in front of his house threatening to kill his son, with whom he had had a confrontation earlier in the evening. The father's defense was that he feared for the safety of his family, but the law says that it has to be imminent danger, and the distance to the street was interpreted as meaning that the threat was not so imminent that deadly force (a shotgun, I think) was called for.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2673327
Those of you who support this shooting seem to feel that it is part of a "Texan" independence and toughness that produces greater safety. Yet, according to the FBI, Dallas has a higher rate of property and violent crime than that home of the liberal - it must be the victim's fault - city, New York, New York. Ironic, huh?
This may not be a perfect comparison, but recently a man on Long Island was convicted for killing a teenager who was on the street in front of his house threatening to kill his son, with whom he had had a confrontation earlier in the evening. The father's defense was that he feared for the safety of his family, but the law says that it has to be imminent danger, and the distance to the street was interpreted as meaning that the threat was not so imminent that deadly force (a shotgun, I think) was called for.
As much of a fan of statistics that I am. I don't think that comparing dallas to NYC and saying there is a lower crime rate doesn't reflect on the effectiveness or lack of gun control and usage laws. Maybe if you use all of texas vs all of ny.
I can turn around and say DC has a handgun well had a gun ban and that had the highest murder rate in the nation.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2673327
Those of you who support this shooting seem to feel that it is part of a "Texan" independence and toughness that produces greater safety. Yet, according to the FBI, Dallas has a higher rate of property and violent crime than that home of the liberal - it must be the victim's fault - city, New York, New York. Ironic, huh?
Really? Because every list I look at places new york in the to fifteen cities and every Texas city listed is in the bottom 20.
Care to provide a link to these stats?
 
rylan1

rylan1

Active Member
I don't know.... even that property thing isn't right...
Remember the case where I guy shot a teenager for continuing to walk through his grass, even when he warned them to stop.... Stepping in someones yard shouldn't exactly have all the penalties as it would as if you were approaching someone's home or some valuable in the yard...
The neighbor and Horn's house could have been only a few feet from one another.... Think about all the rules and problems people have had with just fencing their property... Did the robber have one foot in , and the other out?
 
jennythebugg

jennythebugg

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2673348
Really? Because every list I look at places new york in the to fifteen cities and every Texas city listed is in the bottom 20.
Care to provide a link to these stats?
not to mention our crime rates went up post katrina
 
rylan1

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2673344
As much of a fan of statistics that I am. I don't think that comparing dallas to NYC and saying there is a lower crime rate doesn't reflect on the effectiveness or lack of gun control and usage laws. Maybe if you use all of texas vs all of ny.
I can turn around and say DC has a handgun well had a gun ban and that had the highest murder rate in the nation.

You can say that Texas has the highest Death Penalty rate... and I would say that Crime there isn't the lowest... so the penalty of death is not the greatest deterent
 
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