think the death penalty is ever appropriate for animal cruelty?

[ino]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2452965
I personally find your perception quite hypocritical. Kind and righteous, yet kill those who disagree.....
That was the whole point of the last line! Geez, no offense or anything, but talk about slow...
Sarcasm is lost on you.
And, btw, if the goal is killing, then you are wrong, it is the same thing. You can try and split hairs all you want, but when it comes down to it, that's what you're enjoying.
And you have done nothing but prove my point. Animals do NOT have an innate moral sense, but that does not mean that they don't deserve kind leadership. I am a firm believer in God, and He has given us dominion over all the animals. I take it to mean that, even though animals may be lower than me, I am to treat them as God treats me, with love, despite my faults.
And, c'mon, coyotes? Did you not even read my post? I already said that sometimes it IS necessary to kill animals to protect yourself and your loved ones. I'm not arguing that. You are simply trying to cover up for your comments by pointing out flaws in my argument that simply aren't there.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Pontius
http:///forum/post/2453358
I'm not a hunter, but that sounds pretty dumb to me. deer have extremely sensitive senses, so I think having the rotting corpse of a predator around would have the exact opposite effect. I think THAT would run the deer off.
They don't shoot the predators during deer season... But, take it from me, it happens a lot down here.
So, should Capital Punishment apply to them?

 

[ino]

Sorry, Pontius, I got a bit OT there. I do get riled sometimes by ignorance. Taking it back to the discussion at hand, if you kill animals like that for sport, or a weak reason that could be easily dodged, then yes, I believe you deserve the harshest punishment law can dish, because A) it's wrong, and B) you are going to progress to humans inevitably.

 

[mike22cha]

Originally Posted by salty blues
http:///forum/post/2450816
As long as human life is not valued, animal life certainly will not be.
Funny how Michael Vick is in jail for pitbull fighting, yet Kobe Bryant is not for being accused of ----?
It seems that more and more people are more conserned with animals than people.
I mean on this forum you get flamed for keeping fish in too small of tank(not saying I have anything wrong with saying they're wrong), it think I've seen more reaction about keeping a yellow tang in a 55g than someone's reaction to hearing about a person being killed or something terrible like that on the news.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Ino
http:///forum/post/2453407
... I believe you deserve the harshest punishment law can dish, because A) it's wrong, and B) you are going to progress to humans inevitably.
That might be a bit of a stretch... Again, I know a lot of kids around here that go camping on the weekends and "target" practice by shooting skunks, raccons, coyotes, opoosums, etc.
None of them are going to grow up to kill people.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Ino
http:///forum/post/2452913
...I am a vegetarian, not because I think animals have inalienable rights, but because I wish to be kind to the creatures over which I stand. They deserve a loving leader, just and righteous... and I try to come as close as I can. ...
While i respect anyone's choice to be vegetarian, it does go against Biblical teachings:
"9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
Acts chpt 10
And of course there are the multiple occasions where Jesus fed the crowds with fish.

 

[mike22cha]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2453425
While i respect anyone's choice to be vegetarian, it does go against Biblical teachings:
"9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
Acts chpt 10
And of course there are the multiple occasions where Jesus fed the crowds with fish.
I agree with eating meat, but I don't necessarily agree that the dream gives man the right to eat whatever/whenever he wants. Since I'm a Seventh Day Adventist, I follow the Mosiac guidelines to eating clean meat.
Not saying that "unclean" as we call it, meat is bad, just I don't see in the Bible where God gives us the right to eat whatever. I don't take Peter's dream literaly either.
Now if I'm on a deserted island, then I'll eat whatever to survive.
Sorry to go off-topic. Just my 2 cents.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by MIKE22cha
http:///forum/post/2453430
I agree with eating meat, but I don't necessarily agree that the dream gives man the right to eat whatever/whenever he wants. Since I'm a Seventh Day Adventist, I follow the Mosiac guidelines to eating clean meat.
Not saying that "unclean" as we call it, meat is bad, just I don't see in the Bible where God gives us the right to eat whatever. I don't take Peter's dream literaly either.
Now if I'm on a deserted island, then I'll eat whatever to survive.
Sorry to go off-topic. Just my 2 cents.
Hmm... I didn't know Seventh Day Adventists followed Mosiac guidelines. Sometime, at your leisure, I'd love a PM from ya with your denominations perspective on this. I didn't quote the whole chapter, but in the next couple of verses it goes into God telling us not to call any of His Creation "impure" .

 

[mike22cha]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2453444
Hmm... I didn't know Seventh Day Adventists followed Mosiac guidelines. Sometime, at your leisure, I'd love a PM from ya with your denominations perspective on this. I didn't quote the whole chapter, but in the next couple of verses it goes into God telling us not to call any of His Creation "impure" .
Hey I'd love to talk about my beliefs with you. I'll send you a PM. Actualy I'll look for a Seventh Day Adventist site that agrees more with my beliefs, because I don't necessarily believe everything they teach, but most of it I do.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by MIKE22cha
http:///forum/post/2453409
Funny how Michael Vick is in jail for pitbull fighting, yet Kobe Bryant is not for being accused of ----?
It seems that more and more people are more conserned with animals than people.
so Kobe Bryant should be in jail because some mental patient who worked front desk at a hotel he stayed at falsely accused him of ----? come on now, you surely could come up with a better example than that.

 

[itom37]

Truly sad. I am amazed every day by the things I hear people are capable of. My current most awful example is the people who microwaved their baby (I actually thing this has happened twice in few months). Do I think the baby seal clubbers should be put to death. Of course not. If you ask the right person, taking fish out of the ocean and putting them in fish tanks that are minute compared to their previous home and seeing most of them die due to improper conditions is animal cruelty. The seal clubber clubbed some seals because, for some reason or another, he wanted to. We risk the lives of fish because, well, we just want to. Obviously I'm not suggesting people in this hobby are transgressing ethical boundaries anywhere near those of seal clubber person, but none of our hands are clean.
I'm somewhat opposed to the death penalty simply because I think any possibility of making a mistake is unacceptable. We know that mistakes will and have happened with capitol (-al?) cases. So basically I think a death sentence can only come with several unbiased eye witnesses, extensive physical evidence, and a rather bad attitude on the part of the offender. Confoundingly I don't like the idea that so many tax dollars go towards housing criminals. This argument is inadequate as one in favor of the death penalty because so few inmates get executed compared to the whole prison population. My solution? Put em to work! Surely there are jobs we can compel them to do that would offset the costs of their incarceration.
So yeah, long story short: there's nothing you can do to an animal that I would consider reason enough to put a person to death. the transgression would have to be shown to have some sort of devastating effect on humanity and for that effect to have been realized by the transgressor. an example might be poisoning the world's oceans to kill all the fish so people would starve. imagine how much our tanks would then be worth!

 

[mike22cha]

Originally Posted by Pontius
http:///forum/post/2453469
so Kobe Bryant should be in jail because some mental patient who worked front desk at a hotel he stayed at falsely accused him of ----? come on now, you surely could come up with a better example than that.
No not saying that. But look how the public reacted at both of those situations.

 

[flricordia]

I agree that is senseless and they need to be punished, but there again how does the entimologist feel when we step on a spider or roach. It is considered an animal and alive. I am by no means condoning what they did and I would like to see people like that put away for a long time, but the animal kingdom has always suffered at the hands of humans whether slaughtered for food, sport, inapropriate care while in captivity or just because they BUG us,
I am in the south where I am always hearing of people killing all these rattlesnakes that crawl into their yards. I have done extensive research and have well over a thousand slides of snakes I have found in the field and only 10% were venomous rattlesnakes.
I hear grown men spouting about how macho they are because they were able to swerve on the road and run over a snake killing it or chop its head off with a shovel, jeeze, the poor creature doesn't even have arms, legs or even ears and we think them more dangerous then getting into the car and heading to work every morning on the freeway.
What about those people. To me snakes, turtles and amphibians mean just as much as I am sure seals mean to others.
Humans will be humans. Let's reserve the Death Penalty for the rapists, murderers and child molesters.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by itom37
http:///forum/post/2453470
... We know that mistakes will and have happened with capitol (-al?) cases. ..
I've heard that before, but I'm not aware of an actual example of this.

 

[ino]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2453425
While i respect anyone's choice to be vegetarian, it does go against Biblical teachings:
"9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
Acts chpt 10
And of course there are the multiple occasions where Jesus fed the crowds with fish.
I don't believe it goes against biblical teachings at all. I do not consider any meat unclean, nor do I consider it a sin to eat meat. But back in bible times, there was no factory farming. Now, the meat you eat is almost guaranteed to be from that of a horribly tortured animal. I know that some farmers care for their animals properly, but many don't, and I don't believe that God would support me eating meat that I know came from an animal who was tortured for that meat. I prefer to play it safe on this particular issue. Do no harm.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Originally Posted by Pontius
http:///forum/post/2453367
I ignored most of your post because it is just silly. but just to respond to the above quote, you said yourself that you enjoy killing wild animals just for the sake of killing. so THAT makes you a deviant in pretty much any social group in this country. and who said anything about PETA?? I eat meat, I fish, etc etc. but if you don't see the problem with killing 53 sea lions for no good reason, you really are a deviant. I don't think you have to be a militant animal lover to see that this kind of massacre is wrong.

You, Pontius are quite niave and unilateral in your thinking, you read whatever it is you want into what is put before you. To believe that I said I killed coyotes "just for the sake of killing" is absoultely not what I said. Had your simple, one sided mind been able to comprehend the rest of the text in my posts, you would see that there are other reasons for doing so. As well, I stated that I did not think that it was right.(killing of the seals) I believe that it is you who are a deviant as most any sane person would NOT agree with your logic of execution for what some might believe to be animal cruelty. It shows that you actually have a disregard for life. Yet, your guilty consience compells you to be otherwise. I said something about PETA because that is the logic that they practice. We have helped several animals that are in trouble around here. More so than what most people would do. As well as had the SPCA get involved when a locals horses were not being fed during the winter. But when a coyote runs through your back yard several times throughout the year, you would have a different stance. What exactly is it that you want to be done with these animals to protect your life and property? Relocate them to coyote Disney Land? You really should educate yourself on things before you take such a radical approach on them.
That was the whole point of the last line! Geez, no offense or anything, but talk about slow...
Sarcasm is lost on you.
And, btw, if the goal is killing, then you are wrong, it is the same thing. You can try and split hairs all you want, but when it comes down to it, that's what you're enjoying.
And you have done nothing but prove my point. Animals do NOT have an innate moral sense, but that does not mean that they don't deserve kind leadership. I am a firm believer in God, and He has given us dominion over all the animals. I take it to mean that, even though animals may be lower than me, I am to treat them as God treats me, with love, despite my faults.
And, c'mon, coyotes? Did you not even read my post? I already said that sometimes it IS necessary to kill animals to protect yourself and your loved ones. I'm not arguing that. You are simply trying to cover up for your comments by pointing out flaws in my argument that simply aren't there.
Ino, For someone who has such a conviction as you claim to have, you surely do not represent your religion very well. I dont believe there is anything in the Bible that condones your kind of behavior. And I mean COME ON, kind leadership, to wild animals. HOW EXACTLY do you lead a wild animal? This is just ludicrous. Go to Africa and try to explain that to few hungry Lions. You sir, are in a world unkown to most. I suppose animal sacrific was never condoned in the bible was it? WE EAT MEAT! We are here to rule the animals, which means we KILL animals. Many, if not all the disciples where fishermen. Were they collecting them for theirs aquariums? I suspect they ate them. Which means they had to kill them. Any one whos comments includes the taking of a human life as being acceptable for crimes other than those imposed against other human life is in itself flawed. I suggest you read your Bible more carefully and understand it. Jesus said, Let ye who has committed no sin cast the first stone. Be careful of those rocks you pick up.
BTW Did I metion that my buddies Pastor has gone with us on several occasions? He has a beautiful Bobcat mount in his office.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2453575
You, Pontius are quite niave and unilateral in your thinking, you read whatever it is you want into what is put before you. To believe that I said I killed coyotes "just for the sake of killing" is absoultely not what I said. Had your simple, one sided mind been able to comprehend the rest of the text in my posts, you would see that there are other reasons for doing so. As well, I stated that I did not think that it was right.(killing of the seals) I believe that it is you who are a deviant as most any sane person would NOT agree with your logic of execution for what some might believe to be animal cruelty. It shows that you actually have a disregard for life. Yet, your guilty consience compells you to be otherwise. I said something about PETA because that is the logic that they practice. We have helped several animals that are in trouble around here. More so than what most people would do. As well as had the SPCA get involved when a locals horses were not being fed during the winter. But when a coyote runs through your back yard several times throughout the year, you would have a different stance. What exactly is it that you want to be done with these animals to protect your life and property? Relocate them to coyote Disney Land? You really should educate yourself on things before you take such a radical approach on them.
here's your exact quote: "I shoot coyotes and bobcats for fur and fun. It's a great time." you even followed it up with a nice smilie icon to show how much of a great time it is. now, tell me how my "simple mind" misunderstood or read too much into what you said (btw, if you want to get into an insult contest with me, you should remove your "to catch a predator" portrait from your profile)? and you keep going on and on with the example of killing a single coyote that may be a threat to family or property. so once again, you're equating killing a single coyote who could be an actual threat to your life to killing 53 seals that are only a threat to some fish that you have no natural right to to begin with. so just as I've said 3 times now, you're taking common sense out of the equation.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by MIKE22cha
http:///forum/post/2453477
No not saying that. But look how the public reacted at both of those situations.

if I remember correctly, there was a strong public outcry about the ---- allegations. and he was arrested and charged. and when the truth came out that the girl was lying through her teeth, the charges were dropped.
just saying, I think the average child molestor who goes to court and gets away almost scott free would be a better example than the Kobe Bryant thing.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Where in that statement did it state that I take life just for the sake of taking it? That is what you read from it though isn't it? That I go out and say,Man I just want to kill something today, lets go! No, I said I kill coyotes for FUR and FUN, there are other reasons also, but mainly its fun. Maybe I should have used the word hunt instead. You assumed that this meant I like killing things. Because that is the part you find offensive, yet you disregard that I typed FUR, as well as...there are other reasons. If you hadn't disregarded those statements, common sense(as you like) would have told you that I was referring to hunting them. Now, whats in a word? If I say hunt, doesn't it mean that if I'm successful at it, it actually means kill?
This is Rhetoric, be careful what you subscribe too. You can spin something any way you like and the press does daily. There is no telling what happened to those seals. Possibly some weird act of nature caused this, it is BTw the Galapagos Islands. Not likely that it is, but at least a remote possibility.
You are the one who attacked me, calling me a social deviant , stemming from problems with women.
My point was that some, like yourself see that as animal cruelty without looking at the circumstances as a whole, but solely (as you state) from a common sense point of view. I never tried to equate the killing of one animal to the (apparently) senseless slaughtering of several seals. I stated that it was wrong. Your title to this thread is "Is the death penalty ever appropriate for animal cruelty". My post was a statement replying to the threads title. Which is the question at hand. I posted a reply you felt was offensive and so you attacked me, unwarranted BTW. Instead of attempting to engage me in a conversation which was appropriate to the thread, you simply attacked. And BTW P*&$%D Me off.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2453681
Where in that statement did it state that I take life just for the sake of taking it? That is what you read from it though isn't it? That I go out and say,Man I just want to kill something today, lets go! No, I said I kill coyotes for FUR and FUN, there are other reasons also, but mainly its fun. Maybe I should have used the word hunt instead. You assumed that this meant I like killing things. Because that is the part you find offensive, yet you disregard that I typed FUR, as well as...there are other reasons. If you hadn't disregarded those statements, common sense(as you like) would have told you that I was referring to hunting them. Now, whats in a word? If I say hunt, doesn't it mean that if I'm successful at it, it actually means kill?
This is Rhetoric, be careful what you subscribe too. You can spin something any way you like and the press does daily. There is no telling what happened to those seals. Possibly some weird act of nature caused this, it is BTw the Galapagos Islands. Not likely that it is, but at least a remote possibility.
You are the one who attacked me, calling me a social deviant , stemming from problems with women.
My point was that some, like yourself see that as animal cruelty without looking at the circumstances as a whole, but solely (as you state) from a common sense point of view. I never tried to equate the killing of one animal to the (apparently) senseless slaughtering of several seals. I stated that it was wrong. Your title to this thread is "Is the death penalty ever appropriate for animal cruelty". My post was a statement replying to the threads title. Which is the question at hand. I posted a reply you felt was offensive and so you attacked me, unwarranted BTW. Instead of attempting to engage me in a conversation which was appropriate to the thread, you simply attacked. And BTW P*&$%D Me off.
this is the gist of your initial post: I like to kill for fun, do you want to kill me?
now, if you think that's an attempt at a serious discussion, then please explain. you posted a dumb comment, I gave you an equally dumb reply because it looked that that was the kind of response you were after.
now, do I think human life is more important than a seal's life? yes. even one or two seals. or maybe even 53 seals. a NORMAL human life is worth more. but I don't think someone who would commit such an act as this would fall under the category of "normal", so yeah, I really think the perpetrator's life is less valuable than the 53 seals he killed. of course, you and others continue to equate killing 53 animals with killing one single animal while hunting or while the animal is preying on livestock, so of course you don't see the logic in the original question.