This is why I H A T E partisan politics...

[beaslbob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/180#post_3502693
It will take a decade to dig us out of the hole 0bama is digging. By 2016 we'll be 20 trillion in debt and lucky to have AA credit rating. Just the interest is going to bury us.
I call B S.
Our economy resonds very very quickly once released. And debt is paid off very quickly also.
the really really hard part in releasing it, stopping the nany state and repaying the debt.
But once done. then things happen very quickly.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/200#post_3502991
I call B S.
Our economy resonds very very quickly once released. And debt is paid off very quickly also.
the really really hard part in releasing it, stopping the nany state and repaying the debt.
But once done. then things happen very quickly.
Wake up and smell the coffee burning. Nearly half of the people in this country are on some sort of government aid and they vote for more as we just saw in the last two elections where an incompetent boob was elected president based on promising people stuff. Just getting someone elected who will change direction is a daunting task. Also there is no way in hell we can turn this around like we could have 50 years ago. Too much international competition. Our ace in the hole has always been utilizing our natural resources. The EPA has been stacked full of extremists to the point a couple in Idaho who got all the proper building permits for their lot in a subdivision had to spend thousands of dollars and a couple years in court because some fool at the EPA decided that despite there was no running or standing water on their property it was a wetlands and the people had to mitigate the property with plants and grasses. God forbid we should harvest timber or go after all the available oil and gas.

 

[reefraff]

Here's and example of how messed up things have become. You have Dianne Finstien complaining about it LOL!
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/11/29/feds-shutting-down-historic-marin-oyster-farm/

 

[darthtang aw]

Here's and example of how messed up things have become. You have Dianne Finstien complaining about it LOL!
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/11/29/feds-shutting-down-historic-marin-oyster-farm/
I never understood how people canput the livelihood of animals or trees above the livlihood the human species. How many years and how much money will it cost the taxpayers to turn this area back into a "wetland"....and is it worth putting people out of work for it?

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/200#post_3503057
I never understood how people canput the livelihood of animals or trees above the livlihood the human species. How many years and how much money will it cost the taxpayers to turn this area back into a "wetland"....and is it worth putting people out of work for it?
Go ahead and kill off every animal you see. It's called extinction. Remember back in the 1800's when buffalo was a thriving species? Look at them now. Sure, deforestation is the way to go. Look up the basics of how trees remove CO2 from our atmosphere. Oh right, greenhouse gases are a myth. How many years does it take for a sapling to grow into a 30 - 40 tree? 10 years, 50? Take a look how deforestation has affected the Amazon Forest. Level every tree you can find so you can plop down another mall, asphalt highway, or 500-house subdivision. Then wonder why you see massive flooding in areas that didn't used to get flooded because of it. Anti-environmentalist never look at the long-term picture and effects of killing any animal they choose, or chopping down any tree they see, as long as they can fill their pockets with money to buy Bic Macs, IPhones, or Starbucks coffee.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/200#post_3503073
Go ahead and kill off every animal you see. It's called extinction. Remember back in the 1800's when buffalo was a thriving species? Look at them now. Sure, deforestation is the way to go. Look up the basics of how trees remove CO2 from our atmosphere. Oh right, greenhouse gases are a myth. How many years does it take for a sapling to grow into a 30 - 40 tree? 10 years, 50? Take a look how deforestation has affected the Amazon Forest. Level every tree you can find so you can plop down another mall, asphalt highway, or 500-house subdivision. Then wonder why you see massive flooding in areas that didn't used to get flooded because of it. Anti-environmentalist never look at the long-term picture and effects of killing any animal they choose, or chopping down any tree they see, as long as they can fill their pockets with money to buy Bic Macs, IPhones, or Starbucks coffee.
You environmental lunatics need to decide how we are killing the planet. Driving SUV's or cutting down trees LOL!
When were there more acres of standing forests in the United States, 1912 or 2012?

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/200#post_3503094
You environmental lunatics need to decide how we are killing the planet. Driving SUV's or cutting down trees LOL!
When were there more acres of standing forests in the United States, 1912 or 2012?
In 1912, the majority of homes and building structures were made from wood. Nowadays, it's fabricated concrete, brick and steel. How many acres of land were completely obliterated and covered with cement or asphalt in 1912 as compared to 2012?
I drive a Hybrid, not an SUV. Not my carbon footprint causing the problem. Go cry to the morons who drive the status symbol Humvee's while they complain about $3.00 gas to fill a car up that gets 10MPG.

 

[darthtang aw]

In 1912, the majority of homes and building structures were made from wood.  Nowadays, it's fabricated concrete, brick and steel.  How many acres of land were completely obliterated and covered with cement or asphalt in 1912 as compared to 2012?
I drive a Hybrid, not an SUV.  Not my carbon footprint causing the problem.  Go cry to the morons who drive the status symbol Humvee's while they complain about $3.00 gas to fill a car up that gets 10MPG.
I drive a hummer and don't complain about gas prices...lol.
You are changing the argument. We have more forested land now than we had back then. regardless of the reasons. Is it worth shutting down a business that has been operating for decades to turn it into a "park"? it is no different than telling citizens your home you have owned for ten years is now going to be turned into a wildlife refuge. I don't care that you own it. The government is putting "wildlife" above people. That is the dumbest thing.
Oh,and blame the dumb city folk for the asphalt.
P.S. I get 12.5 mpg.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/200#post_3503107
I drive a hummer and don't complain about gas prices...lol.
You are changing the argument. We have more forested land now than we had back then. regardless of the reasons. Is it worth shutting down a business that has been operating for decades to turn it into a "park"? it is no different than telling citizens your home you have owned for ten years is now going to be turned into a wildlife refuge. I don't care that you own it. The government is putting "wildlife" above people. That is the dumbest thing.
Oh,and blame the dumb city folk for the asphalt.
P.S. I get 12.5 mpg.
Guess that explains your admiration to "Drill, Baby, Drill.." You're a gas company's biggest fan.
Why would a business operation open up in a National Wildlife Preserve and assume that their permit would be extended in impunity? There were never any guarantees that the permit would be renewed. It was all based on assumption. Maybe that's why the previous owners sold the place in 2004. They saw the writing on the wall, and predicted what would happen once the permit expired. The article doesn't state what environmental concerns they had with the operation, except it was harming a useless little Harbor Seal. Could be more to the story than you're led to believe. You see these imminent domain conflicts pop up all the time. Wasn't it some years ago when those homeowners in Massachusetts (or somewhere on the East Coast) that were forced out of their lakeside homes because the local government wanted to use the land to build a shopping mall or something?

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/200#post_3503105
In 1912, the majority of homes and building structures were made from wood. Nowadays, it's fabricated concrete, brick and steel. How many acres of land were completely obliterated and covered with cement or asphalt in 1912 as compared to 2012?
I drive a Hybrid, not an SUV. Not my carbon footprint causing the problem. Go cry to the morons who drive the status symbol Humvee's while they complain about $3.00 gas to fill a car up that gets 10MPG.
We've been planting more trees than harvesting since the 1930's. At the same time we also developed fire suppression that has prevented fires that would have burned millions of acres. We have more areas of forested land now than we did back in the 1800 although some of it isn't as old growth. HOWEVER nobody takes into account things like I dunno, residential development in areas that didn't have trees. Vegas, areas of California, Texas, Right here where I live in Colorado. I live in an area that is grassland by nature but trees have been planted as houses were built. If you look down on the city I live in from a high point you don't even see the houses they have planted so many. The US doesn't have a deforestation issue.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/200#post_3503124
Guess that explains your admiration to "Drill, Baby, Drill.." You're a gas company's biggest fan.
Why would a business operation open up in a National Wildlife Preserve and assume that their permit would be extended in impunity? There were never any guarantees that the permit would be renewed. It was all based on assumption. Maybe that's why the previous owners sold the place in 2004. They saw the writing on the wall, and predicted what would happen once the permit expired. The article doesn't state what environmental concerns they had with the operation, except it was harming a useless little Harbor Seal. Could be more to the story than you're led to believe. You see these imminent domain conflicts pop up all the time. Wasn't it some years ago when those homeowners in Massachusetts (or somewhere on the East Coast) that were forced out of their lakeside homes because the local government wanted to use the land to build a shopping mall or something?
Harbor Seal is an excuse. Even the Liberal Senator wanted this permit renewed. This is another case of "wilderness" for the sake of wilderness, not because of anything being damaged.

 

[darthtang aw]

Guess that explains your admiration to "Drill, Baby, Drill.."  You're a gas company's biggest fan.
Why would a business operation open up in a National Wildlife Preserve and assume that their permit would be extended in impunity?  There were never any guarantees that the permit would be renewed.  It was all based on assumption.  Maybe that's why the previous owners sold the place in 2004.  They saw the writing on the wall, and predicted what would happen once the permit expired.  The article doesn't state what environmental concerns they had with the operation, except it was harming a useless little Harbor Seal.  Could be more to the story than you're led to believe.  You see these imminent domain conflicts pop up all the time.  Wasn't it some years ago when those homeowners in Massachusetts (or somewhere on the East Coast) that were forced out of their lakeside homes because the local government wanted to use the land to build a shopping mall or something?
The business was there BEFORE it was designated a wilderness area in 1976.

 

[uneverno]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/200#post_3503057
I never understood how people canput the livelihood of animals or trees above the livlihood the human species. How many years and how much money will it cost the taxpayers to turn this area back into a "wetland"....and is it worth putting people out of work for it?
Are we not rather dependent on those animals and trees for our survival? Their welfare ought to be one of our highest concerns.
The alternative is creeping incrementalism which results in the eventual and inevitable desertification of our home world.

 

[reefraff]

More insanity
http://tucsoncitizen.com/wryheat/2012/04/12/tombstone-versus-the-united-states/

 

[darthtang aw]

WhichAre we not rather dependent on those animals and trees for our survival? Their welfare ought to be one of our highest concerns.
The alternative is creeping incrementalism which results in the eventual and inevitable desertification of our home world.
I agree with to a degree of common sense. When the environments welfare starts to supersede the welfare of the human race then that is an issue and utter stupidity.
It is just as asinine as the number of animals PETA puts to sleep rather than placing them into the care of human homes. An example of human ignorance and foolishness.
As stated how much land is devoted to forestry as opposed to a century ago. Our country is in no danger of desertification.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/200#post_3503151
Which I agree with to a degree of common sense. When the environments welfare starts to supersede the welfare of the human race then that is an issue and utter stupidity.
It is just as asinine as the number of animals PETA puts to sleep rather than placing them into the care of human homes. An example of human ignorance and foolishness.
As stated how much land is devoted to forestry as opposed to a century ago. Our country is in no danger of desertification.
But if we let the anti-environmentalist like you have their way, all major forests would be obliterated for the sake of the almighty dollar. To think that saving a few acres of prime oceanfront property for the good of not only the environment, but animals, and the multitude of individuals who will have access to enjoy that area, over saving 30 or so jobs and the ability of some family to make a few million bucks is a threat to the human race is a prime example of ignorance and foolishness.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/200#post_3503131
The business was there BEFORE it was designated a wilderness area in 1976.
That doesn't make any sense. If they had a 40 year permit to use the land, that means the permit was issued in 1972. Why wasn't this issued addressed in 1976 when Congress deemed that area as a national wildlife reserve? Did this oyster company think that the Congressional change would just disappear or be forgotten by the time the permit was to expire in 2012? Where was the outrage by the public and anyone else that sided with this oyster company back in 1976? If it wasn't already marked to be eventually turned back over to the National Park Service at some point, why was a permit issued in the first place, instead of just allowing this company to buy the land outright?

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/200#post_3503152
But if we let the anti-environmentalist like you have their way, all major forests would be obliterated for the sake of the almighty dollar. To think that saving a few acres of prime oceanfront property for the good of not only the environment, but animals, and the multitude of individuals who will have access to enjoy that area, over saving 30 or so jobs and the ability of some family to make a few million bucks is a threat to the human race is a prime example of ignorance and foolishness.
Give me a break! Salazar is as big a hack as you. If he were concerned about the bay's environment why did he renew all the leases on the cattle ranches in that very same location? If they were concerned about Harbor Seals they would remove the marinas. Like I said even Finestien is calling BS. The owners sued Salazar today so we'll see what happens.

 

[darthtang aw]

That doesn't make any sense.  If they had a 40 year permit to use the land, that means the permit was issued in 1972.  Why wasn't this issued addressed in 1976 when Congress deemed that area as a national wildlife reserve?  Did this oyster company think that the Congressional change would just disappear or be forgotten by the time the permit was to expire in 2012?  Where was the outrage by the public and anyone else that sided with this oyster company back in 1976?  If it wasn't already marked to be eventually turned back over to the National Park Service at some point, why was a permit issued in the first place, instead of just allowing this company to buy the land outright?
A little research would do you wonders. Several business from ranchers to marinas have been in that area. Their lease permits came due then were reinstated. Since other businesses have been reinstated over the years what was to address. You ask for a new permit, pay the fee and taxes and continue on. They had applied for their permit extention. They were revoked, while others were granted. It is a crock of crap.
This was no small farm. This farm accounted for 40% of the harvested oysters to come out of California. How much revenue does the state lose because of a federal decision? How much will this impact the local economy? compare that with the "studied" environmental harm. Funny, these "studies" I can not find on the web. Even Fienstein who is a proenvironmental advocate states the science of the studies was wrong and false or falsified.
Go to the website of the oyster company and they actually brag about how pristine and beautiful the area is and how they work very hard to keep it that way....
Bionic, I have to ask you...is there any single action the feds of this administration could do and you wouldn't find a way to support it?

 

[darthtang aw]

But if we let the anti-environmentalist like you have their way, all major forests would be obliterated for the sake of the almighty dollar.  To think that saving a few acres of prime oceanfront property for the good of not only the environment, but animals, and the multitude of individuals who will have access to enjoy that area, over saving 30 or so jobs and the ability of some family to make a few million bucks is a threat to the human race is a prime example of ignorance and foolishness.
And this is a prime example of you not fully understanding or knowing the story.
1. this has nothing to do with deforestation...which I can't remember ever saying I support at all costs...but whatever. You like to make crap up to prop your self inflated humanitarian ego up a bit more.
2. This is about oyster farming and protecting "sea" and "sea life" based off questionable science.
3. Rancher and marina permits were reinstated ...I am sure a marina has no effect on the propagation habits of seals.....
4. As a hunter and outdoor lover, I do not support deforrestation for the sake of it. But in the instance such as this when business was already going on and not doing detrimental damage to the environment...I take issue with government interference.