US Aid to Israel or Not?

darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Two words - Super PAC.  How many billions did this "secret society of rich people" contribute to the Obama and Romney campaigns this election season?
This still doesn't answer why vote.
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
Strategic interests. Having 40% of our population draining resources helps no one but those who keep shoveling money for votes. The poverty rate is higher after 50 years of the Great Society and several trillion $. But by helping our allies who are in mutual defense agreements, like Britain, Germany and Israel, we have had almost 70 years of no world wars. I think if any country votes against our interest in the U.N. or is shown to have provided material support to rogue nations, they shouldn't receive any military aid from us. Also, no country on this planet should be receiving $1 in aid for anything but defense, with the exception of large-scale natural disasters and then it should be temporary and only physical goods, no money. To simplify: Military aid for our true allies. No cash aid ever. And only humanitarian supplies for a limited time after natural disaster.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/20#post_3502373
This still doesn't answer why vote.
If you look at this election's results in the Presidential race, voter's in 70% of the states actually didn't have a reason to vote, thanks to the Electoral College. My vote was pointless in Texas. I actually voted for Ron Paul, because I knew Romney was getting the Texas Electoral Votes months before the actual election occurred. You could say the same thing for California and New York, since it was a given those votes would go to Obama. With the new redistricting games the two major parties have been playing in larger states, it's almost a waste of time to vote for a State Representative or a Congressional candidate. You don't think these Super PAC donaters don't have influence and "pull" with the candidates they help get elected?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not#post_3502366
Why not adopt survival of the fittest and let countries make it on their own? The guys who post in these type topics are highly critical of US aid to our own people (welfare, food stamps, HUD, etc, yet its ok to spend billions on other countries?
In a lot of cases I would agree with you. We do have strategic military allies we have to support.
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
Yup,
Saudi and Bahrain? Dictatorships worth supporting.
Iran and Syria? Not so much.
For exactly the same reasons in all cases, that is - as long as the so called revolutionaries support our exploitation of their natural resources, they're ok. If they don't, or worse yet, have nothing we can exploit, then sucks to be them. By the same token, if the revolutionaries are a threat to our exploitation of their resources, then the self same groups we support in one country become our enemies in another.
Perfectly logical position. And completely hypocritical.
One either supports freedom for all, or one is merely paying lip service to the ideal. To support Israeli freedom while simultaneously denying Palestinian freedom, or vice versa, is for whatever reason given, a specious argument.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Yup,
Saudi and Bahrain? Dictatorships worth supporting.
Iran and Syria? Not so much.
For exactly the same reasons in all cases, that is - as long as the so called revolutionaries support our exploitation of their natural resources, they're ok. If they don't, or worse yet, have nothing we can exploit, then sucks to be them. By the same token, if the revolutionaries are a threat to our exploitation of their resources, then the self same groups we support in one country become our enemies in another.
Perfectly logical position. And completely hypocritical.
One either supports freedom for all, or one is merely paying lip service to the ideal. To support Israeli freedom while simultaneously denying Palestinian freedom, or vice versa, is for whatever reason given, a specious argument. 
 
Who is oppressing the Palestinians and denying their freedom?
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/20#post_3502451
Who is oppressing the Palestinians and denying their freedom?
Israel? Isn't this essentially fighting over some small strip of land, who has claim to it, and one country wanting to kick the Jews off of their presumed property? I thought I read somewhere today that France is joining sides with the Palestinians. Not sure to what degree.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/20#post_3502458
Israel? Isn't this essentially fighting over some small strip of land, who has claim to it, and one country wanting to kick the Jews off of their presumed property? I thought I read somewhere today that France is joining sides with the Palestinians. Not sure to what degree.
Israel was the first in a long line of UN screw ups. If they were going to create the country the Palestinians should have been relocated. I think all these decades after the Holocaust the rationale from creating a country for the Jews has been lost on many people.
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/20#post_3502451
Who is oppressing the Palestinians and denying their freedom?
We are.
We provide Israel with roughly $3,000,000,000 a year in "aid" and the Palestinians with approximately $0.00.
It can be argued that our "opponents" fund the Palestinians, but nowhere near at the level we're capable of funding Israel, so might ends up making right.
The point being, who is oppressing the Palestinians is the wrong question to ask. The right question is: Do we believe in self determination and freedom of speech for all, or just for those with whom we agree?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Ya know, I get so tired of this poor Palestinians nonsense. Israel was attacked by how many countries in 1967? God forbid they hold lands that makes their country defensible if the other countries decide to try it again. The Palestinians keep starting all these rocket attacks then people blame Israel for responding? They have shown a lot more restraint in their response than I would if it were my decision.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by uneverno http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/20#post_3502501
That'd be a great argument if the Palestinians were the aggressors taking over Israeli territory.
The fact of the matter is that the Israelis take land from the Palestinians and then claim self defence when the Palestinians get upset about it.
http://rightsandhumanity.tumblr.com/post/3311830268/palestinian-loss-of-land-1946-2000-pre-1947
Israel took territory from Egypt, Syria and Jordan. But that's beside the point. The Palestinians using acts of terror are inexcusable. They would have overwhelming support around the world if they would cut the crap. But what would you expect from a people who wont acknowledge Israel's right to exist?
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Someone correct me if I am wrong,but I thought the original u.n. agreement basically split up isreal between palestinians and Jews in a 50/50 manner. The Arab league rejected the idea and immediately had a "civil" war in Isreal between Palestinians and Jews...Palestinians lost thus lost much of the land they would have had under the agreement. Then every few years an arab nation or group of Nations would try to attack Isreal thus losing and losing more land in the effort.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
We are.
We provide Israel with roughly $3,000,000,000 a year in "aid" and the Palestinians with approximately $0.00.
It can be argued that our "opponents" fund the Palestinians, but nowhere near at the level we're capable of funding Israel, so might ends up making right.
The point being, who is oppressing the Palestinians is the wrong question to ask. The right question is: Do we believe in self determination and freedom of speech for all, or just for those with whom we agree?
 
Nice try, The west bank and Gaza strip (Palestinian and hamas controlled) have recieved 5 billion in aid since the Oslo accords from the U.S. The have received 5.5 billion from the arab countries and EU as well.
Now, last I checked...Isreal doesn't randomly start lobbing rockets into the Gaza Strip or West bank without provocation. Who launched this last series of attacks first?
The U.S. is the single largest donor by far to the U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East. With saudi Arabi and few other arab nations refraining from donating any aid...But they sure love to exploit the palestinian plight don't they....
The problem the palestinians have is they are split between two viewpoints, The PA and Hamas.
Palestinians are one of the highest aid recipients per capita in the world.
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/20#post_3502505
Israel took territory from Egypt, Syria and Jordan. But that's beside the point. The Palestinians using acts of terror are inexcusable. They would have overwhelming support around the world if they would cut the crap. But what would you expect from a people who wont acknowledge Israel's right to exist?
Nor does it excuse the Israelis of using those same tactics against the British, I imagine. The Palestinians had a great teacher.
Kinda like the Mujahedin did.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Well the "right to exist" goes both ways. Israel is basically not allowing Palestine as a nation the right to exist either. Its a vicious cycle over there, and how does that exactly benefit us? Why not just survival of the fittest instead of us throwing aid out to pay for friendships?
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/20#post_3502514
Nice try, The west bank and Gaza strip (Palestinian and hamas controlled) have recieved 5 billion in aid since the Oslo accords from the U.S. The have received 5.5 billion from the arab countries and EU as well.
Now, last I checked...Isreal doesn't randomly start lobbing rockets into the Gaza Strip or West bank without provocation. Who launched this last series of attacks first?
The U.S. is the single largest donor by far to the U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East. With saudi Arabi and few other arab nations refraining from donating any aid...But they sure love to exploit the palestinian plight don't they....
The problem the palestinians have is they are split between two viewpoints, The PA and Hamas.
Palestinians are one of the highest aid recipients per capita in the world.
Point taken,
we give to Israel almost 10x what we give Palestine and the Arab/EU contribution cuts that to 5x. That makes for a much fairer fight.
I don't know who attacked first. Is moving in to someone's territory, bulldozing what's there, building houses, and then a wall to keep the disenfranchised out, considered an attack? I mean, no shots were fired, right? By the same token, for the Palestinians to engage in a direct military conflict in order to protect themselves does seem to be a suicidal move, so I guess they should just suck it up and take the abuse. Kinda like we expected Native Americans to.
You'll get no debate from me on the Saudi point. I agree entirely.
The per capita point, though, is a bit on the irrelevant side, as in neither case, does the aid actually reach individuals, and given the Israeli blockade, that money isn't useful for food or fuel anyway.
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by uneverno http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/20#post_3502614
Point taken,
we give to Israel almost 10x what we give Palestine and the Arab/EU contribution cuts that to 5x. That makes for a much fairer fight.
I don't know who attacked first. Is moving in to someone's territory, bulldozing what's there, building houses, and then a wall to keep the disenfranchised out, considered an attack? I mean, no shots were fired, right? By the same token, for the Palestinians to engage in a direct military conflict in order to protect themselves does seem to be a suicidal move, so I guess they should just suck it up and take the abuse. Kinda like we expected Native Americans to.
You'll get no debate from me on the Saudi point. I agree entirely.
The per capita point, though, is a bit on the irrelevant side, as in neither case, does the aid actually reach individuals, and given the Israeli blockade, that money isn't useful for food or fuel anyway.
1) 90% of the "Palestinians" are from Jordan and Syria. They were driven out by their ever so caring Muslim brothers. 2) According to Babylonian and Roman writings(not to mention the Bible), the Israelites have been there since before the bronze era. 3) And you think we should give one damn for the folks who danced in the street when we were attacked on 9/11?
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Gaza and the West Bank have be GIVEN to the Palestinians. When Israel withdrew this last time the did not destroy anything they even left the large agricultural greenhouses intact. The Palestinians destroyed them after Israel pulled out. The aid from the last 8 years has gone directly to the Palestinians. Iran has been funneling weapons to the Palestinians. This is where the acquired rockets that can hit inside Jerusalem from hazard and the West Bank. Palestinians aren't interested in peace. When given the land they asked for and still attacking like this that point should be obvious.
 
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