US Aid to Israel or Not?

[uneverno]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/40#post_3502722
I didn't think you made anything up. The notion that the country that has engaged in numerous terrorist acts against Israel would lodge war crimes complaints against their victims is laughable.
A) It's not a generally recognized country - yet.
B) The terrorist acts are mutual - Israeli helicopter gunship attacks are about as indiscriminate as our drone attacks are - inflicting far more civilian casualties than justifiable under the Geneva conventions. That the Palestinians are guilty of war crimes is unquestionable. That doesn't exonerate the Israelis by any stretch of the imagination.
C) Let's not ignore our own complicity in the conflict. Without our financial and governmental (i.e. you and me) approval, the conflict would be far different in nature. The victims are both the Israeli and the Palestinian civilians. The criminals are their respective governments and, by proxy, those who support them.
All in all, however, the Palestinians are the far and away more oppressed of the two.

 

[darthtang aw]

A) It's not a generally recognized country - yet.
B) The terrorist acts are mutual - Israeli helicopter gunship attacks are about as indiscriminate as our drone attacks are - inflicting far more civilian casualties than justifiable under the Geneva conventions. That the Palestinians are guilty of war crimes is unquestionable. That doesn't exonerate the Israelis by any stretch of the imagination.
C) Let's not ignore our own complicity in the conflict. Without our financial and governmental (i.e. you and me) approval, the conflict would be far different in nature. The victims are both the Israeli and the Palestinian civilians. The criminals are their respective governments and, by proxy, those who support them. 
All in all, however, the Palestinians are the far and away more oppressed of the two.
Has anyone ever tried to exterminate the palestians? Do the Palestinians have country calling and demanding for their extermination? Oh yeah, they are oppressed on a level to Isreal.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by uneverno http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/60#post_3502750
A) It's not a generally recognized country - yet.
B) The terrorist acts are mutual - Israeli helicopter gunship attacks are about as indiscriminate as our drone attacks are - inflicting far more civilian casualties than justifiable under the Geneva conventions. That the Palestinians are guilty of war crimes is unquestionable. That doesn't exonerate the Israelis by any stretch of the imagination.
C) Let's not ignore our own complicity in the conflict. Without our financial and governmental (i.e. you and me) approval, the conflict would be far different in nature. The victims are both the Israeli and the Palestinian civilians. The criminals are their respective governments and, by proxy, those who support them.
All in all, however, the Palestinians are the far and away more oppressed of the two.
Geneva conventions only apply to those who follow the rules of war. Terrorists don't meet the standard.

 

[uneverno]

Reef,
Neither do terrorizors, so I guess we're good on that account. Thank goodness there are no legal restrictions to the brutality.
Are my remaing points counterable?
Darth, seriously?
Israeli's illegally occupy Palestinian land. The Palestinians have no legal recourse - and yet they are the ones branded terrororists.
Calling the Palestinians terrororists is the same as calling Native Americans terrororists for retaliating when we violated the treaties telling them where they could live on the land we took from them. It's a ridiculous argument.
As for a country calling for their extermination, that's kind of how geopolitical enmity works. That same Nation has called for our destruction as well. "Thunderbolts and lightning, very very frightening." Iran couldn't even begin to challenge Israel, let alone us.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/40#post_3502744
. The problem is with Egypt, Syria and Jordan. They are going to have to all 3 officially acknowledge Israels right to exist before any lasting solution can be worked out. Israel is going to hold the lands they need to keep a strategic advantage until they are assured they wont be attacked again. Until then it will be the same ol crap.
Egypt and Jordon have already officially acknowledged Israel's right to exist via peace treaties with Israel.
Now we have Palestine. Here is a formal letter recognizing Israel twenty years ago:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Israel-PLO%20Recognition%20-%20Exchange%20of%20Letters%20betwe
Now Israel wants the entire Arab world to recognize Israel's right to exist as a state. If not, too bad Palestine. Maybe they should both be required to recognize each other's right to exist, since the land was given to them with that understanding to begin with.
If you start to study the whole history, then the usual propaganda that FoxNews and Rush tells us starts to take on a different color.

 

[darthtang aw]

Reef,
Neither do terrorizors, so I guess we're good on that account. Thank goodness there are no legal restrictions to the brutality.
Are my remaing points counterable?
 
Darth, seriously?
Israeli's illegally occupy Palestinian land. The Palestinians have no legal recourse - and yet they are the ones branded terrororists.
Calling the Palestinians terrororists is the same as calling Native Americans terrororists for retaliating when we violated the treaties telling them where they could live on the land we took from them. It's a ridiculous argument.
As for a country calling for their extermination, that's kind of how geopolitical enmity works. That same Nation has called for our destruction as well. "Thunderbolts and lightning, very very frightening." Iran couldn't even begin to challenge Israel, let alone us.
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=520228
Ilegal occupation?

 

[uneverno]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/60#post_3502772
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=520228
Ilegal occupation?
Are you kidding?
http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-israel-housing-west-bank-20121130,0,2330512.story
It's been one land grab after another since the original British grab from the Palestinians after WWII.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by uneverno http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/60#post_3502767
Reef,
Neither do terrorizors, so I guess we're good on that account. Thank goodness there are no legal restrictions to the brutality.
Are my remaing points counterable?
Darth, seriously?
Israeli's illegally occupy Palestinian land. The Palestinians have no legal recourse - and yet they are the ones branded terrororists.
Calling the Palestinians terrororists is the same as calling Native Americans terrororists for retaliating when we violated the treaties telling them where they could live on the land we took from them. It's a ridiculous argument.
As for a country calling for their extermination, that's kind of how geopolitical enmity works. That same Nation has called for our destruction as well. "Thunderbolts and lightning, very very frightening." Iran couldn't even begin to challenge Israel, let alone us.
The only gunship attack I've seen recently was amazingly targeted when they took out a Hamas Military leader in response to the rocket attacks. The videos I HAVE SEEN shows Israel targeting rocket launch sites. Now if Israel has been randomly blowing the hell out of neighborhoods from the sky that is wrong. If the Palestinians are launching rockets from residential neighborhoods and Israel blows them up and there are civilians hurt of killed who is to blame, Israel or the Palestinians?
As far as our support without it Israel would have been demolished decades ago. At this point we need to stand behind Israel 100% as far as militarily backing them up but I think it's time we use the threat of pulling financial aid as a way to make them cut the crap with the settlements in the occupied areas.

 

[beth]

I would say that we back other countries based on a reason to back them, not just because we've been doing it so far so why not just mindlessly continue doing it. Or better still, we could just MOB.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/60#post_3502815
I would say that we back other countries based on a reason to back them, not just because we've been doing it so far so why not just mindlessly continue doing it. Or better still, we could just MOB.
Yeah, we had no reason to back a Jewish state in the 1940's and 50's. How many were massacred by Hitler and Stalin? Now we are in a corner as far as Military support. Do you think 0bama wants to back Israel? Most of his base supports the Palestinians. He has no choice. Without our backing it's only a matter of time before Israel is attacked by one of the other countries there and there is little doubt they will respond with nukes. That isn't good for anyone.

 

[beth]

And who gave them the nukes? Why would the USA give anyone our military technology?? Geez, even the Star Trek people knew better then to do that.
Also, while the Jewish people did suffer horribly under Hitler, I'm not sure how that connects to giving them a state, nukes, military technology--especially 60 years later. The Jews suffered horribly but there were millions of others who were also exterminated who got nothing from us or anyone else. Actually, we allowed those people to be taken over by the Soviet Union as a reward. The Poles suffered horribly at the hands of Hitler. Their country was used as one big concentration camp and they ended up given over to Stalin.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/60#post_3502846
And who gave them the nukes? Why would the USA give anyone our military technology?? Geez, even the Star Trek people knew better then to do that.
Also, while the Jewish people did suffer horribly under Hitler, I'm not sure how that connects to giving them a state, nukes, military technology--especially 60 years later. The Jews suffered horribly but there were millions of others who were also exterminated who got nothing from us or anyone else. Actually, we allowed those people to be taken over by the Soviet Union as a reward. The Poles suffered horribly at the hands of Hitler. Their country was used as one big concentration camp and they ended up given over to Stalin.
I don't know that we knowingly gave Israel the technology for nukes. As many spies as the soviets had in our government I am sure Israel had a lot more. The Israel problem was around before Hitler, he just provided the final push for it to be addressed.

 

[beth]

So, phase two of Israel's reprisal for the UN decision is to withhold 120 million $ collected by Israel from the Palestinians in the form of taxation. Instead the money will go to pay debts to Israeli companies.
I wonder why Israel doesn't just leave the UN since it was the UN who decided that Palestine was now a state?
I wonder what the Obama administration will do now that the status-quo has fallen apart?
I wonder if the UN feels that it should start imposing sanctions against Israel?

 

[reefraff]

The UN is as much part of the worlds problems as a solution, if not more. That statehood vote creates more problems IMHO. The borders are unworkable, they need to figure out Jerusalem. You have different factions of Palestinians controlling Gaza and the west bank. It's just a real mess.
If the UN weren't so corrupt and hapless I'd say put them in charge of Jerusalem so that's off the table.

 

[darthtang aw]

Lets ask this question. What would it take to make the Palestinians happy? Or atleast content. Any ideas from those siding with the Palestinians in this conflict?

 

[beth]

Just to be clear, I'm actually on the side of the USA stop being involved in policing the world and giving money and assets away. What the Israelis and Palestinians do is their business.
I agree with you, reef, the boarders between the two factions is absolutely insane. Who ever in a millions years thought that was an ok idea was smoking a payload of drugs.
The Palestinians say they want independence and self-governance. That is what everyone wants for themselves, right? Israel wants a buffer between its country and other hostile countries, and the Palestinians are that political and geographic buffer. I would say that both sides be forced to come to the table and mutually agree on the boarders and the transition to full statehood; and, if they can't do that on their own, then let them know that the UN will do it. No more buddy-system for either side.
Neither side are blameless innocents. Both are provocative and try to leverage power against the other. The problem is that it's cost the USA too much at this point, and I think Americans are getting tired of it.

 

[reefraff]

Without being there to see the infrastructure it's hard to say what would be acceptable but it seems to me the Gaza strip should be handed over to Israel and everyone moved out in exchange for more land along the Syrian border that would expand the current west bank so there is one contiguous Palestinian territory.

 

[beth]

Palestinians might be upset about giving up access to the Med. Sea. That area could be an exceptional import/export area if not under siege by Israel. But I'd say let the West Bank form the statehood under the PLO, leaving Gaza in status quo. Hamas is in control there anyway and that is where the rockets are coming from. With an actual state in the West Bank, your average Palestinians who are not interested in martyrdom or sacrificing their families will likely start to migrate to the West Bank.
What authority does the UN have in giving the Palestinians land in Syria?

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/60#post_3502901
Palestinians might be upset about giving up access to the Med. Sea. That area could be an exceptional import/export area if not under siege by Israel. But I'd say let the West Bank form the statehood under the PLO, leaving Gaza in status quo. Hamas is in control there anyway and that is where the rockets are coming from. With an actual state in the West Bank, your average Palestinians who are not interested in martyrdom or sacrificing their families will likely start to migrate to the West Bank.
What authority does the UN have in giving the Palestinians land in Syria?
I was talking about Israel giving up some of their land along the Syrian border. Gaza remaining as it is now isn't a viable option. Perhaps turning it back over to Egypt and make them responsible to keep the Palestinians in line there.

 

[beth]

Sounds like a good plan but don't think Hamas or Israel will agree. Not sure Egypt would want the headache either! LOL
I'll be honest, this decades old demand of requiring everyone to acknowledge Israel's right to exist is weird to me. Did the USA demand this from Great Britain after our independence? I've never heard of any country doing this. You subjugate people, then demand that they acknowledge that you exist as a condition of moving forward. Everyone knows Israel exists, and I'm sure the Palestinians know this more then anyone else whether they like it or not.
Just get on with it. If the two sides are seated at the table, supposedly trying to come up with a plan for each, then just get on with it.