US Aid to Israel or Not?

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/60#post_3502930
Sounds like a good plan but don't think Hamas or Israel will agree. Not sure Egypt would want the headache either! LOL
I'll be honest, this decades old demand of requiring everyone to acknowledge Israel's right to exist is weird to me. Did the USA demand this from Great Britain after our independence? I've never heard of any country doing this. You subjugate people, then demand that they acknowledge that you exist as a condition of moving forward. Everyone knows Israel exists, and I'm sure the Palestinians know this more then anyone else whether they like it or not.
Just get on with it. If the two sides are seated at the table, supposedly trying to come up with a plan for each, then just get on with it.
Acknowledging Israel's right to exist is important because many of those countries have made the destruction of Israel a policy in the past. Because of that Israel seeks an overwhelming military advantage which in turns scares the living bejebus out of their neighbors.

 

[uneverno]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/60#post_3502803
The only gunship attack I've seen recently was amazingly targeted when they took out a Hamas Military leader in response to the rocket attacks. The videos I HAVE SEEN shows Israel targeting rocket launch sites. Now if Israel has been randomly blowing the hell out of neighborhoods from the sky that is wrong. If the Palestinians are launching rockets from residential neighborhoods and Israel blows them up and there are civilians hurt of killed who is to blame, Israel or the Palestinians?
As far as our support without it Israel would have been demolished decades ago. At this point we need to stand behind Israel 100% as far as militarily backing them up but I think it's time we use the threat of pulling financial aid as a way to make them cut the crap with the settlements in the occupied areas.
What we have been shown (i.e. what you have seen) is far from complete.
Which child is to blame is the wrong question to ask. All that ever ends up coming down to is which kid hollers loudest. It's not the kids (Israel and Palestine both) which are to blame. The blame lies with we who manipulate them.
Without our support, (more specifically Britain's) Israel woudn't have been resurrected in the first place. Our fearless leaders are playing a game of Risk - with real human beings - to which end, Israel was intended to be a locus of hatred so that Arab resources could be conveniently exploited.
To side with the 1% is to side against humanity. We don't need to side with Israel over Palestine. In fact, it's a huge mistake to do so.
Who are we to believe, the manipulated or the manipulators? Divide and conquer is the name of the game.
What we need to do is side with people over despots.

 

[reefraff]

I will never side with anyone who purposely targets women and kids. Now if Israel has been doing that I wouldn't support them either.

 

[jerthunter]

"How can you shoot innocent women and children like that?"
"It's easy, you just don't lead them as much."

 

[beth]

I don't think Israel is shooting at neighborhoods just for the hell of it, or indiscriminately, but I do think they don't loose sleep when bad things happen either. Also, I do believe many bad things happen with Israeli soldiers on the ground.
http://www.antiwar.com/ips/kesskloch.php?articleid=14431
The author of this article was an Israeli journalist, BTW.

 

[uneverno]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/80#post_3503067
I will never side with anyone who purposely targets women and kids. Now if Israel has been doing that I wouldn't support them either.
One has to bear in mind that "purposely" is a relative term. Israeli weapons are either designed by us and improved upon by them or designed exclusively by them as those designs are largely superior to ours. Palestinian weapons are generally designed by Iran and used as is. To attempt any sort of comparison is something of a joke.
Who has the greater opportunity in this childish conflict to avoid civilian casualties is the question, therefore, to ask. The casualty ratio generally runs about 25 to 1 Palestinians to Israelis killed.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by uneverno http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/80#post_3503971
One has to bear in mind that "purposely" is a relative term. Israeli weapons are either designed by us and improved upon by them or designed exclusively by them as those designs are largely superior to ours. Palestinian weapons are generally designed by Iran and used as is. To attempt any sort of comparison is something of a joke.
Who has the greater opportunity in this childish conflict to avoid civilian casualties is the question, therefore, to ask. The casualty ratio generally runs about 25 to 1 Palestinians to Israelis killed.
The Palestinians "fighters" purposely hide their stuff in residential areas and at the same time target residential areas. You can make all the excuses you want but they are nothing but terrorists plain and simple.

 

[acrylic51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerthunter http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/80#post_3503111
"How can you shoot innocent women and children like that?"
"It's easy, you just don't lead them as much."

Haven't heard that in awhile........
Seriously though women, children, innocent bystanders IMO are just the cost of war........What better way to try to undermine and weaken your enemy, but continue to hit them where it hurts......

 

[uneverno]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/80#post_3503978
The Palestinians "fighters" purposely hide their stuff in residential areas and at the same time target residential areas. You can make all the excuses you want but they are nothing but terrorists plain and simple.
Ok, I'll buy that. In exactly the same way that everytime the US cavalry defeated a pocket of Native American resistance, that they'd missed distributing smallpox infested blankets to, it was called a victory, and every time the Native Americans defeated the US cavalry it was called a massacre.
"The greatest spoil of war is the writing of its history."
Again

 

[reefraff]

What year did the "enlightened" nations of the earth come together and create the accepted rules of war again?

 

[uneverno]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/80#post_3504193
What year did the "enlightened" nations of the earth come together and create the accepted rules of war again?
How is that a material question?
If those who signed on actually did what they, themselves, outlined, we could have a discussion.
The fact of the matter is, no one has actually adhered to what they agreed to.
What would you like me to say?
The process fell apart because they violated the agreement?
We did too though.
How are we more justified in violating a treaty than "they" are?

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by uneverno http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/80#post_3504195
How is that a material question?
If those who signed on actually did what they, themselves, outlined, we could have a discussion.
The fact of the matter is, no one has actually adhered to what they agreed to.
What would you like me to say?
The process fell apart because they violated the agreement?
We did too though.
How are we more justified in violating a treaty than "they" are?
The difference is in modern times the world countries got together and created rules of war countries are expected to adhere to. Among them is how you treat POW's, Not targeting non combatants etc. The United States has granted the protection to terrorists who under the rules of the Conventions don't meet the standards so tell me again how bad WE are.
So Israel builds another housing development on disputed land and you think the proper response is to lob rockets into Israeli neighborhoods........... Whatever. I suppose civilized people who think a more proper response might be, I dunno, direct the rockets at the illegal construction areas at night while nobody is there are the one's using twisted logic.
I am done.

 

[uneverno]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/80#post_3504216
The difference is in modern times the world countries got together and created rules of war countries are expected to adhere to. Among them is how you treat POW's, Not targeting non combatants etc. The United States has granted the protection to terrorists who under the rules of the Conventions don't meet the standards so tell me again how bad WE are.
So Israel builds another housing development on disputed land and you think the proper response is to lob rockets into Israeli neighborhoods........... Whatever. I suppose civilized people who think a more proper response might be, I dunno, direct the rockets at the illegal construction areas at night while nobody is there are the one's using twisted logic.
I am done.
No, I think the proper action is not to build on disputed land in the first place. To do so is an act of aggression. The response to the action is an act of desperation - the Palestinians have no legal recourse. They are not a recognized nation, therefore, they are evidently, also not people. Pretty much like Native Americans...
As for not targeting non-combatants? Perhaps we should poll the civilians of Iraq, Yemen, Pakistan and Afghanistan as to who is targeting whom. To use the Conventions as an excuse for "Droning" civilians is a pathetic argument.

 

[darthtang aw]

SoNo, I think the proper action is not to build on disputed land. The response is a result of the action after all.
As for not targeting non-combatants? Perhaps we should poll the the civilians of Iraq, Yemen, Pakistan and Afghanistan as to who is targeting whom.
so if I build a wall on the border of my neighbors property and he thinks it is his property it is ok to launch rockets at my house, family, and friends? Ok gotcha.

 

[uneverno]

Quote:
Originally Posted by uneverno http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/80#post_3504368
No, I think the proper action is not to build on disputed land in the first place. To do so is an act of aggression. The response to the action is an act of desperation - the Palestinians have no legal recourse. They are not a recognized nation, therefore, they are evidently, also not people. Pretty much like Native Americans...
As for not targeting non-combatants? Perhaps we should poll the civilians of Iraq, Yemen, Pakistan and Afghanistan as to who is targeting whom. To use the Conventions as an excuse for "Droning" civilians is a pathetic argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/80#post_3504370
So so if I build a wall on the border of my neighbors property and he thinks it is his property it is ok to launch rockets at my house, family, and friends? Ok gotcha.
Not even remotely comparable. Your posit presumes equal rights under the law which is nowhere close to the case.

 

[uneverno]

To hold a people accountable to standards which we routinely violate ourselves is the essence of both injustice and hypocrisy.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/80#post_3504370
So if I build a wall on the border of my neighbors property and he thinks it is his property it is ok to launch rockets at my house, family, and friends? Ok gotcha.
If Russia decided to build settlements within Alaska, what would be USA response?
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-stalling-release-of-report-proving-west-bank-outpost-built-on-palestinian-land-1.395218
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17505709

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/80#post_3504389
If Russia decided to build settlements within Alaska, what would be USA response?
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-stalling-release-of-report-proving-west-bank-outpost-built-on-palestinian-land-1.395218
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17505709
The "disputed land" are areas Israel took over as a result of war. Hardly comparable to Russia invading Alaska. A lot of Mexicans consider parts of the Southwestern US part of Mexico. You be OK if they started lobbing rockets into San Diego to get "their" land back?

 

[beth]

You obviously did not read the articles I posted.
The Israeli government allows encroachment into Palestinian lands, then raises the "poor me" hand when they get attacked by Hamass.
Some may say they do this on purpose to provoke Palestinian militants so as to forever push back any headway toward a Palestinian state.
Does it even matter that the UN has passed numerous resolutions and that the International Court of Justice has issued rulings that the portions of the Israeli West Bank barrier that are located within occupied Palestinian territories are illegal under international law? And yet, because the USA unequivocally backs Israel, nothing is done about anything....until recently when the UN finally got a bit brave. And, the response was that Israel should proceed with more settlements in illegally occupied West Bank. The USA should lead the UN in taking control over occupied lands to act as a interim barrier between Israel and Palestine and to mediate a final solution to this big mess. Israel has no vested interest in resolving this and therefore should not be in control of it.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393526/us-aid-to-israel-or-not/80#post_3504411
You obviously did not read the articles I posted.
The Israeli government allows encroachment into Palestinian lands, then raises the "poor me" hand when they get attacked by Hamass.
Some may say they do this on purpose to provoke Palestinian militants so as to forever push back any headway toward a Palestinian state.
Does it even matter that the UN has passed numerous resolutions and that the International Court of Justice has issued rulings that the portions of the Israeli West Bank barrier that are located within occupied Palestinian territories are illegal under international law? And yet, because the USA unequivocally backs Israel, nothing is done about anything....until recently when the UN finally got a bit brave. And, the response was that Israel should proceed with more settlements in illegally occupied West Bank. The USA should lead the UN in taking control over occupied lands to act as a interim barrier between Israel and Palestine and to mediate a final solution to this big mess. Israel has no vested interest in resolving this and therefore should not be in control of it.
Yeah but that's the point I've been trying to make since the beginning of this thread. If the Palestinians would cut the terrorist crap they would have strong support from even people in this country. Do you seriously believe targeting neighborhoods with rockets is a proper response to Israel building illegal housing developments? Hell, blow up the housing developments before they are finished. I could understand that.